Unconditional Election

[A Brother In Christ]

Really? Every last person on the face of the whole earth after 33 AD has head of Jesus Christ and knows the way of salvation? Even the Native Americans of 34 AD? The Chinese? The Pacifc Islanders? The Aztec and Maya?

Renton, At least get your facts straight, and quit making stuff up. Yours is a blatantly false statement.

the reason for matt 28:19
yet we as a church fails to do this

example New Gu.... New Tribes Missions

Yet in seven years the 144,000 evanglise the whole world..... Matt 24:14, reason for 1 cor 14:39 renewed

 

[nobdysfool]

The reasoning falls apart for the Arminian and non-Calvinist, because they try to make a case that God desires the salvation of all men without exception, as though all were still living. That the majority of men who lived do not live now, is a fact they try to ignore. When that fact is plugged into their beliefs, they collapse from the illogic of such a notion.

 

[Renton405]

The reasoning falls apart for the Arminian and non-Calvinist, because they try to make a case that God desires the salvation of all men without exception, as though all were still living. That the majority of men who lived do not live now, is a fact they try to ignore. When that fact is plugged into their beliefs, they collapse from the illogic of such a notion.

All men already had a chance on earth to chose Christ when they were alive..

 

[Renton405]

Since when does Reformed theology de-emphasize the cross? The whole thing came about with Luthers re-discovery of justification by faith alone.

Mike

Well the bible is very clear on Faith Alone(James).. So Martin Luther dosen't believe the word of God

One of the Solas- Faith Alone

But the Bible Says:


"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone," (James 2:24) and " . . . so also faith without works is dead," (James 2:26).

This is about as clear as the bible can get. Just on this verse alone should we not even consider Luther..Why would he even create this doctrine when the bible is just so clear on this? Oh wait, he was gonna get rid of the book of James

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. - Revelation 20:12

Now if we are judged according to our works(one work being our faith) how can we be predestined when works suggest the present and future tense when someone is alive. And please lets debate it instead of just saying its another strawman. ..There are verses that talk about salvation in the present and future tense so how do you get around them??

 

[Epiphoskei]

This is about as clear as the bible can get. Just on this verse alone should we not even consider Luther..Why would he even create this doctrine when the bible is just so clear on this? Oh wait, he was gonna get rid of the book of James

And from Romans I can say why we should not even consider trent. It comes down to, as UphillBattle pointed out a while ago:
"Grace alone"
"Grace plus works"
"That's heresy"
"James says so"
"James says no such thing. Look at romans"
"Romans says no such thing. Holy tradition says so"
"Holy tradition is made up doctrine by men"
(cursing ensues. words like schismatic and Babylon thrown around a lot)
-thread closed-

So can we perhaps not go down that road and realize that we're not going to agree on what the Bible means by Justification by (fill in the blank)?

And no, James was in Luther's Bible. Though agreed, he didn't think highly of it.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

Well the bible is very clear on Faith Alone(James).. So Martin Luther dosen't believe the word of God

One of the Solas- Faith Alone

But the Bible Says:


"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone," (James 2:24) and " . . . so also faith without works is dead," (James 2:26).

This is about as clear as the bible can get. Just on this verse alone should we not even consider Luther..Why would he even create this doctrine when the bible is just so clear on this? Oh wait, he was gonna get rid of the book of James

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. - Revelation 20:12

Now if we are judged according to our works(one work being our faith) how can we be predestined when works suggest the present and future tense when someone is alive. And please lets debate it instead of just saying its another strawman. ..There are verses that talk about salvation in the present and future tense so how do you get around them??

2 cor 11:13-15
matt 7:21-23

these guys had works but no faith

 

[StephanStrategy]

Well the bible is very clear on Faith Alone(James).. So Martin Luther dosen't believe the word of God

One of the Solas- Faith Alone

But the Bible Says:


"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone," (James 2:24) and " . . . so also faith without works is dead," (James 2:26).

This is about as clear as the bible can get. Just on this verse alone should we not even consider Luther..Why would he even create this doctrine when the bible is just so clear on this? Oh wait, he was gonna get rid of the book of James

And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. - Revelation 20:12

Now if we are judged according to our works(one work being our faith) how can we be predestined when works suggest the present and future tense when someone is alive. And please lets debate it instead of just saying its another strawman. ..There are verses that talk about salvation in the present and future tense so how do you get around them??

So Paul, Habakuk, and consequently God lied when they said that the just by faith shall live?

Interesting. And since our works are complete rubbish to God, I guess we are all doomed and still dead in our sins.

Perhaps the Bible is saying that we place our faith in Christ and it is His work, since it is perfect, that saves us. It was this that Luther picked up on. We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, as revealed to us in Scripture alone, for God's glory alone.

It seems to me that James was saying what kind of faith can you have if it does not manifest works. I guess you are willing to leave out the prophets, Paul and the gospels to make this point.

That is how it is coming across to me. Maybe that is not what you meant but that is how it reads.

Mike

 

[nobdysfool]

All men already had a chance on earth to chose Christ when they were alive..

Oh really? Even those whio lived on the other side of the world from Israel? The Native Americans? The Aztecs? The Inca? The Mayans? The South Pacific Islanders? The Australian Aborigines? The Alaskan Inuit? They all had the chance to choose Christ, even though they never heard of Him?

Renton, stop this ridiculous line of thought. It is obvious you have no clue as to what you're claiming.

 

[cygnusx1]

All men already had a chance on earth to chose Christ when they were alive..

scripture please !!!

 

[Jipsah]

All men already had a chance on earth to chose Christ when they were alive..

Even those who never heard of Him.

 

[nobdysfool]

Is that the furious rustle of pages turning I hear in the background? Along with mutterings of frustration?

Renton must be having trouble finding proof for his allegation....

 

[beloved57]

Unconditional Election is a truth of the gospel that must be believed to prove ones salvation...

 

[cygnusx1]

Unconditional Election is a truth of the gospel that must be believed to prove ones salvation...

scripture please

 

[A Brother In Christ]

not true... yet it show maturity

 

[beloved57]

scripture please

You got to be kidding me ? unconditional election describes who christ died for. 1 cor 15: 1-4

Christ died for our sins = The elect, the called, Gods people. In acts 18 , when God sent paul to evangelize corinth , it was in order to call out a chosen people.

acts 18:


8And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
9Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace: 10For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people( election of grace} in this city.

So paul obviously preached in his gospel to the corithians that christ died for our sins as the election of grace.

In acts 20 paul says that he preached the gospel of the Grace of God vs

24But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

The gospel of the grace of God has as its theme, election of grace:

rom 11: 5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

So to deny that paul preached in his gospel unconditional election is to deny scripture and deny that paul preached sovereign discriminate grace in the gospel..

 

[beloved57]

not true... yet it show maturity

Nope, its part of the counsel of the true gospel !

acts 20


24But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
25And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
26Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. 27For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

 

[nobdysfool]

You got to be kidding me ? unconditional election describes who christ died for. 1 cor 15: 1-4

Christ died for our sins = The elect, the called, Gods people. In acts 18 , when God sent paul to evangelize corinth , it was in order to call out a chosen people.

acts 18:


8And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
9Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace: 10For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people( election of grace} in this city.

So paul obviously preached in his gospel to the corithians that christ died for our sins as the election of grace.

In acts 20 paul says that he preached the gospel of the Grace of God vs

24But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

The gospel of the grace of God has as its theme, election of grace:

rom 11: 5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

So to deny that paul preached in his gospel unconditional election is to deny scripture and deny that paul preached sovereign discriminate grace in the gospel..

Yet our salvation is not based on knowing correct doctrine, it is based on faith in Christ and His atoning work on your behalf. Correct doctrine comes later.

 

[beloved57]

Yet our salvation is not based on knowing correct doctrine, it is based on faith in Christ and His atoning work on your behalf. Correct doctrine comes later.

Paul preached unditional election in His gospel..

There is no gospel of christ without preaching sovereign discriminating unconditional election.....so if you believed a gospel initially that did not proclaim that truth, you believed a lie and except you repent and believe the true gospel, you show you are still in your sins..

 

[nobdysfool]

Paul preached unditional election in His gospel..

There is no gospel of christ without preaching sovereign discriminating unconditional election.....so if you believed a gospel initially that did not proclaim that truth, you believed a lie and except you repent and believe the true gospel, you show you are still in your sins..

And yet, Paul never used those words, did he? Yes, I agree that he taught the essence of unconditional election. But you go too far in insisting that one MUST believe that doctrine in order to receive Christ and be saved. Sophisticated doctrinal understanding is not a requirement to be saved, any more than understanding Quantum Physics or String Theory is a prerequisite to being physically born.

 

[beloved57]

Paul preached unditional election in His gospel..

There is no gospel of christ without preaching sovereign discriminating unconditional election.....so if you believed a gospel initially that did not proclaim that truth, you believed a lie and except you repent and believe the true gospel, you show you are still in your sins..

it is based on faith in Christ and His atoning work on your behalf. Correct doctrine comes later.

Another lie from satan. Salvation is based on the work of christ for his people, which is based upon the sovereign eternal purpose of God 2 tim 1

8Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Faith in christ is the fruit of salvation not the basis of salvation, that is a lie from satan...