Was King David a good example for Christians?

[Strong in Him]

We are NT Christians not OT Israelites. Hence Jesus is our example to follow, not David.

So you've answered your own question.
We can still learn from David, as we can from almost anyone. David wrote Psalms of praise to God; Psalms, which we still use today.

 

[saffron park]

It might include that. But I am very skeptical that Bathsheba was a willing participant. She did not need to be in order for David to do whatever he wanted to her.

Of course David wanted Uriah to go home and sleep with Bathsheba in the hopes that he and others would assume the baby was conceived while he was home from war. Clearly that concern trumped the one about her telling Uriah about it. Given how hard it is for victims of sexual assault to speak up even today, I am guessing that David wasn’t so worried about that. By the way, the “wash your feet” language that David uses over and over when speaking to Uriah was a euphemism for having sex, or at least that is what I was taught by a Jewish Studies professor.

I just don't see any reason from the text to believe that it wasn't consensual.

 

[Vanellus]

David is also used as a positive example in the new testament (Hebrews 11:32)

Good people in the Old Testament don't become bad people after the coming of Christ. Why would they?

Rather Christ allows us to even more perfectly appreciate the virtue of His servants that came before Him.

The connections in Hebrews 11 are not made explicit but let's say for argument's sake, it means David by faith "routed foreign armies". But, as has been written elsewhere in this thread, David was a man of violence who spent a lot of time smiting i.e. killing. Is that a good example for Christians to aspire to? "Bad" is not a word I have used. But what does it mean in this context? "All have sinned". We are all "bad".

 

[Vanellus]

I quoted it to show that David did other things and had other battles etc, rather than being accredited with killing tens of thousands, after killing only Goliath.


"As the troops were returning home ..... " - you seem to be assuming that that was the same day, or the day after, at least. Have you read 1 Samuel 17:52-53? David killed Goliath, the Israelites chased the Philistines, and scattered the dead bodies all along the road, then they plundered the camp. This, and 1 Sam 18:5, clearly implies there were several battles and victories for David.


I didn't comment on Acts 1:6-8, and it is irrelevant.
The question of your thread is whether or not David was a good example for Christians. The short answer - which most people have said - is that Jesus is a way better example for Christians.
We can learn from David's story: he was chosen by God, called a man after God's own heart, sinned, big time - but repented and continued to believe in, and serve, God. But I wouldn't follow his example of lust, seduction and murder. He wasn't perfect; only Jesus has been that.


No, but King David was living around 3-4000 years ago. He lived in a time when they went to war on, and killed, their enemies; this was the only way of being rid of them.
Things might be a tad different now; don't you think?

Well obviously.
Again, what has that got to do with whether or not we can learn from King David's example or his story?

"Have you read" questions are a subtle kind of genetic fallacy; attacking me rather than addressing the issues. I had referred to the Philistines "fleeing" in the OP. There is no mention of "several battles". in this passage before they return to Jerusalem. That is your assumption.

Are you also assuming that 1 Sam 17:53-18:9 is in strict chronological order? In fact we know it isn't since 17:57-58 refers to an incident after David had returned with Goliath's head. Jonathan witnesses this incident and has time to become "one in spirit with David", make a covenant with David and give him his tunic, sword, bow and belt. Then we read that David was successful on every mission and was given high rank in the army. Clearly all this happened over a significant period of time, far beyond the post Goliath chasing of the fleeing Philistines.

In v6 we revert to the events immediately following the killing of Goliath and the chasing of the fleeing Philistines.

You may think Acts1:6-8 is irrelevant but I disagree. It tells us something very important about how Jesus thought of the kingdom in a very different way from his disciples.

Yes, David was a man of his time. Decapitated heads were being displayed in London as late as the 17th century. Jesus lived on this earth 2000 years ago but was not constrained by the times he lived in.

We are NT Christians not OT Israelites and so we should live according to the kingdom principles espoused by Jesus.

 

[Vanellus]

I just don't see any reason from the text to believe that it wasn't consensual.

When the king sends messengers to fetch her what choice did Bathsheba have? There may have been no need to hold a knife to her throat but that is not the same as Bathsheba having a free choice in the matter.

 

[Strong in Him]

We are NT Christians not OT Israelites and so we should live according to the kingdom principles espoused by Jesus.

Well exactly. I don't even know what this discussion is about - nor why I entered it.

"Was King David a good example for Christians?"
There weren't any Christians around at the time, and not for about 3000 years afterwards.
Do we follow David? No, we follow Jesus.
David was called, by God, a man after God's own heart. We can learn from his mistakes - especially when he tried to hide his sin from God. We can follow his example and his zeal for standing up for God against a blaspheming pagan, not caring that others laugh at us.
But our ultimate, and immediate, example is Jesus; of course it is.

Did you have a particular reason for asking, or did you just want us to say, "no, David was a rotten sinner"?

 

[Vanellus]

Well exactly. I don't even know what this discussion is about - nor why I entered it.

"Was King David a good example for Christians?"
There weren't any Christians around at the time, and not for about 3000 years afterwards.
Do we follow David? No, we follow Jesus.
David was called, by God, a man after God's own heart. We can learn from his mistakes - especially when he tried to hide his sin from God. We can follow his example and his zeal for standing up for God against a blaspheming pagan, not caring that others laugh at us.
But our ultimate, and immediate, example is Jesus; of course it is.

Did you have a particular reason for asking, or did you just want us to say, "no, David was a rotten sinner"?

The reason for why i started the thread is given in the OP.

"There weren't any Christians around at the time" What is the relevance of this remark? It is a non sequitur. Christians can read about and be preached to about David. Presumably you don't think Christians should decapitate "blaspheming pagans"?

I haven't called David a "rotten sinner" despite your quotation marks. But aren't we all rotten sinners?

 

[Strong in Him]

"There weren't any Christians around at the time" What is the relevance of this remark?

The title of the thread is "Was King David a good example for Christians?" That implies "was he a good example for Christians of that time?" which clearly doesn't make sense.
Your title should be "Is King David a good example for Christians to follow today?"
But you'd still be given the same answer - we don't follow David, we follow Jesus."

I haven't called David a "rotten sinner" despite your quotation marks. But aren't we all rotten sinners?

No, but you agreed with someone who said that he was "downright repugnant".
Yes, we are all sinners.

 

[Vanellus]

So your quotation marks were a mistake since I never used those words you ascribed to me.
Also I gave that post a like not an agree - they are not the same.
Do you think that sleeping with his wife, Bathsheba, and having Uriah killed not repugnant?

David lived in the past.
e.g. was the life Socrates led a good example for philosophers today?

Is pointless nit-picking all you have to contribute?

 

[Bobber]

I recently read The Making of a Man of God by Alan Redpath which is a series of homilies drawn from the life of David. Now to be fair, Redpath says in his introduction that the Bible doesn't flatter its heroes, and he does make frequent reference to the life of the much greater Son of David i.e. Jesus in the gospels. Each homily is preceded by extracts of accounts in 1 and 2 Samuel, but as I read these accounts I started to think more and more that David was not so much an example to be followed but in many ways an example to be avoided.

Fee and Stuart make a good point in their How to Read the Bible for all its Worth that the OT narratives are not intended to be moralising but as an account of God's dealings with his chosen people (which is still profitable for us).

A good example that shows the difference between David and Jesus is

As they danced, they sang: “Saul has slain his thousands, and David his tens of thousands.” 1 Sam 18:7

An odd verse since it follows on from David killing Goliath and the Philistines fleeing. So at this point we only know that David had killed one person not tens of thousands, though that one person's demise led to many other Philistines dying as they fled the scene. Maybe we can take this as exaggeration by the women of Israel - the point of which is to start the theme of Saul's jealousy of David.

Contrast this with:
So when they came together, they asked Him, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”
Jesus replied, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” Acts 1:6-8

The disciples could well have added "as in King David's time". But it is clear that Jesus' idea of the kingdom is very different from that of his disciples. But surely the disciples' idea of the kingdom follows on naturally from the accounts in the OT - their view is reasonable in that context, but shows they, as yet, hadn't fully grasped the significance of Jesus' life and teachings.

There are other examples in David's life which are certainly not to be followed by Christians today but I'll leave those for later.

About all the battles and things keep in mind they were called by God to drive out the inhabitants of the land and much could be said about that.

Young David though I think was so noble and honored by God. The things later make me sad about him. OK the adultery with Bathsheba not good but just the way that went down. He set up for her husband a soldier in a extremely dangerous mission. to be done in .....sort of goes against the soldiers standing with all other soldiers having each other's back. There's just something about that where the whole army and those who serve would feel betrayed.

 

[Aaron112]

So at this point we only know that David had killed one person not tens of thousands, though that one person's demise led to many other Philistines dying as they fled the scene. Maybe we can take this as exaggeration by the women of Israel - the point of which is to start the theme of Saul's jealousy of David.

I always thought the song was sung AFTER David had , by Yahweh's Direction, killed tens of thousands of the enemy , or at least seemingly that many. I never thought it was just after killing Goliath.

 

[Aaron112]

Do you think that sleeping with his wife, Bathsheba, and having Uriah killed not repugnant?

It was a sin, but not repugnant. Perhaps the word has different definitions though ?

 

[Aaron112]

.sort of goes against the soldiers standing with all other soldiers having each other's back. There's just something about that where the whole army and those who serve would feel betrayed.

To me that is a modern, or more modern, way, a wrong way, of thinking that was not
at the time of King David et al.

 

[Aaron112]

e.g. was the life Socrates led a good example for philosophers today?

No.

 

[Aaron112]

It might include that. But I am very skeptical that Bathsheba was a willing participant. She did not need to be in order for David to do whatever he wanted to her.

It looks in Scripture like God chose her to be in the genealogy of Jesus.
Likewise, because of her obedience, by God's choice or determination, she is one of the best known women thoughout all history, known in every nation where-ever the Gospel is known.

 

[Aaron112]

That was an ongoing sin against her, not just a one-time event. Imagine her misery.

Not at all.
Not according to anything God the Creator ever Said, Says, or even hinted at.
Quite contrary to what you post, she was blessed beyond almost all women , if not all women, today even, as well as then.

 

[Aaron112]

Or am I misunderstanding?

There ya' go, yes.
Since most all religion and most all the people misunderstand, and are taught in way that they cannot gain understanding, instead of being alone in misunderstanding, there are multitudes who do not have a clue ....

 

[Aaron112]

There are other examples in David's life which are certainly not to be followed by Christians today but I'll leave those for later.

Do you think or believe that everyone following Jesus, abiding in Jesus' Life today,
ought to follow Jesus , as written, wherever Jesus goes , with trusting living faith in Jesus and in the Father ?

 

[Fireinfolding]

This here,

Exodus 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

And here it shows that despising the commandment of the LORD is equated with despising the LORD

2Sam 2:9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.

2Sam 12:10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.

So the sword shall never depart from his house, and the child born unto thee shall die (as we know) even though he is forgiven his sin

2Sam 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.

This one right here speaks to this thing (with the wife of Uriah) as an occasion to blaspheme

Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme

Which, when it come to wives it says here likewise,

Titus 2:3 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

In relation to another mans wife in respects to what David did which had given an occasion to blaspheme is spoken of similarly in relation to wives and their obedience to "their own" husbands in Titus, when it comes to the word of God not being blasphemed.

Overall, David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD and wrapped up those two things in one matter

1 Kings 15:5 Because David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

If that be the case then David could have us all beat, because who could say that over the course of our entire lives we have been more obedient to the LORD then David?

If the LORD would examine all of us could he find less matters on us than David?

 

[Aaron112]

If the LORD would examine all of us could he find less matters on us than David?

Most people everywhere have no heart after / no heart seeking/ the Creator, and when I question anyone, they usually admit it without too much if any hesitation.
i.e. every day of their lives they live in plain open or hidden disobedience, rebellion against God.

If that be the case then David could have us all beat, because who could say that over the course of our entire lives we have been more obedient to the LORD then David?

Only a few in Scripture come to mind, the most famous being Saul who became Paul the messenger of Yahweh.
Others are mentioned throughout Scripture - it is good to see them and the testimony the Creator Himself has of them, what He Says in His Word of them - blameless, faithful, true, etc .... including especially for today in the Epistles the disciples who obeyed Jesus faithfully....