Want to read criticism of EO belief/practice.

[cupid dave]

Your "explanation" is erroneous.

It is in direct contradiction to "Until heaven and earth pass, not one jot ot tiitle shall be removed from the law in any wise"

A clue here is "jot and tittle" indicating writing/scripture, thus the book of the law and the content within are not made null.

And Jesus wasn't doing anything in regard to Gentiles as we see in Mathew 10:

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

First, the Law and the prophets were not made null.
They were merely summed by the commandment to love God and love thy neigbors, which is a positive way of decreeing the same Law.

Second, the Jews (not the christian proselytites) will be judged by the Law they insist be applied to them, ignoring the equivalency of the summation Jesus recommended to them.

 

[cupid dave]

The law is indeed intact. Jesus demonstrated how we are not under it.

Yes, to some extent that is also true.

Christ corrected the rabbi interpretations of Torah which devised those 613 rules they developed into a complex set of laws based upon their scriptural arguments.

What the Jews had done over centuries was to "explain" how men must act, based on how they... mere men... understood the scriptures.

The Rabbi demonstrate this is true in the Talmud, where they "explain" their reasoning for maintaining Laws based upon what, o them, seems a reasonable prohibition in regard to what is written.

But, as you say, Jesus corrected them many times, like when the aposles ate without washing their hands, scavenged wheat on the sabbath, etc.

 

[Montalban]

Yes, you are correct in saying that the apostles agreed with what I just told you,... i.e.; the Torah teaches that Gentiles need only follow the Seven Noachide Laws.

I think Paul explained this to Peter and they all understood thereafter.

I don't know what the Seven Noachide Laws are. I've never heard of them. I only know that in the Bible it says that Gentiles under the control of the Jews (such as slaves) had to be circumcised.

 

[Rick Otto]

The Seven Laws of Noah (Hebrew: שבע מצוות בני נח‎ Sheva mitzvot B'nei Noach) form the major part of the Noachide Laws, or Noahide Code. This code is a set of moral imperatives that, according to the Talmud, were given by God as a binding set of laws for the "children of Noah" – that is, all of humankind.According to religious Judaism, any non-Jew who lives according to these laws is regarded as a Righteous Gentile, and is assured of a place in the world to come (Olam Haba), the final reward of the righteous. Adherents are often called "B'nei Noach" (Children of Noah) or "Noahides" and may often network in Jewish synagogues.



The seven laws listed by the Tosefta and the Talmud areProhibition of Idolatry

1. Prohibition of Murder
2. Prohibition of Theft
3. Prohibition of Sexual immorality
4. Prohibition of Blasphemy
5. Prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive, except waterfowl*
6. Establishment of courts of law

* OK, so I made up the waterfowl part.

 

[Huram Abi]

.According to religious Judaism, any non-Jew who lives according to these laws is regarded as a Righteous Gentile, and is assured of a place in the world to come (Olam Haba), the final reward of the righteous. Adherents are often called "B'nei Noach" (Children of Noah) or "Noahides" and may often network in Jewish synagogues.



.

You've got ger toshav confused with ger tzedek.

In order to have a place in the world to come, one must follow the whole Torah.

 

[Standing Up]

You've got ger toshav confused with ger tzedek.

In order to have a place in the world to come, one must follow the whole Torah.

Good luck with that yoke.

 

[Huram Abi]

They're not my rules.

 

[Montalban]

To my little understanding the Seven Laws of Noah apply to Gentiles, not to Gentiles who come under the control of Jews.

 

[Huram Abi]

Absolutely correct.


That is the minimum requirement to be a resident alien and it suits the Jewish community just fine.

But then there is a greater title,referenced by "one law for the Jew and the stranger than sojourns among you.


This title allows the Gentile to have every benefit of the law including paying lower taxes or fines and penalties.


Many people do not know that the old way was a 2-teired system and for a gentile who resides among Jews to come into the upper class they had to follow the Torah as a Jew.

By extension this came to mean that the portion of the afterlife reserved for God's elect was apportioned to these same Gentiles.


Now, I am not saying that this is my particular belief, but I am just correcting the post about the final reward through the Jewish perspective.

 

[razeontherock]

You've got ger toshav confused with ger tzedek.

In order to have a place in the world to come, one must follow the whole Torah.

Hmmm, don't see anywhere where Gentiles were placed under the law. They could do so voluntarily ...

 

[Knee V]

In order to have a place in the world to come, one must follow the whole Torah.

Which no one is able to do... so I guess we're all incised with one or more helical or advancing spiral threads.

 

[Montalban]

Hmmm, don't see anywhere where Gentiles were placed under the law. They could do so voluntarily ...

I cited this ages ago - Gen 17:9-14

 

[cupid dave]

Posted by Huram Abi

In order to have a place in the world to come, one must follow the whole Torah

Which no one is able to do... so I guess we're all incised with one or more helical or advancing spiral threads.

First, Harumi is wrong because Jesus told the young man who said he did follow the whole Torah that he had to do more.
Jesus said, sell all you have and give it to the poor, because the young man was rich, had followedbthe Laws, but knew he was still unsaved.

Second, Jesus told us that the sum of the Torah was to Love God and Love thy Neighbor.
That is not to hard to understand, but, as you say, difficult to do.

 

[cupid dave]

Hmmm, don't see anywhere where Gentiles were placed under the law. They could do so voluntarily ...

That is an interesting compromise to the errors announced by Harumi.

A proselytite in the day of Jesus had only observe the seven laws of Noah.
But the Jews may well insisted that was not enough to be as "good" as they who conformed to a study of the Torah.

Jesus was denying this in saying they had only agree to Love God and Love their neighbor.

So who do we follow, the Rabbi who did not recognize the Elijah returned in 32AD or The Christ who corrected them?

 

[cupid dave]

Your "explanation" is erroneous.

It is in direct contradiction to "Until heaven and earth pass, not one jot ot tiitle shall be removed from the law in any wise"

A clue here is "jot and tittle" indicating writing/scripture, thus the book of the law and the content within are not made null.

And Jesus wasn't doing anything in regard to Gentiles as we see in Mathew 10:

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Cupid Dave:

One of us is mistake, for sure.

First, the Jew is obligated under the Law to abide to every jot.

The issue concerns the Gentile converts especially in 32AD on.



Secondly, during the time Christ was with them, the apostles were, indeed, to proselytize only Jews.

But then his last command was to preach the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost over all the world:






19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


Remember????

 

[Huram Abi]

Hmmm, don't see anywhere where Gentiles were placed under the law. They could do so voluntarily ...

No reason to disagree here.

 

[Huram Abi]

Posted by Huram Abi

In order to have a place in the world to come, one must follow the whole Torah


​

First, Harumi is wrong because Jesus told the young man who said he did follow the whole Torah that he had to do more.


.

Yes, more. Not less.

 

[Huram Abi]

But then his last command was to preach the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost over all the world:


19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


Remember????

Sure do. I also remember that it says to teach them to "observe all things."

 

[Ortho_Cat]

boy this thread has really gotten derailed as of late... How bout you all start another Law /Torah thread or post in one of the 10 ones we have already...

 

[Kristos]

Tora! Tora! Tora!