Was King David a good example for Christians?

[Vanellus]

I recently read The Making of a Man of God by Alan Redpath which is a series of homilies drawn from the life of David. Now to be fair, Redpath says in his introduction that the Bible doesn't flatter its heroes, and he does make frequent reference to the life of the much greater Son of David i.e. Jesus in the gospels. Each homily is preceded by extracts of accounts in 1 and 2 Samuel, but as I read these accounts I started to think more and more that David was not so much an example to be followed but in many ways an example to be avoided.

Fee and Stuart make a good point in their How to Read the Bible for all its Worth that the OT narratives are not intended to be moralising but as an account of God's dealings with his chosen people (which is still profitable for us).

A good example that shows the difference between David and Jesus is

As they danced, they sang: “Saul has slain his thousands, and David his tens of thousands.” 1 Sam 18:7

An odd verse since it follows on from David killing Goliath and the Philistines fleeing. So at this point we only know that David had killed one person not tens of thousands, though that one person's demise led to many other Philistines dying as they fled the scene. Maybe we can take this as exaggeration by the women of Israel - the point of which is to start the theme of Saul's jealousy of David.

Contrast this with:
So when they came together, they asked Him, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”
Jesus replied, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” Acts 1:6-8

The disciples could well have added "as in King David's time". But it is clear that Jesus' idea of the kingdom is very different from that of his disciples. But surely the disciples' idea of the kingdom follows on naturally from the accounts in the OT - their view is reasonable in that context, but shows they, as yet, hadn't fully grasped the significance of Jesus' life and teachings.

There are other examples in David's life which are certainly not to be followed by Christians today but I'll leave those for later.

 

[public hermit]

Goodness, no. He is no model for someone following Christ. David spilled a lot of human blood for his temporal kingdom. Christ spilled his own blood for humanity and the eternal kingdom. Christ is the model.
QED

 

[Strong in Him]

Fee and Stuart make a good point in their How to Read the Bible for all its Worth that the OT narratives are not intended to be moralising but as an account of God's dealings with his chosen people (which is still profitable for us).

A good example that shows the difference between David and Jesus is

As they danced, they sang: “Saul has slain his thousands, and David his tens of thousands.” 1 Sam 18:7

An odd verse since it follows on from David killing Goliath and the Philistines fleeing. So at this point we only know that David had killed one person not tens of thousands,

I Samuel 18:5, "whatever mission Saul sent him on, David was so successful that Saul made him head of the army."

But in any case, this verse does not at all show the difference between David and Jesus.
David was king (in waiting at this point) of a country; Jesus was the One through whom the universe was made.

Maybe we can take this as exaggeration by the women of Israel - the point of which is to start the theme of Saul's jealousy of David.

Bit of a difference between 1 and 10s of 1000s.

Contrast this with:
So when they came together, they asked Him, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”
Jesus replied, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” Acts 1:6-8

The disciples could well have added "as in King David's time". But it is clear that Jesus' idea of the kingdom is very different from that of his disciples. But surely the disciples' idea of the kingdom follows on naturally from the accounts in the OT - their view is reasonable in that context, but shows they, as yet, hadn't fully grasped the significance of Jesus' life and teachings.

What's that got to do with whether, or not, David was a good example to follow?

David was God's chosen king and a man after God's own heart, 1 Samuel 13:14, Acts 13:22.
He was anointed as king but still had to wait for Saul to die. He had opportunity to kill him, but would not because Saul was also the Lord's anointed.
He sinned, big time, but he repented, kept trusting in, and following, God.
He used his gifts to honour God - he was musical and wrote "Psalms".
God made a covenant with David, that one of his ancestors would always be on the throne. Jesus was from the line of David, and Son of David was a Messianic title.
No leader is perfect - except Jesus.

 

[bling]

David really needed the indwelling Holy Spirit to be a good example.

 

[okay]

David is downright repugnant: rape (I don’t believe consent is possible between Bathsheeba and her king who had her snatched from her home), then arranging the murder of her husband to cover it up, etc. And after he was caught, in Psalm 51 he cries out that he has sinned only against God. So at least in that moment he does not at all take responsibility for sinning against Bathsheeba and Uriah. So much for repenting.

As others have written, only Jesus fits the bill. He is the point of all of the scriptures anyway.

Off the top of my head, besides Jesus, Esther and Job come to mind as perhaps better role models than most , although I haven’t read those books in awhile so might be forgetting some serious shortcomings on their part. Of course not all Christians agree on whether those two books are fiction or non-fiction.

Cheers

 

[Vanellus]

Strong in Him,

Are you quoting 1 Sam 18:5 as some kind of gotcha verse i.e. David had time to kill tens of thousands?

1After David had finished speaking with Saul, the souls of Jonathan and David were knit together, and Jonathan loved him as himself. 2And from that day Saul kept David with him and did not let him return to his father’s house.
3Then Jonathan made a covenant with David because he loved him as himself. 4And Jonathan removed the robe he was wearing and gave it to David, along with his tunic, his sword, his bow, and his belt.
5So David marched out and prospered in everything Saul sent him to do, and Saul set him over the men of war. And this was pleasing in the sight of all the people, and of Saul’s officers as well.
6As the troops were returning home after David had killed the Philistine, the women came out of all the cities of Israel to meet King Saul with singing and dancing, with joyful songs, and with tambourines and other instruments. 7And as the women danced, they sang out:
“Saul has slain his thousands,
and David his tens of thousands.”

I think it's clear that 18:1-5 are verses that describe David through events that occurred after he had returned from killing Goliath and after the women had sung about killing tens of thousands.

Although, ostensibly you comment on Acts 1:6-8 you are actually ignoring it and its relevance. What did the disciples mean by "restoring the kingdom to Israel" and what did Jesus have in mind for the future of his kingdom? Not a military overthrow of the Romans for sure.

Yes I've heard sermons about how merciful David was to Saul in the cave but fewer about him chopping the hands and feet off the murderers of Ish-bosheth in 2 Sam 4, hanging their bodies up in a public place. Is that how we should treat murderers today - mutilate their bodies and display them in a public space?

The kingdom Jesus came to usher in is very different from the OT kingdom of Israel.

 

[Vanellus]

David is downright repugnant: rape (I don’t believe consent is possible between Bathsheeba and her king who had her snatched from her home), then arranging the murder of her husband to cover it up, etc. And after he was caught, in Psalm 51 he cries out that he has sinned only against God. So at least in that moment he does not at all take responsibility for sinning against Bathsheeba and Uriah. So much for repenting.

As others have written, only Jesus fits the bill. He is the point of all of the scriptures anyway.

Off the top of my head, besides Jesus, Esther and Job come to mind as perhaps better role models than most , although I haven’t read those books in awhile so might be forgetting some serious shortcomings on their part. Of course not all Christians agree on whether those two books are fiction or non-fiction.

Cheers

Yes Job is a very interesting book. sermons tend to focus on the narrative context rather than the dialogue - but it is the long central section of dialogue that is so important. It's so well written - rather like a play by Beckett or Chekhov - but better. It could be that there was a person called Job who suffered personal tragedy but one has to think the dialogue was composed later over a period of time, rather than written down from an actual conversation.

 

[Vanellus]

David is downright repugnant: rape (I don’t believe consent is possible between Bathsheeba and her king who had her snatched from her home), then arranging the murder of her husband to cover it up, etc. And after he was caught, in Psalm 51 he cries out that he has sinned only against God. So at least in that moment he does not at all take responsibility for sinning against Bathsheeba and Uriah. So much for repenting.

As others have written, only Jesus fits the bill. He is the point of all of the scriptures anyway.

Off the top of my head, besides Jesus, Esther and Job come to mind as perhaps better role models than most , although I haven’t read those books in awhile so might be forgetting some serious shortcomings on their part. Of course not all Christians agree on whether those two books are fiction or non-fiction.

Cheers

Yes just because David said he had only sinned against God, I don't think that means we should believe him. He clearly had sinned against both Bathsheba and Uriah. The prodigal son confessed that he had sinned against both his earthly father and God.

Cheers.

 

[saffron park]

Yes, with one exception.

I Kings 15:4-5

Nevertheless, for David’s sake the Lord his God gave him a lamp in Jerusalem, setting up his son after him, and establishing Jerusalem, 5 because David did what was right in the eyes of the Lord and did not turn aside from anything that he commanded him all the days of his life, except in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

 

[Vanellus]

Yes, with one exception.

I Kings 15:4-5

Nevertheless, for David’s sake the Lord his God gave him a lamp in Jerusalem, setting up his son after him, and establishing Jerusalem, 5 because David did what was right in the eyes of the Lord and did not turn aside from anything that he commanded him all the days of his life, except in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

We are NT Christians not OT Israelites. Hence Jesus is our example to follow, not David.

But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises. Heb 8:6

 

[saffron park]

We are NT Christians not OT Israelites. Hence Jesus is our example to follow, not David.

But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises. Heb 8:6

David is also used as a positive example in the new testament (Hebrews 11:32)

Good people in the Old Testament don't become bad people after the coming of Christ. Why would they?

Rather Christ allows us to even more perfectly appreciate the virtue of His servants that came before Him.

 

[okay]

Yes, with one exception.

I Kings 15:4-5

Nevertheless, for David’s sake the Lord his God gave him a lamp in Jerusalem, setting up his son after him, and establishing Jerusalem, 5 because David did what was right in the eyes of the Lord and did not turn aside from anything that he commanded him all the days of his life, except in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

Bathsheba became his wife and bore several more children. She had to live with and sleep with the man who murdered her husband. That was an ongoing sin against her, not just a one-time event. Imagine her misery.

And then David took many wives, in violation of (i think) Deuteronomy 17. And the conflict and pain in his household was a direct result.

 

[saffron park]

Bathsheba became his wife and bore several more children. She had to live with and sleep with the man who murdered her husband. That was an ongoing sin against her, not just a one-time event. Imagine her misery.

And then David took many wives, in violation of (i think) Deuteronomy 17.

Take it up with the author of first kings.

 

[okay]

Take it up with the author of first kings.

Are you saying that the way David treated Bathsheba for years must not have been sinful, because the writers of Kings don’t call it out? Or am I misunderstanding?

 

[saffron park]

Are you saying that the way David treated Bathsheba for years must not have been sinful, because the writers of Kings don’t call it out? Or am I misunderstanding?

Perhaps "the matter of Uriah the Hittite" was meant to include that, similar to how the term "Watergate" includes parts of that scandal which took place outside the actual Watergate Complex. It is also possible Bathsheba was a willing participant. It seems that David was not afraid that she would tell on him when he tried to send Uriah home to her.

 

[rturner76]

King David killed people, many people so, while I think it's not the ideal example of Christian love, he was a good Jew which makes him a monotheistic follower of God's law. The only problem with that is if your bad deeds outweigh your good, you have no savior. At that time Israel did not have a savior so I think he did the best he could as both a secular king and a king of Israel.

 

[Paul4JC]

[Act 13:22 NKJV] 22 "And when He had removed him, He raised up for them David as king, to whom also He gave testimony and said, 'I have found David the [son] of Jesse, a man after My [own] heart, who will do all My will.'

"What did God say of David?"

 

[okay]

Perhaps "the matter of Uriah the Hittite" was meant to include that, similar to how the term "Watergate" includes parts of that scandal which took place outside the actual Watergate Complex. It is also possible Bathsheba was a willing participant. It seems that David was not afraid that she would tell on him when he tried to send Uriah home to her.

It might include that. But I am very skeptical that Bathsheba was a willing participant. She did not need to be in order for David to do whatever he wanted to her.

Of course David wanted Uriah to go home and sleep with Bathsheba in the hopes that he and others would assume the baby was conceived while he was home from war. Clearly that concern trumped the one about her telling Uriah about it. Given how hard it is for victims of sexual assault to speak up even today, I am guessing that David wasn’t so worried about that. By the way, the “wash your feet” language that David uses over and over when speaking to Uriah was a euphemism for having sex, or at least that is what I was taught by a Jewish Studies professor.

 

[Dosblade]

That man knew faith. Psa 4 read it. At first its hear me when I call now keep reading later says I know you will hear me when I call. That was OT there are so many more David said. Do we know He hears us? We should no.

 

[Strong in Him]

Strong in Him,

Are you quoting 1 Sam 18:5 as some kind of gotcha verse i.e. David had time to kill tens of thousands?

I quoted it to show that David did other things and had other battles etc, rather than being accredited with killing tens of thousands, after killing only Goliath.

5So David marched out and prospered in everything Saul sent him to do, and Saul set him over the men of war. And this was pleasing in the sight of all the people, and of Saul’s officers as well.
6As the troops were returning home after David had killed the Philistine, the women came out of all the cities of Israel to meet King Saul with singing and dancing, with joyful songs, and with tambourines and other instruments. 7And as the women danced, they sang out:
“Saul has slain his thousands,
and David his tens of thousands.”

I think it's clear that 18:1-5 are verses that describe David through events that occurred after he had returned from killing Goliath and after the women had sung about killing tens of thousands.

"As the troops were returning home ..... " - you seem to be assuming that that was the same day, or the day after, at least. Have you read 1 Samuel 17:52-53? David killed Goliath, the Israelites chased the Philistines, and scattered the dead bodies all along the road, then they plundered the camp. This, and 1 Sam 18:5, clearly implies there were several battles and victories for David.

Although, ostensibly you comment on Acts 1:6-8 you are actually ignoring it and its relevance.

I didn't comment on Acts 1:6-8, and it is irrelevant.
The question of your thread is whether or not David was a good example for Christians. The short answer - which most people have said - is that Jesus is a way better example for Christians.
We can learn from David's story: he was chosen by God, called a man after God's own heart, sinned, big time - but repented and continued to believe in, and serve, God. But I wouldn't follow his example of lust, seduction and murder. He wasn't perfect; only Jesus has been that.

Yes I've heard sermons about how merciful David was to Saul in the cave but fewer about him chopping the hands and feet off the murderers of Ish-bosheth in 2 Sam 4, hanging their bodies up in a public place. Is that how we should treat murderers today - mutilate their bodies and display them in a public space?

No, but King David was living around 3-4000 years ago. He lived in a time when they went to war on, and killed, their enemies; this was the only way of being rid of them.
Things might be a tad different now; don't you think?

The kingdom Jesus came to usher in is very different from the OT kingdom of Israel.

Well obviously.
Again, what has that got to do with whether or not we can learn from King David's example or his story?