Universalism

[PT Calvinist]

Since when did most mormons believe this anyway?!

I suppose you think that universalists say it's ok to do drugs and sleep around as well?

*sigh*

1.) Mormons have alwaysed believed that

2.) No I don't think Universalists say it's ok to do drugs and fornicate. I do believe that any non-christian would take it that way though.

 

[LightSeaker]

Dangers of Universalism:

Illustration of how Universalism can be dangerous:

Universalist: "Listen here Mormon, if you continue to believe that you can become a god, that Satan and Jesus are literal brothers, that God has a body of flesh and bones and has a goddess wife, and that you can become a god of your own world, you know what is going to happen to you? You're going to heaven! So there!"

Mormon: "Sounds good to me."

Sounds good to me too. But I tend to look at God with in ones heart, not the doctrine they believe.

.

 

[Tissue]

That has been the source of much philosophical discussion. Some have said even a bad existance is better than never getting to exist, God values even a bad life. Others argue that God put up with those who reject Him because to have a willing chosen love is so precious.

The first possibility is just foolishness, in light of eternal torment.

The second possibility could only work of humanity were somehow connected to one another. But they are not. There will be some, under a doctrine of eternal hell, who know nothing of the 'preciousness' of willing, chosen love. For them, the world is infinitely evil, and their experienced evil will last for an eternity.

You can't use an infinity like that in a formula that justifies God. It doesn't work. I tried.

All I know is, based on past prophecy such as Christs first comming, prophecy is 100% litteral and 100% accurate.

Well that's not true. There are false prophecies all the time.

But if you mean that all prophecies from God are 100% literal and accurate, I would still argue that first point; tons of prophecy we find in Scripture is figurative/poetic. Prophecy is not, by its nature, rigidly literal.

But if you mean that all prophecies from God are accurate, then I would ask what your criteria are for determining whether or not a prophecy actually is from God (except for affirmation in hindsight).

It is not prediction it is the fore telling of truth, and it is all through scripture. I have heard it said that for every one prophecy about Christ's first coming there are at least six of the second coming.
From 2 Peter 3: 3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."
Many say this is already happening and as predicted peoples hearts will grow cold and apostacy is taking place, as predicted.

All I know is just because God knows does not mean it is not our choice, and we better chose right.

What does this have to do with prophecy, or the second coming?

 

[red77]

Who set this "rule" that all 3 HAVE to come to pass?
Or come to pass in the way you believe they must?

Can God not decide to use force to bring about His will?

He surely can, and He surely DOES! ISince it's not God's
WILL that we sin, this proves that He allows what He
does not want.

By God NOT getting His way, His permissive will is accomplished;
which allows man to do evil and suffer.
His will IS done in "all 3" - one is just another way of accomplishment

The problem here are your expectations on God that don't
exist in reality; and you hinge your theology on that false
premise.
ie. creating a false doctrine that doesn't even have to exist
except in your personalized demand on the rules for God.

It's not a rule. The article simply points out that different theolgical positions can't adopt all three.
God desires/wills that all are saved. This is in scripture. Your doctrine states that two and three will happen but not one. Nobody is arguing that God allows things to happen that He wouldn't desire people to do in the world as it is now.

 

[2 King]

Dangers of Universalism:

Illustration of how Universalism can be dangerous:

Universalist: "Listen here Mormon, if you continue to believe that you can become a god, that Satan and Jesus are literal brothers, that God has a body of flesh and bones and has a goddess wife, and that you can become a god of your own world, you know what is going to happen to you? You're going to heaven! So there!"

Mormon: "Sounds good to me."

Forgive me, but I found this to be very amusing LOL! ROFL!

Especially where the Mormon simply replies: "Sounds good to me"
Is this off some religious joke website?

 

[red77]

1.) Mormons have alwaysed believed that

2.) No I don't think Universalists say it's ok to do drugs and fornicate. I do believe that any non-christian would take it that way though.

There's plenty of mormons I've met who don't believe all or any of that....

Why, because the only thing that matters is avoiding an eternal fiery pit?

 

[red77]

There is the point of contention:
I never said He can't
I said He won't, because we are more important, our hearts are of emmence value to Him, He can create all the worship drones He wants, He wants children, and He can only have children who chose to be adopted by Him.

By saying 'God can only have' is equivalent to saying God can't rather than wont.

 

[Nadiine]

Forgive me, but I found this to be very amusing LOL! ROFL!

Especially where the Mormon simply replies: "Sounds good to me"
Is this off some religious joke website?

 

[CaDan]

Does God desire that women get abortions for selfish reasons?

Does God desire that 4 year old's get raped by pedophiles?
Murdered?

Does God DESIRE the evil we see all over this world?

This proves that God has more than one will.
He desires perfection and goodness, but that is NOT what
He gets and He surely isn't forcing it.
He desires all will repent, but that's not what He gets.

He came to earth to call sinners to repent too, did they ALL
repent? Nope, His crucifixion is proof of that.

Jesus requested that the cup pass from Him, did it pass?
Nope.

Just becuz God desires something, doesn't mean he does it
or gets it.
He has a PERMISSIVE WILL where He allows the brokenness
and sin nature to operate.

There are studies done on the will(s) of God.

That's some "wisdom of men" right there, it is. You are reduced to theological constructs to support the position you want to hold.

 

[CaDan]

Dangers of Universalism:

Illustration of how Universalism can be dangerous:

Universalist: "Listen here Mormon, if you continue to believe that you can become a god, that Satan and Jesus are literal brothers, that God has a body of flesh and bones and has a goddess wife, and that you can become a god of your own world, you know what is going to happen to you? You're going to heaven! So there!"

Mormon: "Sounds good to me."

LOL @ Reformed preaching Arminianism in order to scapegoat the CF Reformed Crew's favorite target (since they can't get at the Catholics).

 

[red77]

Does God desire that women get abortions for selfish reasons?

Does God desire that 4 year old's get raped by pedophiles?
Murdered?

Does God DESIRE the evil we see all over this world?

This proves that God has more than one will.
He desires perfection and goodness, but that is NOT what
He gets and He surely isn't forcing it.
He desires all will repent, but that's not what He gets.

He came to earth to call sinners to repent too, did they ALL
repent? Nope, His crucifixion is proof of that.

Jesus requested that the cup pass from Him, did it pass?
Nope.

Just becuz God desires something, doesn't mean he does it
or gets it.
He has a PERMISSIVE WILL where He allows the brokenness
and sin nature to operate.

There are studies done on the will(s) of God.

As I've already answered earlier I'm not arguing that God allows things to happen in the present that would hardly be desirable. But in the scheme of creation and eternity then I see no argument that disproves God being able to fulfill his will in bringing all men to the truth. If God works these things out in accordance with His will then from the outset it's bemusing to think that almighty God knew that He wouldn't be able to fulfill what He wills.....

 

[Nadiine]

It's not a rule. The article simply points out that different theolgical positions can't adopt all three.
God desires/wills that all are saved. This is in scripture. Your doctrine states that two and three will happen but not one. Nobody is arguing that God allows things to happen that He wouldn't desire people to do in the world as it is now.

Again, God desires that we not sin either - yet we sin,
so I ask you again,
Is God's will accomplished when a woman has an abortion?
Is God's will accomplished when a pedophile molests a 4 year old?

I'd like a yes or no answer to that please.

Since God allows things to happen, that is your proof that He
ALSO let's people reject His wonderful Salvation to do what
they want to do instead -
becuz in order for God to have people who TRULY love Him for
who He is and love righteousness (which is the whole point of His plan
in restoring His creation back to its intended state),
He HAS to let them freely love Him or not love Him.

Then those who love His laws & righteousness will enjoy living
in His newly restored world and worship Him for all He has done.

And here's another twist for you if you hadn't have looked at
it this way, it was also God's will to cause Satan to test Job
and put him thru a living hell on earth; wiping out his family...
God willed that Satan be given power to do that to His
servant!

Did you ever stop to think that God wills that we suffer because
He has a purpose we don't know about?
God hardened Pharaoh's heart by His own will -

 

[PT Calvinist]

Is this off some religious joke website?

No this is actually a very serious illustration

 

[PT Calvinist]

LOL @ Reformed preaching Arminianism in order to scapegoat the CF Reformed Crew's favorite target (since they can't get at the Catholics).

So true.

 

[CaDan]

1.) Mormons have alwaysed believed that

2.) No I don't think Universalists say it's ok to do drugs and fornicate. I do believe that any non-christian would take it that way though.

Umm. Non-Christians don't believe in Hell. How is your doctrine supposed to make them feel fear if they don't believe it in the first place?

Y'know what I see? I see a lot of folks in this thread who are dreadfully afraid they might get ripped off. If there is universal reconciliation, it just isn't fair that other people got to "do drugs and fornicate" and they didn't.

If the core of Christianity is to live in fear of Hell, if it is to be careful every day to always do the right thing and not sin, then what's the point? That just reduces Christianity to nothing more than another discipline and punish regimen. It makes the Faith nothing special, nothing unique. It makes the Gospel nothing but bad news--news that the God of the Christians is no different than any other petty tribal deity demanding ascetic obedience to arcane precepts in this life in order to be assured of a glorious and wonderful afterlife.

 

[Nadiine]

That's some "wisdom of men" right there, it is. You are reduced to theological constructs to support the position you want to hold.

Then explain why God's will is that a pedophile
not molest a child, yet pedophiles molest children on a
daily basis. (ie. SIN).

I'm shocked to even read such a criticism when we have these
facts before us as if drawing logical conclusions to biblical
facts is now somehow wrong and makes it false. LOL

The whole point is that God's will is superior to ours and that
He doesn't abide by our logic or reasoning for His plans &
purposes.

And I'd certainly take my "theological construct" over reading in
a false doctrine where it doesn't even fit the context,
directly refutes other verses we have, and limits God to
fitting man's constraints due to his ideal of "love" (imposed
onto God).

The side with the real problem is Universalism.

obviously.

 

[red77]

Again, God desires that we not sin either - yet we sin,
so I ask you again,
Is God's will accomplished when a woman has an abortion?
Is God's will accomplished when a pedophile molests a 4 year old?

I'd like a yes or no answer to that please.

Since God allows things to happen, that is your proof that He
ALSO let's people reject His wonderful Salvation to do what
they want to do instead -
becuz in order for God to have people who TRULY love Him for
who He is and love righteousness (which is the whole point of His plan
in restoring His creation back to its intended state),
He HAS to let them freely love Him or not love Him.

Then those who love His laws & righteousness will enjoy living
in His newly restored world and worship Him for all He has done.

And here's another twist for you if you hadn't have looked at
it this way, it was also God's will to cause Satan to test Job
and put him thru a living hell on earth; wiping out his family...
God willed that Satan be given power to do that to His
servant!

Did you ever stop to think that God wills that we suffer because
He has a purpose we don't know about?
God hardened Pharaoh's heart by His own will -

I've just answered this above.

Here's one in return. Do you think that anyone faced with incontrovertible truth would choose to reject God?
Do you think everyone who doesn't believe or have doubts do so to be wilfully rebellious?

I know about Job. He was tested beyond what most people could endure I'm sure. I don't argue that suffering in itself can't have purpose either. Eternal hell is an altogether separate thing.

 

[PT Calvinist]

Umm. Non-Christians don't believe in Hell. How is your doctrine supposed to make them feel fear if they don't believe it in the first place?

Y'know what I see? I see a lot of folks in this thread who are dreadfully afraid they might get ripped off. If there is universal reconciliation, it just isn't fair that other people got to "do drugs and fornicate" and they didn't.

If the core of Christianity is to live in fear of Hell, if it is to be careful every day to always do the right thing and not sin, then what's the point? That just reduces Christianity to nothing more than another discipline and punish regimen. It makes the Faith nothing special, nothing unique. It makes the Gospel nothing but bad news--news that the God of the Christians is no different than any other petty tribal deity demanding ascetic obedience to arcane precepts in this life in order to be assured of a glorious and wonderful afterlife.

right. I shoulda said those who believe in a hell. mostly new christians would get jipped

 

[Nadiine]

Umm. Non-Christians don't believe in Hell. How is your doctrine supposed to make them feel fear if they don't believe it in the first place?

How can you even say that!
So ALL nonChristians reject that hell is real?

I've seen & heard MANY of them that agree hell is real, and they
HOPE it's real for those 'evil people' they want to pay for the
things they've done to people....

Your post is off base due to this faulty premise

 

[CaDan]

Then explain why God's will is that a pedophile
not molest a child, yet pedophiles molest children on a
daily basis. (ie. SIN).

Unscriptural according the Job and Ecclesiastes. Just sayin.'

I'm shocked to even such a criticism when we have these
facts before us.

I'm shocked, shocked! to find gambling here!

The whole point is that God's will is superior to ours and that
He doesn't abide by our logic or reasoning for His plans &
purposes.

Which, of course, you schematize into the theological construct of "Permissive Will" and such.

And I'd certainly take my "theological construct" to reading in
a false doctrine where it doesn't even fit the context,
directly refutes other verses we have, and limits God to
fitting man's constraints due to his ideal of "love" (imposed
onto God).

The ones with the real problems in this thread are Universalists.

obviously.

*shnort*

See, you assume consequent right there. Generally not good logic, but hey! logic is that pesky "wisdom of men" amirite?

As I have said for several years on this site--often in discussion with you--I am indifferent on the issue of universal reconciliation. I can find support for it in the Scriptures and I can find opposition to it in the same Scriptures. What I will not tolerate is the repeated assertion by those opposed that there is no support at all.