Was God's choosing Israel an act of aparteid...

[Ephesians321]

Why does He gather us while we are yet sinners?

The restoration of “Israel”

The apostles in Acts 1:6 question Jesus about the restoration of Israel. While Jesus doesn’t directly answer them, it can reasonably be claimed that the subsequent events related in the book of Acts constitute an affirmative answer: Israel was indeed about to be restored — in the gathering of God’s people through the gospel.

How is Israel restored?

Answer: “Israel” is first of all restored in Jesus, then in those who belong to him.
Jesus was the One true and faithful Israelite (Isa 49:3).
He obeyed God’s law perfectly in the wilderness (Lk 4:1-12).
He was the true and faithful Son of God (Lk 3:22, 38; cf. Ex 4:22; Hos 6:7; 11:1ff.).
He represented Israel both in his death and in his resurrection: His death was the ultimate exile; his resurrection, the ultimate restoration. His death/exile on behalf of Israel (in Isaiah 53) meant that the nation would be finally restored, not destroyed.
Now, “Israel” includes all the people of God — Gentiles too — who belong to Jesus and for whom he died and rose again. God’s people, who are “in Christ” and identified with him, comprise the true, spiritual Israel. Old Testament prophecies of restoration are thereby fulfilled. For example, Ezekiel’s Dry Bones Vision (Eze 37:1-14) finds fulfillment in Israel’s spiritual restoration under the New Covenant as the true “Israel of God” — comprising both Jewish and Gentile believers (Gal 6:16). The restoration of Davidic kingship, of Israel, and of dominion over the nations — to the promises God made to Abraham. Specifically, to the promises of an inheritance and of blessing to the world through Abraham’s seed (Gen 12:3, 7; 22:18).
These promises are fulfilled through the gospel: All nations are Christ’s inheritance and are blessed as they turn to him (Rom 4:13; Gal 3:8, 14; Ps 2:8, 12).
Faith joins us to Jesus and makes us children of Abraham and of God (Rom 4:9-25; 9:8; Gal 3:26-29).
The Jewish Remnant While “Israel” now constitutes believing Jews and Gentiles, we should perhaps note a role for ethnic Israel in the fulfilment of God’s promises. Paul in Romans 9 – 11 discusses this matter at length. His question is this: With the nation’s failure to believe in Jesus, have the promises of God for Israel failed (Rom 9:1-6)?
Paul goes on to show that God’s promises had ultimate reference to an elect remnant within the nation. Moreover, he seems to anticipate a yet future mass turning of ethnic Jews to their Messiah (Rom 11:11-32).
The Old Testament prophets often spoke concerning this remnant — those of the nation who survive God’s judgments. With evildoers destroyed, the righteous remnant alone will remain, or return from exile to repossess their land and city. See Isaiah 1:9; 4:2-3; 6:13; 10:20-23; 11:11, 16; 28:5; 37:31-32; 46:3; 49:6; Jeremiah 23:3; 50:20; Ezekiel 9:4-6; Joel 2:32; Amos 5:15; 9:8; Micah 2:12; 4:7; 7:18; Zephaniah 2:7, 9; 3:12-13; Malachi 4:1-3.
First-century Jewish Christians viewed themselves as constituting this faithful remnant (see Romans 11:1-6). The Hebrews author addresses these believing Jews, urging them to remain faithful in view of God’s imminent judgment on their nation (cf. Heb 10:25, 30, 39).
And, Revelation 7:1-8 shows the first-century Jewish remnant being sealed by God to exempt them from coming judgment (cf. Eze 9:4-6). 12,000 are sealed from each Israelite tribe, 144,000 in total. That they come from all twelve Israelite tribes shows that Old Testament promises concerning the ultimate reunion of both kingdoms — Israel and Judah — have been fulfilled through Christ (cf. Isa 11:12-13; Jer 3:18; 23:5-6; Eze 37:15-22; Hos 1:11).

 

[Carl Emerson]

The restoration of “Israel”

The apostles in Acts 1:6 question Jesus about the restoration of Israel. While Jesus doesn’t directly answer them, it can reasonably be claimed that the subsequent events related in the book of Acts constitute an affirmative answer: Israel was indeed about to be restored — in the gathering of God’s people through the gospel.

How is Israel restored?

Answer: “Israel” is first of all restored in Jesus, then in those who belong to him.
Jesus was the One true and faithful Israelite (Isa 49:3).
He obeyed God’s law perfectly in the wilderness (Lk 4:1-12).
He was the true and faithful Son of God (Lk 3:22, 38; cf. Ex 4:22; Hos 6:7; 11:1ff.).
He represented Israel both in his death and in his resurrection: His death was the ultimate exile; his resurrection, the ultimate restoration. His death/exile on behalf of Israel (in Isaiah 53) meant that the nation would be finally restored, not destroyed.
Now, “Israel” includes all the people of God — Gentiles too — who belong to Jesus and for whom he died and rose again. God’s people, who are “in Christ” and identified with him, comprise the true, spiritual Israel. Old Testament prophecies of restoration are thereby fulfilled. For example, Ezekiel’s Dry Bones Vision (Eze 37:1-14) finds fulfillment in Israel’s spiritual restoration under the New Covenant as the true “Israel of God” — comprising both Jewish and Gentile believers (Gal 6:16). The restoration of Davidic kingship, of Israel, and of dominion over the nations — to the promises God made to Abraham. Specifically, to the promises of an inheritance and of blessing to the world through Abraham’s seed (Gen 12:3, 7; 22:18).
These promises are fulfilled through the gospel: All nations are Christ’s inheritance and are blessed as they turn to him (Rom 4:13; Gal 3:8, 14; Ps 2:8, 12).
Faith joins us to Jesus and makes us children of Abraham and of God (Rom 4:9-25; 9:8; Gal 3:26-29).
The Jewish Remnant While “Israel” now constitutes believing Jews and Gentiles, we should perhaps note a role for ethnic Israel in the fulfilment of God’s promises. Paul in Romans 9 – 11 discusses this matter at length. His question is this: With the nation’s failure to believe in Jesus, have the promises of God for Israel failed (Rom 9:1-6)?
Paul goes on to show that God’s promises had ultimate reference to an elect remnant within the nation. Moreover, he seems to anticipate a yet future mass turning of ethnic Jews to their Messiah (Rom 11:11-32).
The Old Testament prophets often spoke concerning this remnant — those of the nation who survive God’s judgments. With evildoers destroyed, the righteous remnant alone will remain, or return from exile to repossess their land and city. See Isaiah 1:9; 4:2-3; 6:13; 10:20-23; 11:11, 16; 28:5; 37:31-32; 46:3; 49:6; Jeremiah 23:3; 50:20; Ezekiel 9:4-6; Joel 2:32; Amos 5:15; 9:8; Micah 2:12; 4:7; 7:18; Zephaniah 2:7, 9; 3:12-13; Malachi 4:1-3.
First-century Jewish Christians viewed themselves as constituting this faithful remnant (see Romans 11:1-6). The Hebrews author addresses these believing Jews, urging them to remain faithful in view of God’s imminent judgment on their nation (cf. Heb 10:25, 30, 39).
And, Revelation 7:1-8 shows the first-century Jewish remnant being sealed by God to exempt them from coming judgment (cf. Eze 9:4-6). 12,000 are sealed from each Israelite tribe, 144,000 in total. That they come from all twelve Israelite tribes shows that Old Testament promises concerning the ultimate reunion of both kingdoms — Israel and Judah — have been fulfilled through Christ (cf. Isa 11:12-13; Jer 3:18; 23:5-6; Eze 37:15-22; Hos 1:11).

OK you have put your case well, I am not an 'end times' voice so I wont add to the circus.

Many think that this passage from Isaiah refers to the Balfour declaration when Modern Israel was literally born in a day.

Isaiah 66
7 “Before she was in labor, she delivered;
Before her pain came, she gave birth to a boy.
8 Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things?
Can a land be born in one day?
Can a nation be given birth all at once?
As soon as Zion was in labor, she also delivered her sons.
9 Shall I bring to the point of birth but not give delivery?” says the Lord.
“Or shall I who gives delivery shut the womb?” says your God.

Arthur Katz believed that Israel would be expelled from the Land, come to repentance, and return again in Glory - we shall have to wait and see.

I am not sure that the true picture comes from systematic analysis of Scripture verses... one doesn't need the Holy Spirit to do that, and many continue to try. Add to that an assumed factor of self importance and we have the mess that prevails.

Lastly from my time in Israel I concluded that one reason why the church was weak was a fixation on end times - the locals said the two witnesses had arrived 7 times.

My emphasis is to be found doing what He wants Today.

Thanks for the dialogue.

 

[Carl Emerson]

These are about the return from the Babylonian Captivity. So, yes, that did happen. It happened 2400 years ago.

Some believe that prophesy in Scripture can have more than one fulfilment.

 

[Ephesians321]

OK you have put your case well, I am not an 'end times' voice so I wont add to the circus.

Many think that this passage from Isaiah refers to the Balfour declaration when Modern Israel was literally born in a day.

Isaiah 66
7 “Before she was in labor, she delivered;
Before her pain came, she gave birth to a boy.
8 Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things?
Can a land be born in one day?
Can a nation be given birth all at once?
As soon as Zion was in labor, she also delivered her sons.
9 Shall I bring to the point of birth but not give delivery?” says the Lord.
“Or shall I who gives delivery shut the womb?” says your God.

Arthur Katz believed that Israel would be expelled from the Land, come to repentance, and return again in Glory - we shall have to wait and see.

I am not sure that the true picture comes from systematic analysis of Scripture verses... one doesn't need the Holy Spirit to do that, and many continue to try. Add to that an assumed factor of self importance and we have the mess that prevails.

Lastly from my time in Israel I concluded that one reason why the church was weak was a fixation on end times - the locals said the two witnesses had arrived 7 times.

My emphasis is to be found doing what He wants Today.

Thanks for the dialogue.

And that can apply to the spiritual Israel, the Israel of God in Galatians 6:16 pertaining to the Resurrection.

How important is repentance and obedience prior to the regathering of Israel to their land inheritance after God judged and scattered them? He never promised to regather Israel in a state rebellion and disbelief especially when the largest population demograph in the State of Israel consists of agnostics, atheists, and secular Jews.
Read Deuteronomy 28-30 & Leviticus 26.

How important is circumcision in regarding their land inheritance?
Read Genesis 17:7-14 & Joshua 5:1-9

What did God promise if they remained faithful and obedient regarding their Feast Days? He would protect them from their enemies and their enemies would not attack their land on their Feast Days. Exodus 34

For 1500 years there were no attacks against Israel during her feast days. However, there were notable and highly significant exceptions.

In BC 586 Babylon destroyed Jerusalem, and according to Josephus and other Jewish sources, that happened during the Feast of Pentecost. What is so highly significant is the fact that the prophets of the day, Jeremiah, Zephaniah, etc. clearly enunciated why God was about to send Jerusalem into exile. She had broken her covenant The fall of Jerusalem was proof positive of Israel’s alienation from Yahweh.

According to first century Jewish historian Josephus, an eyewitness to the event, the final destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 also took place during Pentecost, one of Israel’s three special feast days. What are the implications of that destruction in light of Exodus 34? Jesus very clearly said the reason Jerusalem was to be devastated in AD 70 was because of her disobedience (Matthew 23-24). Specifically, as the early church writers repeatedly observe, Jerusalem was destroyed for crucifying her Messiah.

The Yom Kippur War 1973

The Passover Massacre 2002

The Christian Zionist and Dispensational futurists are so blind and desperate to cram the strictly political secular entity of the State of Israel into their eschatology that they willfully or ignorantly deny all of these beautiful and wonderful passages that emphatically proclaim:
1. Israel after the flesh does not exist under a Mosaic Covenant anymore.
2. The land inheritance of Palestine has completed and fulfilled its purpose.

 

[Carl Emerson]

And that can apply to the spiritual Israel, the Israel of God in Galatians 6:16 pertaining to the Resurrection.

How important is repentance and obedience prior to the regathering of Israel to their land inheritance after God judged and scattered them? He never promised to regather Israel in a state rebellion and disbelief especially when the largest population demograph in the State of Israel consists of agnostics, atheists, and secular Jews.
Read Deuteronomy 28-30 & Leviticus 26.

How important is circumcision in regarding their land inheritance?
Read Genesis 17:7-14 & Joshua 5:1-9

What did God promise if they remained faithful and obedient regarding their Feast Days? He would protect them from their enemies and their enemies would not attack their land on their Feast Days. Exodus 34

For 1500 years there were no attacks against Israel during her feast days. However, there were notable and highly significant exceptions.

In BC 586 Babylon destroyed Jerusalem, and according to Josephus and other Jewish sources, that happened during the Feast of Pentecost. What is so highly significant is the fact that the prophets of the day, Jeremiah, Zephaniah, etc. clearly enunciated why God was about to send Jerusalem into exile. She had broken her covenant The fall of Jerusalem was proof positive of Israel’s alienation from Yahweh.

According to first century Jewish historian Josephus, an eyewitness to the event, the final destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 also took place during Pentecost, one of Israel’s three special feast days. What are the implications of that destruction in light of Exodus 34? Jesus very clearly said the reason Jerusalem was to be devastated in AD 70 was because of her disobedience (Matthew 23-24). Specifically, as the early church writers repeatedly observe, Jerusalem was destroyed for crucifying her Messiah.

The Yom Kippur War 1973

The Passover Massacre 2002

The Christian Zionist and Dispensational futurists are so blind and desperate to cram the strictly political secular entity of the State of Israel into their eschatology that they willfully or ignorantly deny all of these beautiful and wonderful passages that emphatically proclaim:
1. Israel after the flesh does not exist under a Mosaic Covenant anymore.
2. The land inheritance of Palestine has completed and fulfilled its purpose.

Well just maybe Arthur Katz was right ??

In the mean time His love for the Jews remains...

 

[Ephesians321]

Well just maybe Arthur Katz was right ??

In the mean time His love for the Jews remains...

Jews have equal standing before God as does the Gentiles, with Christ or without Christ.

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Romans 2:28-29

Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Galatians 3:5-6

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Galatians 3:13-14

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Galatians 3:27-29

Look at what Scriptures says about the Gentiles:

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light; WHICH IN TIME PAST WERE NOT A PEOPLE, BUT ARE NOW THE PEOPLE OF GOD: WHICH HAD NOT OBTAINED MERCY, BUT NOW HAVE OBTAINED MERCY.
1 Peter 2:9-10 c.f. Ex. 19:6, Deut. 14:2

____________________

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Romans 8:9,14

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
1 John 2:22, 1 John 4:3, 2 John 1:7

 

[Carl Emerson]

Jews have equal standing before God as does the Gentiles, with Christ or without Christ.

Paul's love for the Jews sounds pretty intense...

9 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my countrymen, my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons and daughters, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the temple service, and the promises; 5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.

 

[Dan2255]

It seems that the thinking of the modern world, is that God favouring one nation over another is somehow immoral.

Under the divided attitudes among Christians runs the demand that all men are equal and all nations are equal before God.

This is not the revealed viewpoint we read in Scripture.

This seems to be a major driver of antisemitic sentiment.

Paul addressed this issue in Romans 9

And we read this in Genesis...

12 Now the Lord said to Abram,

“Go from your country,
And from your relatives
And from your father’s house,
To the land which I will show you;
2 And I will make you into a great nation,
And I will bless you,
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing;
3 And I will bless those who bless you,
And the one who curses you I will curse.
And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.”

Was God sinning in choosing one nation over another ?

The gospel was first preached unto Abraham saying 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So those who teach if Israel the nation had not rejected Christ we gentiles would have never had a chance to be saved. As for the promises made to Abraham and his seed did not mean Israel the nation as it is also written 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Now to look at the promise given to Abraham and to Christ was a land which had a city whose builder and maker was God. Abraham believe what God had told him and set at in the land of promise in search for what the Lord said he would come into for an everlasting place. Paul wrote had he been mindful he would have realized it was a heavenly place. You see it was to be an everlasting place. This earth and heavens are burned up. We see the this earth and heavens are destroyed just before the great white throne judgment. Christ being the seed and all those inChrist will inherit the promise also.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Some believe that prophesy in Scripture can have more than one fulfilment.

As an American I am familiar with the ways in which many have tried to treat the United States as a biblical or even prophetic nation. In the 19th century there was something that was called "Manifest Destiny" which saw it as the right of the United States to span from the Atlantic to the Pacific; and the result was the theft of land and the massacre of the indigenous peoples of the continent.

Divine Providence was invoked, the name of God was used, genocide was justified in the name of America as a divinely guided nation--and it was the right of the nation--by God--to take, to kill, to destroy.

Entire nations of people were driven out of the land they hand inhabited for centuries and driven elsewhere. If you have never heard of it, look up the Trail of Tears.

Men justify their evil acts by attributing them to the hand of God. Famously, when it came to the retaking of the Holy Land in the First Crusade, the Pope's words were Deus Vult, "God wills it". When the crusaders took Jerusalem they were ruthless in their actions, killing and raping, not just Muslims, but Jews, and even other Christians. Contemporary accounts, written by Christians, talk about the massacres and grotesque deeds of the crusaders, including cannibalism.

When we excuse evil in the name of Scripture, prophecy, the will of God, etc we betray Lord Jesus Christ and the Christian religion. When religion is used to cause harm, it is an abuse of the word and gifts of God. It is to spit in the face of God, and to trample over the sacred and holy Cross of the Savior.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Carl Emerson]

As an American I am familiar with the ways in which many have tried to treat the United States as a biblical or even prophetic nation. In the 19th century there was something that was called "Manifest Destiny" which saw it as the right of the United States to span from the Atlantic to the Pacific; and the result was the theft of land and the massacre of the indigenous peoples of the continent.

Divine Providence was invoked, the name of God was used, genocide was justified in the name of America as a divinely guided nation--and it was the right of the nation--by God--to take, to kill, to destroy.

Entire nations of people were driven out of the land they hand inhabited for centuries and driven elsewhere. If you have never heard of it, look up the Trail of Tears.

Men justify their evil acts by attributing them to the hand of God. Famously, when it came to the retaking of the Holy Land in the First Crusade, the Pope's words were Deus Vult, "God wills it". When the crusaders took Jerusalem they were ruthless in their actions, killing and raping, not just Muslims, but Jews, and even other Christians. Contemporary accounts, written by Christians, talk about the massacres and grotesque deeds of the crusaders, including cannibalism.

When we excuse evil in the name of Scripture, prophecy, the will of God, etc we betray Lord Jesus Christ and the Christian religion. When religion is used to cause harm, it is an abuse of the word and gifts of God. It is to spit in the face of God, and to trample over the sacred and holy Cross of the Savior.

-CryptoLutheran

This from another thread...

Hardly a religious war this time...

https://www.christianforums.com/attachments/339072/

 

[Carl Emerson]

As an American I am familiar with the ways in which many have tried to treat the United States as a biblical or even prophetic nation. In the 19th century there was something that was called "Manifest Destiny" which saw it as the right of the United States to span from the Atlantic to the Pacific; and the result was the theft of land and the massacre of the indigenous peoples of the continent.

Divine Providence was invoked, the name of God was used, genocide was justified in the name of America as a divinely guided nation--and it was the right of the nation--by God--to take, to kill, to destroy.

Entire nations of people were driven out of the land they hand inhabited for centuries and driven elsewhere. If you have never heard of it, look up the Trail of Tears.

Men justify their evil acts by attributing them to the hand of God. Famously, when it came to the retaking of the Holy Land in the First Crusade, the Pope's words were Deus Vult, "God wills it". When the crusaders took Jerusalem they were ruthless in their actions, killing and raping, not just Muslims, but Jews, and even other Christians. Contemporary accounts, written by Christians, talk about the massacres and grotesque deeds of the crusaders, including cannibalism.

When we excuse evil in the name of Scripture, prophecy, the will of God, etc we betray Lord Jesus Christ and the Christian religion. When religion is used to cause harm, it is an abuse of the word and gifts of God. It is to spit in the face of God, and to trample over the sacred and holy Cross of the Savior.

-CryptoLutheran

I wonder if you could answer the question...

Do you think prophesy can have more than one fulfilment ?

 

[The Liturgist]

It seems that the thinking of the modern world, is that God favouring one nation over another is somehow immoral.

Under the divided attitudes among Christians runs the demand that all men are equal and all nations are equal before God.

This is not the revealed viewpoint we read in Scripture.

This seems to be a major driver of antisemitic sentiment.

Paul addressed this issue in Romans 9

And we read this in Genesis...

12 Now the Lord said to Abram,

“Go from your country,
And from your relatives
And from your father’s house,
To the land which I will show you;
2 And I will make you into a great nation,
And I will bless you,
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing;
3 And I will bless those who bless you,
And the one who curses you I will curse.
And in you all the families of the earth will be blessed.”

Was God sinning in choosing one nation over another ?

No, certainly not. However, the New Testament makes it clear that the Church is the New Israel, and when we say this, we must understand statements to this effect by St. Paul in light of the fact that the New Israel was inclusive of the Old Israel, and indeed, when we look at the Antiochian Orthodox Church, the Syriac Orthodox Church, the Assyrian Church of the East, the Chaldean Catholic Church and the Mar Thoma Christians of Kerala and the Malabar Coast in India, all of which were comprised primarily of Jewish converts (for example, the St. Thomas Christians of India are largely descended from the Kochin Jews, who had settled in Kerala and the Malabar Coast after this trade route was opened up by the conquests of Alexander the Great, and some St. Thomas Christians are endogamous descendants of a group of Jews travelling to India who were shipwrecked and rescued by the St. Thomas Christians), with some converts from the local population as well (indeed, it was refusing to not preach to the Indians of Malankara that resulted in St. Thomas the Apostle receiving a crown of martyrdom when the local Maharaja threw a javelin at him).
Indeed, if we factor in the horrifying genocide the Romans conducted towards the Jews in Judaea following the failed Bar Kochba revolt (led by a false Messiah), after which time several forms of Judaism including the Sadducees and Essenes seemingly disappeared altogether. When we factor in the conversion of most of the Ethiopian Jews to Christianity between the fourth and seventh centuries, AD, starting with the royal court of Axum, converted by St. Frumentius, not counting Ethiopians who had already converted in the first century, considering there are 36 million Ethiopian Orthodox, the majority of whom are of Jewish descent, and about 20 million members of the Middle Eastern and Indian churches that are comprised largely of converts from Judaism, compared to slightly less than 17 million practitioners of Judaism, worldwide, in all forms, it becomes clear that a majority of Jews have already converted to Christianity, and thus the Church is the New Israel, inclusive of the Old, but the Old Israel is still something that must be protected, so that its members are afforded every opportunity between now and the return of Christ Pantocrator to recognize Him as their Messiah, Hashem incarnate.

Thus, we must assert the attacks by Hamas on the State of Israel were evil, and regardless of how one might feel about the circumstances of its founding, the State of Israel has a right to exist, and furthermore does offer its citizens more freedom than many of the surrounding countries, for example, Saudi Arabia, Syria and especially Iran, while being roughly on par with Egypt, Lebanon and Jordan, give or take, and with a comparable security situation. The primary concern I have, therefore, is over certain military actions of Israel that may have had the effect of damaging or destroying Orthodox Christian churches, specifically those flagged by the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem, which can by no means be accused of anti-Semitism, for it is that church which leases to Israel at very reasonable rates the land on which the Knesset Building, home to Israel’s Parliament, sits, and likewise the Greek Orthodox and Armenian Apostolic Patriarchates, as the representatives of Eastern and Oriental Orthodoxy, and the Franciscan Friars who represent the Roman Catholic Church, the three entities jointly controlling the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and collectively do more to promote tourism and travel to Israel than any other organizations, since Christian and Jewish pilgrims, and Jewish vacationers, represent the largest blocks of vacationers, and so the concerns of these churches must be taken seriously.

At the same time, I am disturbed by an increasingly noticeable anti-Semitism among left wing media outlets, and also by anti-Semitic incidents, for example, the renaming of a kindergarten in Germany named for Anne Franke to the “World Explorers”, which strikes me as shocking in a country where Holocaust Denial is supposed to be illegal. It seems that perhaps the German police are willing to turn a blind eye as long as the holocaust denial is engaged in by Islamic immigrants rather than neo-Nazis, which is a misguided view that fails to recognize Hitler’s connections with Islamist organizations, including his alliance with the Bosnian Muslims, and the high level of commonality between neo-Nazi and white supremacist thought and Islam (in particular, it should be noted that Gulf Arabs in the Emirates, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, etc, are notorious for discriminating against Muslims from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Africa).

My fear is that anti-Semitic hate directed towards all Jews, as opposed to objections to certain excesses of the otherwise entirely justified military response the IDF is conducting in response to the Hamas terror attacks, could become the next cause celebre, much like the widespread hatred we saw last year of the Russian people, and the imposition of sanctions that could have no effect other than to harm them, as opposed to their leadership, which included vandalism of Russian Orthodox churches belonging to ROCOR and the Orthodox Church in America, which are independent of the Moscow Patriarchate, and whose membership consists largely of ethnic Ukrainians (indeed, Metropolitan Hilarion Kapral, the presiding bishop of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia (ROCOR), who died last summer of cancer, was an ethnic Ukrainian citizen of Canada, one of a great many; indeed I would guess the majority of ROCOR and OCA members in the Prairie Provinces of Canada (Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba) are Ukrainians, since the Ukrainian Orthodox Church in North America is still relatively small.

We also saw this same sort of groupthink in 2020 with the Black Lives Matter protests, which were allowed to proceed in places where Jewish synagogues and Christian churches were (in the US, illegally as it turned out, according to the Supreme Court) prohibited from operating, along with campaigns to defund or abolish the police departments (which resulted in budget cuts to the police in some American cities such as Chicago, which have led to skyrocketing crime rates, particularly homicide). Thus we need to pray that the Jews do not find themselves, once again, the victim of a pogrom initiated by radical political movements who, owing to perverse social trends, have managed to propel themselves to a situation of outsized influence in social media.

 

[The Liturgist]

I have lived in South Africa during Apartheid.

I have also lived in Israel along side Arab workers.

The system in SA was horrendous.

The Arabs I worked with in Israel were well looked after and enjoyed the same rights as any other citizen.

The suggestion that there is a similarity between the two is deeply insulting.

Well, the difference is that you were working with Arab citizens of Israel, as opposed to Arab citizens of the Palestinian Authority. It’s a bit complicated, but for residents of places such as Bethlehem, which is under Palestinian jurisdiction, which includes many Christians, conditions are worse than for Arab citizens of Israel, who are indeed very well treated, but this condition does not extend into Gaza or the West Bank or the Golan Heights.

Israel also faces another problem, and that is that the ultra-Orthodox Charedim, including Chassidic Jews and other Jews who are simply exceedingly observant, have a much higher birthrate than the less observant and non-observant ethnic Jewish population, and the Ultra-Orthodox Jews, like the Arab Israelis, are not required to serve in the IDF, and what is more, they are less enthusiastic about the idea of the State of Israel, with many adhering to the belief that such a state should not have been established until the arrival of the Messiah.

Thus, I advocate a “three-state solution” in order to secure lasting peace and security for Jews, Christians and Arabs in the Holy Land, and that is to promote reconciliation between Israel and the Orthodox and Catholic Christians of the Middle East, such as the Maronites of Lebanon, the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Patriarchates of Jerusalem, Antioch and Alexandria, and the Assyrian Church of the East and the Indian and Ethiopian Orthodox churches. I propose that those Palestinian territories that share a border with Israel have a Christian government, whereas those parts that share a border with Islamic governments might in some cases have an Islamic government (there would be a minimum width requirement for the Christian territory, as it would serve as a buffer zone between lands under Israeli control and lands under Islamic control). This would have the effect of ensuring long term security for Israel even in the face of a declining population of Jews who believe in the Zionist ideal and who are patriotic about the State of Israel, since this segment of their population just is not reproducing sufficiently compared to the Ultra-Orthodox Jews, whereas the Christians are, and as I see it, the Christians of the Middle East are ideally positioned to mediate disputes between an increasingly Chassidic Jewish population and the Islamic population.

Lastly I feel the point must be made that regardless of what we dislike about the State of Israel, Judaism as a religion is inherently more peaceful and less prone towards engaging in unprovoked violence towards civilians than Islam. Additionally, Judaism, like Christianity, does not regard people engaging in Kamikaze-style suicide attacks or those who die in military combat as martyrs. Our main concern therefore must be for the safety and the well being of the Christian population both in Israel and in the Palestinian territories (which include Bethlehem).

 

[Semper-Fi]

And not sure what you mean Israel has made such advancements over others with commerce etc....they've done well but so much more than others or the major world powers?

List of Israeli inventions and discoveries

List of Israeli inventions and discoveries - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There are over 6,000 startups currently in Israel. There are currently more
than 30 technology companies valued over US$1 billion (unicorn startups)
in Israel, more than all of Europe combined.
-

Anti-Semitism in medieval Europe

Anti-Semitism - Medieval Europe, Prejudice, Persecution

Anti-Semitism - Medieval Europe, Prejudice, Persecution: Religious attitudes were reflected in the economic, social, and political life of medieval Europe. In much of Europe during the Middle Ages, Jews were denied citizenship and its rights, barred from holding posts in government and the...

www.britannica.com

"As European commerce grew in the late Middle Ages, some Jews became
prominent in trade, banking, and moneylending, and Jews’ economic and
cultural successes tended to arouse the envy of the populace."
-

How Jews Have Made an Impact on the Modern World

How Jews Have Made an Impact on the Modern World (Published 2019)

Norman Lebrecht’s “Genius & Anxiety” looks at Jewish achievement from 1847 to 1947.

www.nytimes.com

The Chosen Few: A New Explanation of Jewish Success

By Maristella Botticini and Zvi Eckstein A note from Paul Solman: Nine years ago, someone sent me an academic paper that put forward a radically new explanation of why Jews have been so successful economically. Written by economists Maristella Botticini and Zvi Eckstein, the paper explained...

www.pbs.org

-

"the world's "core" Jewish population (those identifying as Jews above all else)
was estimated at 16.1 million,[1][2] 0.2% of the 8 billion worldwide population.

Jewish population by country - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Only 0.2% of population, but have Made a big Impact on mankind over the centuries.
x

edit: I forgot to add the most important part, the Jews recording the oracles of God for us.

1 What advantage then hath the Jew?
or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them
were committed the oracles [utterances] of God.

From Judah: they preserved the Hebrew bible for all of us.
they preserved the Hebrew Calendar, and the 7 day cycle.

"This is he[Christ], that was in the church in the wilderness
with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with
our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

 

[Semper-Fi]

The apostles in Acts 1:6 question Jesus about the restoration of Israel.
While Jesus doesn’t directly answer them, it can reasonably be claimed....

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying,
Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times
or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Jesus did not say Israel [was not] going to be restored,
he only told them it was not for them to know the timing.
Jesus also did not say the church was now the house of Israel.

Jesus answered this very question in A parable in Luke 19.
People thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

"He said therefore, A certain nobleman [Christ] went into a far country.
[Heaven] to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

"For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey.. Mark 13:34, Matthew 25:14
"Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh.

When would Jesus Christ Appear? Psalm 102:16 Psalm 69:35
"When the LORD shall build up Zion, He shall appear in his glory.

Zion [the church here] is still being built up today.
The Church that started on Pentecost, one of Gods Holy days.

The bible mentions in many places when/where this would happen.

14 the LORD God said unto the serpent...
15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed
and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The seed of the woman/mankind/heel would be bruised/swayed by Satan,
and would cause Jesus to offer himself as a sacrifice/bruised Son of man.

12 but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever,
sat down on the right hand of God; from henceforth expecting till his
enemies be made his footstool.

"For he hath put all things under his feet.
Corinthians 15:27 ...it is manifest that he is excepted,
Hebrews 2:8 But now we see not yet all things put under him.

Jesus is on the right side of The Fathers Throne over the universe. The risen Christ is not
sitting on king Davids throne in Heaven, David throne was never in heaven but on earth.
"After this I will return, And will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down;
And I will build again the ruins thereof, And I will set it up: Acts 15:16 (KJV)

The second part [bruise thy head], Satan's head [throne/kingdoms/as god/ over
earth] would be taken away by Christ, this has not happened yet. Rev 11:15

At His Temptation by satan, Jesus overcomes and qualified to replace him.
Christ has yet to remove satan from his throne as ruler over nations. Luke 4:5-7

Meanwhile Christ has suffered and died for mankind, now raised from the dead.
He has started His church, and will return when Zion is built-up.
Satan is now barred from Heaven, deceiving the nations, his time is short. Rev 12:12
-

"The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, Nor a lawgiver from between his feet,
Until Shiloh come; And unto him shall the gathering of the people be .

11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass's colt unto the choice vine;
he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:

-that was his first trip, and when he returns to take over the Kingdom below.

12 His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk..

Shiloh in Gen. 49 refers to Christs second comming-ver12, not His first-11.

 

[Semper-Fi]

The second coming is in actuality a continuation of the first.

Luk 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias.
And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me
to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted,
to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind,
to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Luk 4:19 [To preach] the acceptable year of the Lord.

Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat
down.And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

He stopped reading just there, and closed the book, and just sat down?

We read in Isa 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me
[to preach good tidings] unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the
broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of
the prison to them that are bound;

Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,

And here is where He stopped reading in mid sentence.
Now the passage He quoted continues...

"and [the day of vengeance] of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Isa 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty
for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit
of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting
of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

Isa 61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former
desolations,and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many
generations.:5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons
of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.

Isa 61:6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you
the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in
their glory shall ye boast yourselves. Isa 61:7 For your shame ye shall have
double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in
their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them.

He came the first time to complete Isa 61:1-2 but not all of verse 2.
When He returns,[after] the day of vengeance, He will complete verse 2
and forward through verse 7.

 

[Semper-Fi]

How important is circumcision in regarding their land inheritance?
Read Genesis 17:7-14 & Joshua 5:1-9

Physical circumcision has never been a problem for the House of Judah.
Seems the current nation of Israel has Circumcision covered.

Prevalence of circumcision today

Prevalence of circumcision - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Rates vary widely, from over 90% in Israel and many Muslim-majority
countries, 86.3% in South Korea, to 80% in the United States, to 58%
in Australia, to 45% in South Africa, to 20.7% in the United Kingdom,
to under 1% in Japan and Honduras"

Why in general is Circumcision used, besides the command from God?

Science found many health and hygiene benefits from Circumcision,
even helps from contacting aids. Why day eight? Is there any good
scientific rationale behind such a command?

-Science has proven this is the best time for clotting to occur. in a man's lifetime.

Circumcision – The Day When Blood Coagulation Begins – The Yeshiva World

 

[Ephesians321]

Physical circumcision has never been a problem for the House of Judah.
Seems the current nation of Israel has Circumcision covered.

Prevalence of circumcision today

Prevalence of circumcision - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Rates vary widely, from over 90% in Israel and many Muslim-majority
countries, 86.3% in South Korea, to 80% in the United States, to 58%
in Australia, to 45% in South Africa, to 20.7% in the United Kingdom,
to under 1% in Japan and Honduras"

Why in general is Circumcision used, besides the command from God?

Science found many health and hygiene benefits from Circumcision,
even helps from contacting aids. Why day eight? Is there any good
scientific rationale behind such a command?

-Science has proven this is the best time for clotting to occur. in a man's lifetime.

Circumcision – The Day When Blood Coagulation Begins – The Yeshiva World

Circumcision is a problem because it is no longer required to be a chosen people by God. It longer exists. There is no more Jew, there is no circumcision, there is no more land promises.

But under the Law of the Mosaic Age, Circumcision was required in order to take possession of the Land and to be a chosen people. No circumcision = no land, no Temple privileges. They were effectively were cut off from Israel and land. See Genesis 17:9-14, Joshua 5:1-9.

What does that imply about the land of Palestine under a non-existant Covenant that requires no more fulfilling featuring an abrogated Law that includes circumcision?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Sad that on this thread among many others - so many folks just want to sell a theology rather than discuss a topic. Refusing to respond to questions.

We see in James 3 that the wisdom from above is reasonable - meaning 'able to be discussed'.

Most folks fail on this point - so one must ask if they are manifesting the Wisdom of God.

 

[Peacemaker1]

circumcision not of the heart is when a vail is on the heart, being healthy in the body is temporary when the soul is sick



Psalm 106:15And he gave them their request; but sent leanness into their soul.

Romans 2:29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

2 Corinthians 3:15But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.