Vatican official calls assisted suicide of U.S. woman "reprehensible"

[MikeK]

Got it. Soldiers fighting a desperate battle, but hoping to survive it, are exactly the same as suicide bombers, who want to die to accomplish their goals.

Nobody said that and it is dishonest of you to suggest it. Bravery is bravery. Either facing death for a cause you believe in is an example of bravery or it isn't. Bravery does not hinge on the morality or popularity of the cause one supports.

 

[MoonlessNight]

Hardly. One more time: both are putting their lives on the line for something they believe in. In that regard, they are the same. Just because the circumstances aren't exactly the same doesn't mean they're "completely different" and the point I made remains even if they were - they are both brave. If you want to pretend otherwise, knock yourself out.

I will grant that they are the same "in that regard" but I don't think that that is the reason why people refer to them as "brave" or "cowardly" which, as you may recall, was the whole reason that the analogy was made in the first place. So the two situations are only the "same" if you consider choosing death to be a brave action. But this is precisely what is in contention in this thread!

On the other hand the examples that I gave are the same in regards to that both involve someone choosing to end his own life. It has at least been implied in this thread (though I will admit that no one has come out and directly said this) that Brittany Maynard was "brave" precisely because she choose to end her own life. For anyone who does hold that position, the two examples I gave (of someone dying of a terminal disease and a high school student depressed from a break up) both seem to share that characteristic. So if one suicide is allowed and assisted and the other (presumably) would be prevented, what distinguishes them? I say that we would only distinguish them because we valued the life of a high school student more than an ill person, but you or anyone else is free to suggest other possibilities.

In any case, I have explained here and elsewhere why I consider the shared characteristic between the suicide bomber and the soldier facing life and death odds to be irrelevant, and why I consider the shared characteristic between the suicidal terminally ill patient and the suicidal high school student to be very relevant. You are free to show me why I am wrong.

Nobody said that and it is dishonest of you to suggest it. Bravery is bravery. Either facing death for a cause you believe in is an example of bravery or it isn't. Bravery does not hinge on the morality or popularity of the cause one supports.

You are using a definition of bravery that I am disputing, as I explain above and in previous posts. But just to be sure I will explain in even more detail below:

I would say that it is brave to do something in spite of the risk of death, but not to take one's own life. we say someone is brave because they do something in spite of the fearful nature of the action for whatever reason. Now in the case of someone who desires death, either for martyrdom or to end pain, death is not fearful to that person and there is nothing brave about choosing it. But when we look at the example of a soldier who braves what seems like certain death, we see that he does not desire death but some other action. In the oft cited case of a soldier jumping on a grenade, he desires to save his comrades, not to die from a grenade. We see this by realizing that if he was truly brave, then he would not be upset to survive the blast, as long as his comrades were protected from the blast.

 

[Gwendolyn]

There is a difference between someone who doesn't want to face suffering, someone who is severely depressed, and suicide bombers.

David Foster Wallace had a great way to explain what suicide is like for the psychotically depressed:

“The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire’s flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It’s not desiring the fall; it’s terror of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don’t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You’d have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling.”

I have felt that terror and have suffered that deeply. I'm lucky I got help (maybe even some divine help).

Depression is a very, very different thing than terminal illness or terrorism.

 

[parousia70]

Doesn't it take more bravery to live?

Would you have said that to Jesus while he was up on on the cross?

 

[Mary's Bhoy]

Would you have said that to Jesus while he was up on on the cross?

Except there is a stark difference between suicide and sacrifice. Before you go canonising this poor woman, I strongly urge you to refrain from making any comparison between her suicide and the Passion and Death of our most holy Redeemer.

Yours in Jesus and Mary,
Mary's Bhoy.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

Would you have said that to Jesus while he was up on on the cross?

You do realize that was a sacrifice that had to be made to redeem mankind, right?

Not suicide because he was sick and didn't want to cope.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

Another thing. Christ didn't go to the Jews and Romans saying, "Kill me, please." He preached the Gospel and knew what his "punishment" would be, and he accepted it, because that was then will of the Father, the ony way to redeem all of creation. There's a vast difference in him accepting what had to be done, for the redemption of mankind, and knowing that he would rise again the third day, than begging to be crucified and killed because he didn't want to live with his wounds from being lashed.

 

[Michie]

Would you have said that to Jesus while he was up on on the cross?

I'm not talking about Jesus' sacrifice for our salvation. What a weird thing to say in this thread. I hope you are not comparing ODing on pills to avoid a messy death & what Jesus did for us. Not comparable.

 

[Maynard Keenan]

Can you not see that when we do this we are saying that some people have lives that are worth less than others? How can we say that a cancer patient can be assisted in suicide because of pain from the disease, but a high school student can't be assisted in suicide because of pain from a broken relationship, unless we say that one life is worth less, or that one decision is worth less?

I do not see that. When assisted suicide is allowed only in cases of impending, inevitable death I don't see it as choosing to die, but rather choosing how to die. I see it as akin to a condemned prisoner asking for lethal injection as opposed to the electric chair. The prisoner didn't, by way of choosing the method of his death, choose to die. The death sentence has already been passed down. The terminal cancer patient, like the condemned prisoner, did not choose to die. But death is fast approaching, and options are available as to how that death occurs. So, from the perspective of society and of government, we will not help you if you choose to die. But, if you are dying, we will help you choose how it occurs.

 

[parousia70]

Except there is a stark difference between suicide and sacrifice. Before you go canonising this poor woman, I strongly urge you to refrain from making any comparison between her suicide and the Passion and Death of our most holy Redeemer.

Yours in Jesus and Mary,
Mary's Bhoy.

I suppose it's too late for that.

The Fact is that Jesus CHOSE to Die for us.

He Could have chosen to live out his natural life, but He elected to Die that day instead.

How fortunate we all are because He made that Choice.

 

[parousia70]

I do not see that. When assisted suicide is allowed only in cases of impending, inevitable death I don't see it as choosing to die, but rather choosing how to die. I see it as akin to a condemned prisoner asking for lethal injection as opposed to the electric chair. The prisoner didn't, by way of choosing the method of his death, choose to die. The death sentence has already been passed down. The terminal cancer patient, like the condemned prisoner, did not choose to die. But death is fast approaching, and options are available as to how that death occurs. So, from the perspective of society and of government, we will not help you if you choose to die. But, if you are dying, we will help you choose how it occurs.

This.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

What you fail to understand MK, is that we are all terminally ill. We are all dying. Most of us are sick in one way or the other. Physical death will take all of us. Just because her physical death was predicted to be sooner rather than later, doesn't make suicide to get it over with the right or better option. Where do we stop? Soon there will be loons choosing to kill themselves before old age sets in because they don't want to struggle with it.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

I suppose it's too late for that. The Fact is that Jesus CHOSE to Die for us. He Could have chosen to live out his natural life, but He elected to Die that day instead. How fortunate we all are because He made that Choice.

What do I have to be fortunate for for Brittany Maynard's death?

 

[parousia70]

What do I have to be fortunate for for Brittany Maynard's death?

You receive neither fortune nor misfortune from her death.

As far as I can tell, her death should have a net zero effect on you.

 

[Maynard Keenan]

What you fail to understand MK, is that we are all terminally ill. We are all dying. Most of us are sick in one way or the other. Physical death will take all of us. Just because her physical death was predicted to be sooner rather than later, doesn't make suicide to get it over with the right or better option. Where do we stop? Soon there will be loons choosing to kill themselves before old age sets in because they don't want to struggle with it.

Some people already kill themselves to avoid ageing. As others have said, it's not like you can make laws to punish people for killing themselves. But I would oppose any legal effort to help people do so. That would be me, and us as a society, helping people choose TO die, as opposed to helping them manage their already impending death.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

Her suicide does have an effect on me. I'm not very good at it sometimes, but I do try to love my neighbor. I do worry for her soul. And don't tell me that's not my place. I believe in hell.

And before the typical, well do you worry about this this and this? Do you care about this this and this? Yes. I pray for daily for babies killed in their mothers wombs, and the people slaughtered in the Middle East. I do pray for and feed the homeless. When I'm AWARE of something terrible like that, it concerns me and I pray.

 

[BeachSun]

We've called suicide bombers cowards for years, while applauding the bravery of our servicemen when they face great risks or even certain death for causes we support. We've never been real consistent about what we call bravery.

As an Army mom, this is one of the mose offensive posts I've read on this board. For you to not see the difference in those 2 situations..... No words.

 

[MoonlessNight]

I do not see that. When assisted suicide is allowed only in cases of impending, inevitable death I don't see it as choosing to die, but rather choosing how to die. I see it as akin to a condemned prisoner asking for lethal injection as opposed to the electric chair. The prisoner didn't, by way of choosing the method of his death, choose to die. The death sentence has already been passed down. The terminal cancer patient, like the condemned prisoner, did not choose to die. But death is fast approaching, and options are available as to how that death occurs. So, from the perspective of society and of government, we will not help you if you choose to die. But, if you are dying, we will help you choose how it occurs

As Athelstan notes, everyone dies, so death is inevitable for everyone. Therefore every suicide could be viewed as a choice of how to die.

This is particularly important to realize because in many cases where we are asked to allow for assisted suicide, the patient may have a terminal disease, but one with manageable symptoms and one which may not kill them for years (though of course it is impossible to say exactly how long any patient may live). Generally we aren't discussing situations where there is a risk of the patient dying the next day.

Another important note here is that how long someone can live is often dependent on the amount of help that they receive from others. As an analogy (and as we've learned to be careful about analogies, I will spell out exactly what I think is relevant about this analogy), consider the following: Suppose we came across a car accident, and one of the people involved was severely injured, but conscious. He tells us "this pain is unbearable, and so I wish I could die" or "I can't feel my legs and I'd rather die than live without being to walk" or in some other way expresses a desire to die because of his condition. Do we call an ambulance (or at the very least try to convince him that he should not give up on life) or do we help him kill himself?

Now here is what I think is relevant about this example: the man really is dying and he really does want to die. There is no guarantee that we will be able to save him if he does receive medical attention, because his injuries are severe. If he does survive, he may be permanently crippled. So in many sense this is a terminal patient, with only two differences that I can see between him and a terminally ill patient: the first that he is injured and not ill (but I don't think that the way that someone gets close to death has entered into our discussion of suicide) and the second is that he is probably actually closer to death than a terminally ill patient (which by your reasoning would seem to give him more justification to demand suicide).

Or consider someone with a mental disease that leads to very strong suicidal compulsions. In fact, we can say that these compulsions are frequent enough and strong enough that left unassisted and untreated, that person will commit suicide. Then in a sense we could say that that person is dying of the disease, since given enough time it will kill him. Would we tell this person that we understand why he wants to commit suicide, or would we offer him treatment?

All these situations are very different from your example of a prisoner on death row, because the prisoner on death row has literally been sentenced to death (and after a point, he will even now the day and perhaps even the hour of his death). It is not a question of "given enough time, he will die because of an execution" but rather that we are intentionally arranging so that will happen (even saving his life should he die before the appointed execution!) Because of all of this his death is much more certain than a terminally ill patient. A terminally ill patient can at least in principle be saved, but (if we do not change our minds and we have good security) the death row prisoner cannot.

Even with those problems, your analogy would be a little more accurate if you spoke about a death row prisoner who found a way to hang himself in his cell rather than wait for his execution. But I think that even this would make your analogy less compelling.

 

[AvilaSurfer]

Would you have said that to Jesus while he was up on on the cross?

There seems to be a disease on this thread. Bad comparisons.

 

[MikeK]

As an Army mom, this is one of the mose offensive posts I've read on this board. For you to not see the difference in those 2 situations..... No words.

For you to suggest that I see no difference in in those two situations suggests that you did not read what I said and consider it and instead let your emotions take you somewhere I didn't go. There exists a vast chasm of difference between those two situations, but that does not mean that both do not require bravery. It isn't easy for anyone to risk or give their life, even for a cause they believe in.

Thank you son for his service. I come from a military family and had a cup of coffee in the armed services as well.