Trying to understand . . .Salvation.

[Light of the East]

Salvation. Free gift or do we earn it?

I am posting this not to create discussion or argument. Rather, I am trying to understand the conflict I have between what I read in the Bible and what the Fathers and saints of the Church teach. I am posting this because I am open to correction, and I want to be properly Orthodox in my thinking. Please do critique, correct, and give me any information or links you have which will help me understand.

If you read this and all you feel you can do is call me a heretic or make pejorative comments, please refrain. I am looking to be educated and catechized. I am confused and I need help in getting my thinking correct.

[Link Removed]

 

[Terri Dactyl]

Salvation cannot be earned. That is why Jesus died for us. His blood covers us. When we accept Jesus as our Saviour, The Bible says we are justified through Christ. Heres the thing. -->We become a new creature in Christ, and want to do His will.<-- That is the part you are confusing with earning. The Holy spirit through Jesus teaches us the right way. If He did not do that, and we are not a changed person at all, then we probably didn't ask Christ to save us. How you can tell is if you want to do His will. Ask the Lord to save do, and His will shall be show to you.

 

[Light of the East]

Salvation cannot be earned. That is why Jesus died for us. His blood covers us. When we accept Jesus as our Saviour, The Bible says we are justified through Christ. Heres the thing. -->We become a new creature in Christ, and want to do His will.<-- That is the part you are confusing with earning. The Holy spirit through Jesus teaches us the right way. If He did not do that, and we are not a changed person at all, then we probably didn't ask Christ to save us. How you can tell is if you want to do His will. Ask the Lord to save do, and His will shall be show to you.

Thank you for replying, but this is an ORTHODOX SITE and I am looking specifically for answers which fall within the Orthodox faith.

 

[HTacianas]

Salvation. Free gift or do we earn it?

I am posting this not to create discussion or argument. Rather, I am trying to understand the conflict I have between what I read in the Bible and what the Fathers and saints of the Church teach. I am posting this because I am open to correction, and I want to be properly Orthodox in my thinking. Please do critique, correct, and give me any information or links you have which will help me understand.

If you read this and all you feel you can do is call me a heretic or make pejorative comments, please refrain. I am looking to be educated and catechized. I am confused and I need help in getting my thinking correct.

The Old-Fashioned Way . . .

As an Orthodox Christian, what I am about to do is theological treason. I am about to ask questions about the Orthodox faith and how it is practiced. This is not allowed. Orthodox Christians are ex…

http4281.com

This guy is a bit confused. To begin at the end, he asks what is the free gift? I can answer that by saying that the free gift is absolute forgiveness of all sins committed prior to baptism. It is an unmerited favor freely given by God. No one can earn that gift, "it is not of works that no man can boast". It is not a reward for anything one may have done previously. That has been the teaching of Christianity from the beginning:

Rom 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,

Once a person is baptized all of their previous sins are removed, and they become a "new creation". What they do as that new creation is up to them:

Heb 10:36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

You receive the promise after you have done the will of God.

As to Toll Houses, Toll Houses are not a teaching of the Church. It is an idea that can be found within the Church but it is not a teaching of the Church.

 

[Terri Dactyl]

Thank you for replying, but this is an ORTHODOX SITE and I am looking specifically for answers which fall within the Orthodox faith.

Sorry. I didn't realize--gotta ask though.Is what I said not part of the orthodox teachings?

 

[ArmyMatt]

I don’t think you are open to correction. you still refuse to see hell the way the Orthodox do, and just attack the Western, post-Schism inspired caricature you make up.

the fact that the article ends asking what we don’t get about “free gift” just shows you refuse to listen to what has been said on here. plus, all of the edgy, hyperbolic language looks like you are not looking to learn.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Sorry. I didn't realize--gotta ask though.Is what I said not part of the orthodox teachings?

nothing per se, it depends on understanding. the point of this part of the forum is to get answers from the Orthodox.

 

[Terri Dactyl]

thanks!

 

[ArmyMatt]

no problem! it’s to prevent inquiry from descending to chaos. feel free to ask us anything!

 

[Light of the East]

I don’t think you are open to correction. you still refuse to see hell the way the Orthodox do, and just attack the Western, post-Schism inspired caricature you make up.

the fact that the article ends asking what we don’t get about “free gift” just shows you refuse to listen to what has been said on here. plus, all of the edgy, hyperbolic language looks like you are not looking to learn.

In other words, what you are saying is that I am still very Protestant in my thinking. Yes, I get that, and that is exactly the problem. I understand that the Church is to be obeyed for the safety of my soul. I am trying to resolve what appear to be two distinctly different points of view which exist in my mind.

Hell is the sinner in the presence of God. That is the Orthodox view and that is what I believe also.

I don't understand how salvation can be seen as a free gift when it depends on our working for it. Please tell me how I am wrong in making a distinction in the article between free salvation and the rewards which come with that salvation, the promises/warnings that we will be rewarded according to our deeds. It seems to me that salvation and rewards have been conflated into a single thing if salvation is dependent upon our performance here in order to achieve salvation.

I wrote this asking to be corrected. You assume that you know my mind, which I find troubling. I could have just not said anything and went on my merry way, opposing the Church. That is not the goal of my life, nor is it particularly a safe place to be spiritually. If you don't want to work with me, just say so and I'll see if I can find other sources of information.

I thank you for your prayers for me.

 

[Soyeong]

Salvation. Free gift or do we earn it?

I am posting this not to create discussion or argument. Rather, I am trying to understand the conflict I have between what I read in the Bible and what the Fathers and saints of the Church teach. I am posting this because I am open to correction, and I want to be properly Orthodox in my thinking. Please do critique, correct, and give me any information or links you have which will help me understand.

If you read this and all you feel you can do is call me a heretic or make pejorative comments, please refrain. I am looking to be educated and catechized. I am confused and I need help in getting my thinking correct.

The Old-Fashioned Way . . .

As an Orthodox Christian, what I am about to do is theological treason. I am about to ask questions about the Orthodox faith and how it is practiced. This is not allowed. Orthodox Christians are ex…

http4281.com

There is a huge difference between these two positions:

1.) Our salvation requires us to choose to do works.

2.) We are required to have first done works in order to earn our salvation as the result.

There are many verses that support #1, such as in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from because he never knew them, in Romans 2:13, only doers of the law will be justified, in Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey him, and there are many verses that deny #2, such as Ephesians 2:8-9, Galatians 2:21, and Romans 4:1-5. So there must be a reason why our salvation requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are justified also upholds God's law (Romans 3:28-31).

The content of a gift can itself be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that works contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to drive it as a wage. The content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3) and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23). Our obedience to God is about Him giving the gift of salvation to us not about us earning our salvation as a wage from God.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I wrote this asking to be corrected. You assume that you know my mind, which I find troubling.

I don’t know your mind, but I do know your history. this is the same MO I have read from you before. you can only ask for correction so often, refuse it, and then ask again without it looking like you aren’t really looking for correction. the snarky, know-it-all tone of the article also just looks bad.

I don't understand how salvation can be seen as a free gift when it depends on our working for it. Please tell me how I am wrong in making a distinction in the article between free salvation and the rewards which come with that salvation, the promises/warnings that we will be rewarded according to our deeds. It seems to me that salvation and rewards have been conflated into a single thing if salvation is dependent upon our performance here in order to achieve salvation.

and again, hopefully for the last time:

salvation is a free gift since Christ has risen and no one will remain in the grave.

however, since we are fallen we must work to prepare to receive that gift when it comes for us.

salvation isn’t dependent on what we do. however, how we experience the gift is.

 

[ArmyMatt]

There is a huge difference between these two positions:

1.) Our salvation requires us to choose to do works.

2.) We are required to have first done works in order to earn our salvation as the result.

There are many verses that support #1, such as in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from because he never knew them, in Romans 2:13, only doers of the law will be justified, in Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey him, and there are many verses that deny #2, such as Ephesians 2:8-9, Galatians 2:21, and Romans 4:1-5. So there must be a reason why our salvation requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are justified also upholds God's law (Romans 3:28-31).

The content of a gift can itself be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that works contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to drive it as a wage. The content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3) and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23). Our obedience to God is about Him giving the gift of salvation to us not about us earning our salvation as a wage from God.

he asked the Orthodox POV, and St Basil’s has rules. please follow them.

 

[Soyeong]

he asked the Orthodox POV, and St Basil’s has rules. please follow them.

Did I say anything that was contrary to the Orthodox POV?

 

[Light of the East]

I don’t know your mind, but I do know your history. this is the same MO I have read from you before. you can only ask for correction so often, refuse it, and then ask again without it looking like you aren’t really looking for correction. the snarky, know-it-all tone of the article also just looks bad.


and again, hopefully for the last time:

salvation is a free gift since Christ has risen and no one will remain in the grave.

however, since we are fallen we must work to prepare to receive that gift when it comes for us.

salvation isn’t dependent on what we do. however, how we experience the gift is.

Ah ha! That's the answer!

The gift is indeed free, but how we deal with it and how we ultimately experience it depends on what we do with it.

Okay. I left the posts up only long enough to get some answers. They have been taken down from my site and put in the trash can.

The reason I sound "snarky" is because I don't find this very comforting. I don't find it comforting because my life is a wretched mess and no matter how much I pray, fast, and tell the Lord how messed up I am and an utter failure, I find myself constantly failing. There is a passage in the Orthodox Prayer Book that rather well describes this. It speaks of confessing and within an hour, doing the same thing over again.

Therefore, I fear in my heart that my experience of this gift is not going to be terribly pleasant in the next life. I wonder if priests (Fr. ?) get tired of hearing the same sins confessed by the same wretch who cannot get his life together to save his life?

And for me, if how we experience the gift is dependent upon what we do with it in this life, then the really truly wise men and women are those who opt for the monastery and the struggle within.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Did I say anything that was contrary to the Orthodox POV?

St Basil’s is where Orthodox answer questions that are asked

 

[ArmyMatt]

The reason I sound "snarky" is because I don't find this very comforting. I don't find it comforting because my life is a wretched mess and no matter how much I pray, fast, and tell the Lord how messed up I am and an utter failure, I find myself constantly failing. There is a passage in the Orthodox Prayer Book that rather well describes this. It speaks of confessing and within an hour, doing the same thing over again.

you might not like it, but that’s irrelevant if it‘s true. and you gotta take the theology in total, not just zero in on certain parts.

 

[Malleeboy]

Can I ask a question by using examples...

Person is on a sinking ship.
Rescue helicopter comes to rescue person.

Various option

1) Person is scooped up by a net, and immobilized and carried to rescue. They do absolutely nothing.
2) Rescuer lowers safety cradle. person climbs in, all the have to do is lie in the cradle to be saved. as long as they don't choose to leave the cradle they will be saved.
3) Rescuer lowers rope, person has to continue to hold the rope to be saved.
4) Rescuer lowers rope, and encourages the person to climb the rope, climbing the rope increases chances of being saved by decreasing the chance of you letting go of the rope.

Of course the problem with this is that it still somewhat using the Protestant/western paradigm of separating justification and sanctification.
However how far would option 4 be from an Orthodox view?

 

[ArmyMatt]

we’re really closer to number 2, methinks.

 

[Bones49]

There is a huge difference between these two positions:

1.) Our salvation requires us to choose to do works.

2.) We are required to have first done works in order to earn our salvation as the result.

There are many verses that support #1, such as in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from because he never knew them, in Romans 2:13, only doers of the law will be justified, in Hebrews 5:9, Jesus has become a source of eternal salvation for those who obey him, and there are many verses that deny #2, such as Ephesians 2:8-9, Galatians 2:21, and Romans 4:1-5. So there must be a reason why our salvation requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are justified also upholds God's law (Romans 3:28-31).

The content of a gift can itself be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that works contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to drive it as a wage. The content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus (John 17:3) and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23). Our obedience to God is about Him giving the gift of salvation to us not about us earning our salvation as a wage from God.

Is this a fair view of orthodox teaching?

I’m not orthodox, but is exactly what I believe. Salvation is a free gift apart from works, however in response to Gods gift and through the power of the Holy Spirit we are compelled to see that good works are the right thing to do. (Sorry actually I think that might not be a good way to it it)