Vesperal Liturgy

[All4Christ]

Lately, certain Feast Day liturgies have been celebrated as vesperal liturgies - and some baptisms in conjunction with feast day liturgies have been combined as baptismal liturgies in our parish. Some people I know feel very strongly that this is a deviation from what we should be doing, as vesperal and baptismal liturgies are not how these feast days traditionally were not combined, with few exceptions. Do you all find this to be a problem? What makes it so important to not combine services and follow the exact pattern it has been done in the past...especially if the bishop approves it?

 

[gzt]

According to the typicon, there are liturgies on the eve of Pascha, Theophany, and Nativity, with the other two following after Pascha. They are a kind of "preparation" on the eve of the feast before the vigil and festal liturgy for the day itself and are not really done in the evening. They are an additional liturgy before the feast done on a fasting day of preparation before the vigil. Also, there is a vesperal liturgy for Annunciation if it falls during the week, this is done because it is Lent and it gets weird. But it is written to always be done as such during the week, so nothing is being elided to do it in this manner, it is specifically designed that way.

There is a vast difference between the way this is done and the way other faux-vesperal liturgies are done. Namely, they remove all the aposticha and litiya material, all the matins materials, and remove the festal antiphons of the liturgy (those are important). They also really muck up the whole "liturgy of time", since services are put at points of time during the day for a reason.

And, personally, I really can't do an appropriate fast for evening services on days I work. I'd prefer vigil or just vespers, frankly. A parish I was at used to have 6:30 am weekday liturgies, every Thursday and feastdays. I was regularly there on the Thursdays until I wasn't able to do so anymore. They had a reasonable attendance. I realize that's not a solution for everyone, but it is a thought.

Bishop Tikhon has an article about them.

But, as always, follow your bishop, we aren't qualified to have opinions. HTC: Evening Divine Liturgies

 

[All4Christ]

According to the typicon, there are liturgies on the eve of Pascha, Theophany, and Nativity, with the other two following after Pascha. They are a kind of "preparation" on the eve of the feast before the vigil and festal liturgy for the day itself and are not really done in the evening. They are an additional liturgy before the feast done on a fasting day of preparation before the vigil. Also, there is a vesperal liturgy for Annunciation if it falls during the week, this is done because it is Lent and it gets weird. But it is written to always be done as such during the week, so nothing is being elided to do it in this manner, it is specifically designed that way. There is a vast difference between the way this is done and the way other faux-vesperal liturgies are done. Namely, they remove all the aposticha and litiya material, all the matins materials, and remove the festal antiphons of the liturgy (those are important). They also really muck up the whole "liturgy of time", since services are put at points of time during the day for a reason. And, personally, I really can't do an appropriate fast for evening services on days I work. I'd prefer vigil or just vespers, frankly. A parish I was at used to have 6:30 am weekday liturgies, every Thursday and feastdays. I was regularly there on the Thursdays until I wasn't able to do so anymore. They had a reasonable attendance. I realize that's not a solution for everyone, but it is a thought. Bishop Tikhon has an article about them. But, as always, follow your bishop, we aren't qualified to have opinions. HTC: Evening Divine Liturgies

For the sake of discussion (with the caveat of obeying the bishop despite whatever we talk about in the conversation), if bishops start to make a lot of decisions that seem to go against tradition, is there someone who should be keeping an eye on that, and keeping them accountable? I'm not saying this about any specific bishop necessarily. If traditions start to get lost (when there is a reason), should everyone stay quiet, since it is the bishop deciding that? Is it appropriate to discuss those concerns with your priest or would it be considered improper since it is in regards to a decision made by the bishop?

 

[ArmyMatt]

if bishops start to make a lot of decisions that seem to go against tradition, is there someone who should be keeping an eye on that, and keeping them accountable?

if it comes to the point of compromise of our faith, someone will rise up. we have Christ's guarantee.

 

[gzt]

For the sake of discussion (with the caveat of obeying the bishop despite whatever we talk about in the conversation), if bishops start to make a lot of decisions that seem to go against tradition, is there someone who should be keeping an eye on that, and keeping them accountable? I'm not saying this about any specific bishop necessarily. If traditions start to get lost (when there is a reason), should everyone stay quiet, since it is the bishop deciding that? Is it appropriate to discuss those concerns with your priest or would it be considered improper since it is in regards to a decision made by the bishop?

That's a much more expansive question than the first! No, I don't think that people should keep quiet for all kinds of things, but I don't think this sort of thing is enough of a liturgical abuse to warrant that, and there is some kind of leeway for bishops or even rectors to make liturgical decisions within certain bounds. But generally, sure, there are checks on what bishops can authorize.

 

[All4Christ]

That's a much more expansive question than the first! No, I don't think that people should keep quiet for all kinds of things, but I don't think this sort of thing is enough of a liturgical abuse to warrant that, and there is some kind of leeway for bishops or even rectors to make liturgical decisions within certain bounds. But generally, sure, there are checks on what bishops can authorize.

I agree about this not being to that level I probably should have clarified!

Your comment about us not being qualified to have opinions brought to mind some questions as to what boundaries there were in cases of liturgical decisions, beyond what would be allowable...who oversees the overseer, so to speak.

As a convert, and as someone who is not a theological seminary student, I need to (and do) trust that the bishop is leading us in the right direction...as liturgically I don't know enough. I am trusting my priest and the bishop to lead us correctly, so it's good to hear that there are checks. I'm exhausted so I may not be explaining it well.

 

[All4Christ]

I agree about this not being to that level I probably should have clarified! Your comment about us not being qualified to have opinions brought to mind some questions as to what boundaries there were in cases of liturgical decisions, beyond what would be allowable...who oversees the overseer, so to speak. As a convert, and as someone who is not a theological seminary student, I need to (and do) trust that the bishop is leading us in the right direction...as liturgically I don't know enough. I am trusting my priest and the bishop to lead us correctly, so it's good to hear that there are checks. I'm exhausted so I may not be explaining it well.

I guess my concern is more for the people around me that are very upset about this more so than for my own concern. One of my dearest friends is very traditional in making sure that traditions are upheld as they have been in the past. I hear a lot about it and wonder what I should suggest....discuss this person's concerns with our priest, or suggest to just keep quiet? I'm afraid it sometimes causes distraction from more important spiritual matters.

It is true that I would not know what elements are important to keep from changing at all costs and which ones are ok to change at pastoral discretion...I have not been trained enough to know. Instead, I trust my priest to teach me and direct me. This person has been taught by a previous priest that it is seriously wrong to change any of these things...and this person takes everything that this priest has taught as being of very high importance.

 

[gzt]

If somebody else is concerned, they should talk to the priest themselves.

 

[All4Christ]

If somebody else is concerned, they should talk to the priest themselves.

I didn't mean me talking to the priest...I meant suggesting that they talk to the priest instead of just talking about it to me a lot.