US foreign / Middle East policy = death of ME Christianity?

[Disippelen]

How would you rate the United States' foreign policy in the Middle East concerning the situation and survival of the ancient Christian communities there? Does the American strategy of substituting secular dictatorships, who protected Christians, with Islamists, who seek to cleanse their countries of infidels, really have the support of the American people?

 

[seashale76]

US foreign policy seems to work against Christians every time. The government certainly doesn't have MY support in doing those things (and I know quite a few here in the US who agree with me). Ron Paul and I have identical views on the US government getting involved in that fashion. Unfortunately, it's all about petrodollar warfare.

 

[Disippelen]

US foreign policy seems to work against Christians every time. The government certainly doesn't have MY support in doing those things (and I know quite a few here in the US who agree with me). Ron Paul and I have identical views on the US government getting involved in that fashion. Unfortunately, it's all about petrodollar warfare.

Yeah, it seems so. How should this be handled by Christians and others who would want the defence of human rights to be lifted higher? Of course, making politicians here in Europe to understand and focus on the same issues is also very hard. Still, I believe that the power of the US makes its political choices even more important to the world, as they will have a stronger impact on all of us.

But the major powers have almost always focused on securing power and economy, not freedom or justice. The fight against and defeat of Hitler in WW2, a joint West-East venture, is an important exception to this rule.

Looking at the choices of the US over the last century though, I miss a stronger focus on real democracy and aid to the poor and oppressed. There is more than enough rhetoric and promises (as politicians always give). Examples are the peace negotiations and treaties after WW1, where the minorities of the ME were betrayed - as they are today.

In the US, are voters bound to support the candidates picked by the political parties, or can the voters actually decide the election by personal votes? Here, you can write or mark specific names on the electoral lists during elections, making it possible to vote in other people than the top names on the lists. In fact, in last years local elections almost all the top-people of one of the parties in the capital were kicked out because the voters had communicated with one another and had written a list of names they preferred themselves (not the official party list).

Of course, some of the old-timers lost their positions and were shocked (that people used their rights to vote for the people they wanted).

 

[Touma]

It really is. Ask the Christians of Iraq how they are faring after that whole ordeal. Or the Christians in Syria that are being killed by rebels with US weapons.

 

[Disippelen]

It really is. Ask the Christians of Iraq how they are faring after that whole ordeal. Or the Christians in Syria that are being killed by rebels with US weapons.

Exactly. What is your impression of how Americans view US foreign policy? What about the views of Christians in particular? I sometimes get the impression that many Christians support their political idols no matter what, the last years on the Republican side.

 

[Touma]

Exactly. What is your impression of how Americans view US foreign policy? What about the views of Christians in particular? I sometimes get the impression that many Christians support their political idols no matter what, the last years on the Republican side.

Many Christians here view foreign policy through the lens of their preferred eschatology viewpoint. They believe a war between good and evil is nearby. The US and Israel is good. Iran, Syria, Egypt, China, Russia, etc are all bad. They base their beliefs a lot on the Left Behind kind of theology.

I have literally seen Christians on these forums not feel any shame when we report the deaths of Arab Christians at the hands of US or Israel or whoever. One poster said something like "Well, they should move out of the war zone".

This is the very reason that politics and religion must not combine. You have a bastardization of both. Who ever would have thought that a confessing Christian would not feel any sympathy for their suffering brother or sister, because it went against their political and theological viewpoint?

Makes me sick.

 

[seashale76]

Many Christians here view foreign policy through the lens of their preferred eschatology viewpoint. They believe a war between good and evil is nearby. The US and Israel is good. Iran, Syria, Egypt, China, Russia, etc are all bad. They base their beliefs a lot on the Left Behind kind of theology.

I have literally seen Christians on these forums not feel any shame when we report the deaths of Arab Christians at the hands of US or Israel or whoever. One poster said something like "Well, they should move out of the war zone".

This is the very reason that politics and religion must not combine. You have a bastardization of both. Who ever would have thought that a confessing Christian would not feel any sympathy for their suffering brother or sister, because it went against their political and theological viewpoint?

Makes me sick.

You nailed it. Eschatology is a strong lens through which to view the world. My question always is- what if one's preferred eschatological view is the wrong one? It isn't right to go around demonizing people because of an interpretation of a prophetic book with lots of symbolism, types, and anti-types. You could eventually be found to be way off base.

 

[Kalevalatar]

Many Christians here view foreign policy through the lens of their preferred eschatology viewpoint. They believe a war between good and evil is nearby. The US and Israel is good. Iran, Syria, Egypt, China, Russia, etc are all bad. They base their beliefs a lot on the Left Behind kind of theology.

I have literally seen Christians on these forums not feel any shame when we report the deaths of Arab Christians at the hands of US or Israel or whoever. One poster said something like "Well, they should move out of the war zone".

This is the very reason that politics and religion must not combine. You have a bastardization of both. Who ever would have thought that a confessing Christian would not feel any sympathy for their suffering brother or sister, because it went against their political and theological viewpoint?

Makes me sick.

You nailed it. Eschatology is a strong lens through which to view the world. My question always is- what if one's preferred eschatological view is the wrong one? It isn't right to go around demonizing people because of an interpretation of a prophetic book with lots of symbolism, types, and anti-types. You could eventually be found to be way off base.

Indeed and indeed. Although I do take exception the that idea that politics and religion don't mix: "love thy neighbour" and "do unto others as" are an excellent foundation for just politics.

Unfortunately, some Christians have turned the modern state of Israel into their a golden calf to worship. These Christians seem more excited about OT Israel than NT Jesus Christ. Clearly, eschatology must be more entertaining and suitable for big screen. One wonders, what would happen if the modern state of Israel, theorethically, suddenly ceased to exist. Would everything Jesus Christ said and did become undone and null & void? Is these people's Christian faith tied to the very existence of the thoroughly modern state of Israel?

Christ said, "You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life."

Christ did not say, "These are the very Scriptures that testify about the state of Israel" and that "in the state of Israel you have eternal life", yet some Christians still insist on reading the Scripture exactly this way, to their own detriment.

It is my conviction that when it comes to a military occupier and the oppressed occupied, Christ would be sympathetic to the suffering of the occupied.

And my fellow Christians and our sister church in the Holy Land are victims of the state of Israel's unjust military occupation just as their Muslim neighbours are.

Challenges for Palestinian Christians in Jerusalem

Pastor Azar (of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of the Redeemer in Jerusalem) estimates that about 100 families have emigrated to other countries, and that about 20 families are now behind the separation wall, which makes coming to church completely unpredictable if not impossible.

"The Jerusalem congregation is now divided in three parts: About 55% of our members live around the Old City before the checkpoint; another 25% live between the checkpoint and the Wall; and the remaining 20% live outside the Wall. This fragments the congregation, alienates one from one another and makes it almost impossible to come together as a whole community."

The wall - built largely on Palestinian land - isolates East Jerusalem from the rest of the West Bank and wreaks havoc on the fabric of Palestinian life. International law does not recognize Israel's unilateral annexation of much of East Jerusalem, and thus it is considered occupied territory under that law. Nevertheless, with the building of the wall and the increasing difficulty in obtaining permits for travel to Jerusalem, the separation of East Jerusalem from the rest of the West Bank is now virtually complete.

Traditionally, East Jerusalem has contributed about 30-40% of the economy to Palestinian areas; any two-state solution that does not give Palestinians access to East Jerusalem (and vice versa) will not be a viable solution.

Forbidden Families

Pastor Azar also estimates that another 20 families are "forbidden families." Since 2002, Israel has refused to issue the permits necessary in Jerusalem when one spouse does not have a Jerusalem ID but they want to live there, or have been living there for years.

For example, Rimaz is illegal in her own home. She was arrested 3 times while pregnant, taken to the police headquarters in a squad car, where she avoided a strip search only when a priest she had worked with came to the station on her behalf. Her crime? Living in Jerusalem with her family without the proper permit. In June of 2003 a temporary order that suspended the issuing of family unification permits was passed, and has continued to be extended and upheld as recently as January 2012. Under this law, family unification permits are no longer given to those whose spouses are from the West Bank.

Born in Nablus, Rimaz married Ghassan, now Redeemer's organist, in 1996, when the hopes from Oslo were still fairly high. Almost 15 years, 3 children and 1 intifada later, Rimaz still does not have the Israeli government's permission to live with her family. From the porch of their home, the house where Ghassan grew up and where they and his mother share the house, the top of the gray concrete slabs of the wall that now separate them from the rest of the West Bank peek out through the trees.

For years their only legal choice, if they wanted to live as a family, was to move to the West Bank. But Ghassan and the three children would then lose their Jerusalem IDs, which entitled them to health insurance and pension which they have paid taxes for as long as they lived there. The rest of the family would then also forfeit permission to live in and even perhaps visit - or work in - Jerusalem.

In 2006, however, Rimaz was granted a 12 month residency permit, which temporarily gave her the right to live in Jerusalem for one year. But even with this permit, she was not permitted to drive her husband's yellow-plated car, nor to access health or pension benefits, which come with having the actual Jerusalem IDs.

These are just examples of the problems facing Palestinians today, which fall harder on Palestinian Christians because of their already small numbers and extended families throughout the area.
​

And the United States of America is the strongest backer of these oppressive policies and it won't change and it won't stop until Christians in the US wake up. I suspect that many just don't know, don't realize that Israeli occupation policies also apply to Palestinian Christians and that it's not their Muslim neighbours who are forcing them out of their homes & land but the policies of the state of Israel.

KAIROS PALESTINE:
A word of faith, hope and love from the heart of the Palestinian suffering

This document is the Christian Palestinians’ word to the world about what is happening in Palestine. It is written at this time when we wanted to see the Glory of the grace of God in this land and in the sufferings of its people. In this spirit the document requests the international community to stand by the Palestinian people who have faced oppression, displacement, suffering and clear apartheid for more than six decades.

The suffering continues while the international community silently looks on at the occupying State, Israel. Our word is a cry of hope, with love, prayer and faith in God. We address it first of all to ourselves and then to all the churches and Christians in the world, asking them to stand against injustice and apartheid, urging them to work for a just peace in our region, calling on them to revisit theologies that justify crimes perpetrated against our people and the dispossession of the land.

In this historic document, we Palestinian Christians declare that the military occupation of our land is a sin against God and humanity, and that any theology that legitimizes the occupation is far from Christian teachings because true Christian theology is a theology of love and solidarity with the oppressed, a call to justice and equality among peoples.

This document did not come about spontaneously, and it is not the result of a coincidence. It is not a theoretical theological study or a policy paper, but is rather a document of faith and work. Its importance stems from the sincere expression of the concerns of the people and their view of this moment in history we are living through. It seeks to be prophetic in addressing things as they are without equivocation and with boldness, in addition it puts forward ending the Israeli occupation of Palestinian land and all forms of discrimination as the solution that will lead to a just and lasting peace.

The document also demands that all peoples, political leaders and decision-makers put pressure on Israel and take legal measures in order to oblige its government to put an end to its oppression and disregard for the international law. The document also holds a clear position that non-violent resistance to this injustice is a right and duty for all Palestinians including Christians.

The initiators of this document have been working on it for more than a year, in prayer and discussion, guided by their faith in God and their love for their people, accepting advice from many friends: Palestinians, Arabs and those from the wider international community. We are grateful to our friends for their solidarity with us.
​

 

[LionofJudahDK]

Liberation theology has never been orthodox. It is simply taking the Gospel hostage for the sake of one's own political agenda, and it's despicable beyond words.

 

[Kalevalatar]

Liberation theology has never been orthodox. It is simply taking the Gospel hostage for the sake of one's own political agenda, and it's despicable beyond words.

And yet, the Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church, th Anglican Church, the Orthodox churches, Coptic and Armenian churches, all they side with their Christian Palestinian brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[TrutherAU]

Liberation theology has never been orthodox. It is simply taking the Gospel hostage for the sake of one's own political agenda, and it's despicable beyond words.

What kalevalatar is pointing out is NOT Liberation theology by any stretch. It is social justice for fellow Christians.
By the same token Christian Zionism isnt orthodox Christian theology either. Only neo con americans believe it is!.

 

[LionofJudahDK]

What kalevalatar is pointing out is NOT Liberation theology by any stretch. It is social justice for fellow Christians.
By the same token Christian Zionism isnt orthodox Christian theology either. Only neo con americans believe it is!.

Depending on what kind of Christian Zionism we're talking about.
If it's the dispensationalist kind, then I totally agree, because that ends up with the Cross being a mistake, and that the original idea was for Jesus to actually become an earthly king of Israel at the time.

If it's the idea that the Jewish people, like all other peoples, have the right to their native land, while we await Jesus' return, after which all earthly distinctions will be meaningless, then it most definitely CAN be orthodox.

We should pray for a peace that both parties can live with, and support the efforts of those on both sides that strive towards that peace, as well as reconciliation on an individual basis (as both the Danish and Norwegian Missions to Israel have great experiences with). But we should not lay all the blame for the conflict on Israel's shoulder. Doing so has nothing to do with justice of any kind - social or otherwise.

 

[LionofJudahDK]

And yet, the Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church, th Anglican Church, the Orthodox churches, Coptic and Armenian churches, all they side with their Christian Palestinian brothers and sisters in Christ.

A mistake does not become less so, by the number of people supporting it.
If I see a Christian blame everyone else for all his problems, it doesn't make that claim less false, if other Christians support him in this.

Israel's former PM, Golda Meir, nailed it when she said:

Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.

 

[TrutherAU]

If it's the idea that the Jewish people, like all other peoples, have the right to their native land, while we await Jesus' return, after which all earthly distinctions will be meaningless, then it most definitely CAN be orthodox.

Except the anti christ will come before christs second coming. Many christians & jews might mistake him for jesus.
They might except the false messiah and be be dammed for eternity.
In fact it is more likely that many jews will accept the AC as their long awaited messiah because afterall they did not except jesus the first time round so most likely AC will fit the bill for the Jewish messiah. After AC is prophecised to sit in King Solomans Rebuilt temple this is what all jews want to see happen.

 

[LionofJudahDK]

Except the anti christ will come before christs second coming. Many christians & jews might mistake him for jesus.
They might except the false messiah and be be dammed for eternity.
In fact it is more likely that many jews will accept the AC as their long awaited messiah because afterall they did not except jesus the first time round so most likely AC will fit the bill for the Jewish messiah. After AC is prophecised to sit in King Solomans Rebuilt temple this is what all jews want to see happen.

Sorry, I don't buy into the whole "The antichrist is a person who'll rule the world before Jesus comes again"-thing. It's a product of lack of knowledge of the Scriptures in their totality, and it's flat-out ridiculous, unbiblical, and incoherent

 

[Touma]

Depending on what kind of Christian Zionism we're talking about.
If it's the dispensationalist kind, then I totally agree, because that ends up with the Cross being a mistake, and that the original idea was for Jesus to actually become an earthly king of Israel at the time.

If it's the idea that the Jewish people, like all other peoples, have the right to their native land, while we await Jesus' return, after which all earthly distinctions will be meaningless, then it most definitely CAN be orthodox.

We should pray for a peace that both parties can live with, and support the efforts of those on both sides that strive towards that peace, as well as reconciliation on an individual basis (as both the Danish and Norwegian Missions to Israel have great experiences with). But we should not lay all the blame for the conflict on Israel's shoulder. Doing so has nothing to do with justice of any kind - social or otherwise.

What about the Canaanites that live there before the Jews? Do they have a right to that land?

 

[LionofJudahDK]

What about the Canaanites that live there before the Jews? Do they have a right to that land?

Find me a Cana'anite, and I'll answer your question....but I'm not holding my breath while you try

 

[seashale76]

Sorry, I don't buy into the whole "The antichrist is a person who'll rule the world before Jesus comes again"-thing. It's a product of lack of knowledge of the Scriptures in their totality, and it's flat-out ridiculous, unbiblical, and incoherent

It's completely biblical. It's premillenial dispensationalism that is confusing and unbiblical. We weren't guaranteed a ticket out of martyrdom and suffering.

 

[LionofJudahDK]

It's completely biblical.

No, it isn't.

It's premillenial dispensationalism that is confusing and unbiblical. We weren't guaranteed a ticket out of martyrdom and suffering.

The whole timeline-system on which the entirety of this nonsense stands, is contrary to Scripture.
Jesus' return will come "like a thief in the night", with no one (not even the Son) knowing when.

 

[TrutherAU]

Sorry, I don't buy into the whole "The antichrist is a person who'll rule the world before Jesus comes again"-thing. It's a product of lack of knowledge of the Scriptures in their totality, and it's flat-out ridiculous, unbiblical, and incoherent

To think you trying to tell me this? Someone whom has studied theology at tertiary level and understands the gospels and all the end times theories that exist,that this unbiblical? So what verse passages do you want to show that proves your claim any verses, passages you might want to share. Or is this just personal opinion.