Discussion Truth is Truth

[Farine]

Perverse (adj)

One definition has an underlying meaning of "corrupt" --turned away from what is right or good
the other meaning of "wrong-headed" -- obstinate in opposing what is right, reasonable, or accepted

Mankind in its fallen nature is perverse. I'm aware of the enthusiasm to respond to the deceivers, fools, poorly prepared and the ill-equipped speakers. For that goal, one must have discernment.

From the five stories provided so far-- Job, Stephen, Moses, Elijah and Micaiah-- there are certain constants that can help one distinguish the true servant from the poser.

Remember, unhelped, basic humanity is perverse. It will always prefer the corrupted,wrong-headed teacher to the true teacher. Mankind also has a flocking instinct. Going with the majority view, will nearly always get one into trouble in this endeavor. There's no helping it. One must do the work of seeking God's wisdom out as an individual person and be willing to separate from the majority position.

In the last example, a King going to war, risking citizens and much capital wanted to know the battle's outcome before ever setting foot on the field. No one but God knows the future. That's true then as now. The enemy does not know the outcomes of every choice, or he would not have put Jesus to death on the cross. So as unpopular and disliked as he was, Micaiah was sought because it was known he was God's man.

Elijah's proof of God's commission came with the certainty that only God has control over creation. This was true of Moses' standing before God as well. In Moses' case, the dust becoming lice was the first plague that the magicians could not duplicate. Only God creates life. Only God can control rain.

Stephen's wisdom that his opponents could not withstand is something most of us should be familiar with. The Holy Spirit providing the Divine Intellect and Understanding takes many forms. I've had experiences with the "Word of Knowledge' that my listener knew I personally had no way of knowing to help build the case for trust. Whatever Stephen said to his opponents, it should have won them over. It is the level of perversity that propelled them from ought-to-be allies to enemies. They hated him all the more because he was right.

Job's life was his testimony. Not just the abundance of his blessings and the excellency of his affairs. The whole thing taken together was a symphony of invitation for others to be as he was. Fellowship-how God deeply desires this-- when all creation is in some kind of relationship with itself and other things and communicates even on the level of bacteria-you know God wants to talk. God and Job had this amazing relationship even though sin was in the world. Job was in the habit of dealing with unintentional sin (through sacrifice to God) just so that his friendship with God could go on without much interruption.

We have to be better at discerning who is and who is not of God.

 

[Farine]

The account of Elijah's confrontation began with three years of drought and famine. The human response was to blame Elijah. WHY would a person pray earnestly that it wouldn't rain? What about the beasts that mutely suffer? What about the children?

Jesus gives us insight on that. Matthew 24: 28 (NIV)
Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

Matthew 24:28 (KJV)
For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

From "The Words of The Lord Jesus". Volume 3. By Dr. Rudolf STier.. page 275
"There can, in general, be no doubt that what is here spoken of under the figure of the eagles gathered around the carcass, is the judicial punishment which connects itself with the advent of Christ (and which,even in the first coming, is what chiefly makes it visible). For our Lord uses this particular figure not as a proverb in general, but as a biblical and still more as a prophetical proverb; and He therefore gives thereby a sign arising from the coincidence with earlier prophecies...
From Job 9: 26 As an eagle flies to the prey..where a carcass is, there is he..
by a wondrous instinct he can scent and descry it from afar...
From Hosea 8 alludes to the same figure..
Habakkkuk 1:8 thus designates chiefly the Chaldeans. It follows therefore that Christ now points back to that first judgement on Jerusalem...

"continued... He will thereby say that God's fundamental principle in all judgements remains the same, in so far as a corruption has grown to maturity draws down punishment, not merely according to perfect justice, but also by a necessity inherent in the thing itself; quite NATURALLY, so to speak, just as the eagles are made for and find out the carcass. That which is dead grows putrid; and what is putrid is consumed and cleared away to make pure air, by those agents which are made and appointed to that end by God. The putrid-state carcass, and the dead, corrupting national condition of Israel, was, at that time, the carcass around the which the eagles could not but be gathered; even so will it one day with Christendom, when CHrist comes the second time..."Page 276 Copywritten 1888 in Austria

Elijah was not the disturber of Israel.

 

[Farine]

If you accept the Bible account of reality (and I realize that there are many who don't), there are only two categories of people at the end of History. The parable of the weeds in Matthew 13:24-30 displays people at the end of time as either 'wheat' or 'weeds'.. (or tares in the King James Version).

If God uses you to address their 'weedy' lives, Dear Reader, let me cut to the chase. Life gets messy. You don't even have to be outspoken about it. Just live according to a higher standard. Just be peaceful and loving in front of them. Ask to pray over something at the 'wrong' time. YEAH, You know. If you've been alive for more than decade, someone has raised their voice or excused you out of an opportunity because you follow Jesus. That's why you're reading this.

While we're on the subject, let's discuss the spirit of the times we are living in. Don't think that the current mindset of resistance is going to ease up. Oh, no.. no.. it's not going to do that. And why is that? I could just give you my opinion. What good is that? We all have a measure of faith and we all have a measure of wisdom.

You may feel unqualified to participate. Your Father-God-Coach has blocked any recourse to be a spectator. Hello. Here we are. The next days offerings are the tools of the mature Christian to respond (and WIN) in this contest knowing the Battle belongs to The Lord.

 

[Freedom Now]

If you accept the Bible account of reality (and I realize that there are many who don't), there are only two categories of people at the end of History. The parable of the weeds in Matthew 13:24-30 displays people at the end of time as either 'wheat' or 'weeds'.. (or tares in the King James Version).

According to the bible, there could be 3 categories of people at the end of history,

the HOT, the Cold, and the LUKEWARM........Revelation 3, 15-16 (any version)

 

[Farine]

According to the bible, there could be 3 categories of people at the end of history,

the HOT, the Cold, and the LUKEWARM........Revelation 3, 15-16 (any version)

Hello Freedom! I'm encouraged to see you post again. What did you think of the response to Bible Greats like Job, Moses, Elijah?

Francis Chan wrote a book called "Crazy Love", which our church went through in private reading as well as an attached Bible Study. In that book, Francis Chan directly took on this topic to great effect. The best visual of a Luke Warm Person is here:

 

[unfinishedclay]

"continued... He will thereby say that God's fundamental principle in all judgements remains the same, in so far as a corruption has grown to maturity draws down punishment, not merely according to perfect justice, but also by a necessity inherent in the thing itself; quite NATURALLY, so to speak, just as the eagles are made for and find out the carcass. That which is dead grows putrid; and what is putrid is consumed and cleared away to make pure air, by those agents which are made and appointed to that end by God. The putrid-state carcass, and the dead, corrupting national condition of Israel, was, at that time, the carcass around the which the eagles could not but be gathered; even so will it one day with Christendom, when CHrist comes the second time..."

So, the eagle gathering to the carcase = God's judgment drawing to punish corruption?

 

[unfinishedclay]

If God uses you to address their 'weedy' lives, Dear Reader, let me cut to the chase. Life gets messy. You don't even have to be outspoken about it. Just live according to a higher standard. Just be peaceful and loving in front of them. Ask to pray over something at the 'wrong' time. YEAH, You know. If you've been alive for more than decade, someone has raised their voice or excused you out of an opportunity because you follow Jesus. That's why you're reading this.

Yes. Amen. I can reflect on times that were exactly as you're saying.

 

[unfinishedclay]

Hello Freedom! I'm encouraged to see you post again. What did you think of the response to Bible Greats like Job, Moses, Elijah?

Francis Chan wrote a book called "Crazy Love", which our church went through in private reading as well as an attached Bible Study. In that book, Francis Chan directly took on this topic to great effect. The best visual of a Luke Warm Person is here:

Oh my goodness! That's why I like listening to Francis Chan and I had not heard that message. I don't listen to a lot of his messages. But I plan to start.

So, then before you placed up his video, I guess I wanted to say that I can see there are only 2 categories: the wheat and the tares (weeds). But to address Freedom's really good point (because it is excellent point), I still see that of hot, cold, and lukewarm, Jesus would just rather the two categories of hot or cold. Lukewarm will get spued from His mouth He said. So, that eliminates the category of Lukewarm. (But lukewarm is what so many of our fellow Christians are.)

When the message of being hot, cold, or lukewarm used to get preached to me in '88/'89 right before I surrendered my life to Christ, I did used to struggle with, "Where can I fit in? I do believe in God and that Jesus really did die on the cross (believing with my head like the demons who tremble; and not with my heart to believe to the point of righteousness/Romans 10:10 and actually be a child of God/John 1:12). But I want to live my life normal, too. 'Normal'." I was a college student and saw myself at a prime in my life. There was too much to give up to realize I had to give up my very own self. MYSELF. It was a scary thought.

Lukewarm felt so comfortable to me and at the same time, if unchallenged by sound doctrine, I felt I could be proud of my church attendance and good deeds without having to deny myself. I could be proud of myself for shunning things other college students gravitated to. I didn't want to see myself as a wretch undone who needed my Savior - fully. And if I was forced to see myself as a wretch, I wanted His grace not to cleanse me and not to reveal to me how His grace could change me, I wanted to rely on that grace to utilize sin at my disposal.

So, to find out that I couldn't even fit into a category where Jesus would prefer (of course, His will being that I be hot for Him), I couldn't wrap my mind around Him spuing me in my lukewarmness from His mouth. And that is a challenge to explain to lukewarm people. The wisdom of the Lord only can allow us to really explain it. When it was explained to me, it had me pondering for months before I surrendered my life to Him.

I said a lot. But that's what I pulled from both your explanations of the categories. For me, eye opening for a number of reasons. And of course, still need to learn more of it - which you've explained to me earlier, helping me out greatly.

 

[Farine]

So, the eagle gathering to the carcase = God's judgment drawing to punish corruption?

Hello Unfinished.. Let me offer a slight tweak to what you're summarizing. That the eagles gathering to the carcase is the built in Divine response (Punishment PLUS Correction). God's responses are effective to addressing the behavior that was creating the corruption. Example would be the Babylonian exile. The Land had not been allowed to be unworked and fallow at its designated periods. God took the people away into exile So, they could no longer work the land. The seventy years that they were in Babylon, God said was the land having its Sabbath rests.

 

[Farine]

I want to live my life normal, too. 'Normal'." I was a college student and saw myself at a prime in my life. There was too much to give up to realize I had to give up my very own self. MYSELF. It was a scary thought.

"Normal"... "Too much to give up..".... "Scary"..

Unfinished, you said a mouthful right there. This is a really good place to start talking about the Inheritance of the Saints. It's not just the yucky part of the exchange 'Old Lives for New". It's the exploration of a lot of Goodness in the New. Without a good look at the benefits of the Kingdom, what you just said is what people focus on. Guess what? They don't do it.



And.. most of us are literal-minded. Are you saying we get a shiny round thing? Um no. It's a metaphor. hahaha!

God prizes relationship. Above any gifts one receives is the GIVER. The best, biggest part of the Inheritance is our relationship with GOD. KNOWING HIM. Yes, yes, I am aware of His Transcendence--the gap, the tremendous gap between our level of being and His. He wants to be known to the extent that He can be known. Communication is something He invented and the many uses of language, signals, signs, intentions are all available to Him. I went through one time and listed over 14 different ways God communicated in the Bible.

God displays Himself as a Good Father. A good father speaks to his children. We have an expectation of communication as a result. Somehow, in some manner our Father communicates with us His love and His Will.

You can argue with me as you like, no hard feelings. I believe a good portion, the point of the exchange is to impart the proper equipment for communication. Thus if you hold back your 'self', the result is a refusal to the upgrade in your being that permits communication. You don't hear through your human senses. You perceive GOd in your spirit. Even when reading the Bible, in order for the printed words to impact your life, you have receive those words inwardly. Mental absorption does not produce anything. Data. You know stuff. Compared to BEING. You ARE NEW. Big difference.

 

[unfinishedclay]

God prizes relationship. Above any gifts one receives is the GIVER. The best, biggest part of the Inheritance is our relationship with GOD. KNOWING HIM.

Amen!!

 

[Farine]

There are three general groups of people when presented with generic information.

The first group is disinterested.. They have no need of the information and have little patience to hear or consider it.
The second group is interested--usually to pass this onto someone else who could use it. They sample it and then disengage.
The third group is committed. They have a problem this information solves. They will stay and listen to the whole matter and have a positive reaction to receiving this solution.

In talking about the 'Inheritance of the Saints', I suppose I have to make the case that this actually exists. And what problems does it solve? And who would be receiving it and under what circumstances?

You probably went to church today. There are the raw materials there for receiving this inheritance in any church that preaches Jesus Christ with the Bible. What usually stops people from inheriting 'spiritual riches' as Paul refers to them is the person, not the presentation. Which group of people are you in? Do you have challenges where you need a miracle from God?

I'm not likely to make much progress if you are content with your life, more or less. Normal leaves little room for Awe. The third group... You need a touch from the Lord. This is who is going to benefit as much as I like everybody else who is reading this.

God is everywhere, but most people don't react to that. They reserve the release of their faith for some special occasion. The touch of someone they consider 'anointed' or 'godly', group prayers said over them, being moved in their emotions by powerful preaching or worship, a particular conference or retreat setting, etc are examples of some of these special occasions. The manifest Presence of God focused in a specific location responds to faith. Someone has to believe God is there first. And there are those who go out into nature, moved by its beauty declare 'God is here".. and God responds to that by releasing His Power and Presence. Newsflash: If you have a place in your home where you regularly go to pray, that place becomes holy.

What am I saying? When you go into church, are you believing that your spirit is entering into the Heavenly spaces which the church is built to reflect? When you are walking around in your home, are you accepting that God is with you there? The releasing of your faith--from the heart (not a mental decision)- is the beginning of a conversation with the LORD.

Let me give you an example. I was six years old when someone in Sunday School told me that 'Prayer is conversation."
I knew what conversation meant. It was a two way dialogue. Happy in that knowledge, I went home and began to talk to God. Then I stopped to listen for His response. NOTHING. I tried again. NOTHING.

Here's the interesting thing. In my childish reasoning, I didn't think God WASN'T able to talk to me. I was sure He just didn't like me. I was extremely sad. For a week, I was crying every time I thought about it. And very soon after that, there was a dream at night where Jesus walked with me in a garden and explained that He usually didn't speak that way to people. (and that He liked me).

We can do this! We can move from a mental, informational place of possessing knowledge to a spiritual, passionate place of interacting with His Spirit.

 

[Freedom Now]

There are three general groups of people when presented with generic information.

The first group is disinterested.. They have no need of the information and have little patience to hear or consider it.
The second group is interested--usually to pass this onto someone else who could use it. They sample it and then disengage.
The third group is committed. They have a problem this information solves. They will stay and listen to the whole matter and have a positive reaction to receiving this solution.

You might actually say there are four general groups of people when presented with
generic information (seed sown)....

First group....
When one hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches
away what is sown in his heart......

Second group....
When one hears the word of the kingdom and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in
himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word,
he falls away.....

Third group...
When one hears the word of the kingdom, but the cares of the world and the delight in riches choke
the word and it proves unfruitful....

Fourth group...
When one hear the word of the kingdom and understands it, he indeed bears fruit, and yields in one
case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty....


You could also add a fifth group, those that do not want to even hear the word...


Which group do we belong to as believers?

Group 2?
We hear and receive, on fire for God, but when family and friends and other church members turn against us,
do we then compromise to not upset them......or.....?

Group 3?
We hear and receive, on fire for God, but become to busy "making a living" and wanting our own
house and cars and holidays, social life...and...and....barely have any time left for seeking the
kingdom of God and His righteousness.......so really not bearing any fruit....

Group 4?
We hear and receive, on fire for God, our life consists of nothing else but to do the will of God and
seeking His kingdom (His rule over us in every area of life, giving up the right to control our lives),
and His righteousness ( turning away from sin and live according to His standard)..
A life completely sacrificed to God to do His will....
Bearing a lot of fruit, bringing in a harvest of new believers....



I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch of mine that bears no fruit,
He takes away......


Strive to enter by the narrow door, for many I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able...


For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few...

 

[Farine]

You might actually say there are four general groups of people when presented with
generic information (seed sown)....

Strive to enter by the narrow door, for many I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able...


For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few...

Yes! Preach it! If you have time, write more. This is wonderful!

 

[unfinishedclay]

Group 2?
We hear and receive, on fire for God, but when family and friends and other church members turn against us,
do we then compromise to not upset them......or.....?

This has literally been temptation lately. And at church today, I received so much confirmation to press on. And I think this very discussion within this thread is another nudge to discern the vain babbling of caring family (gotta give it to them) for what it is - temptation to compromise. So, I'm just going to bypass this group and not fit myself into it in the Name of Jesus. LOL

 

[Farine]

This has literally been temptation lately. And at church today, I received so much confirmation to press on. And I think this very discussion within this thread is another nudge to discern the vain babbling of caring family (gotta give it to them) for what it is - temptation to compromise. So, I'm just going to bypass this group and not fit myself into it in the Name of Jesus. LOL

Alright! It's comforting to know this discussion is doing practical good--I pray the rest of the discussion is also blessed.

I was going to stop there for one post. A couple of after thoughts occurred.

11) Don't be surprised if God uses this situation as a teachable moment for family and friends who were surface-minded, not seeing that God intended to do exceedingly, above all we can ask or imagine.

2) Like in Judo or other martial arts where the opponents energy is used against them, God is able to take what is an attack and turn it around for our good. Spotting the point of energy transfer where that turn-around happened is very likely this passing of this temptation. I believe you are about to see the good coming out of the intended harm here.

 

[Farine]

Yesterday, the main point was that someone must believe God is present for the manifested Presence of God to be in a specific location. Yesterday, Freedom Now, added God has an expectation of produced good (fruit) and in order to produce fruit, one must continue in belief. The questions were asked to evaluate oneself which group does one belong to. This is a great kindness. If you arrive at the next life not respecting God's goals for this one, there is no remedy at that point. All of that happened yesterday.

If you are reading this today and want to talk about it, please do. To tie this all in with the original post, if you are living your life to please God, whether or not you talk about it, others will detect your higher standards through your conduct and be hostile. The groups that Freedom mentioned easily mingle in the churches. You can have hostile reactions even inside of church fellowship. The question about being received by others when being in the Truth, living the truth, speaking truth happens in everyday living.

 

[Farine]

In the place where God's Presence can be perceived, quite a few actions are happening. Some actions on God's side are:
1) Distribution of Gifts, Kingdom Roles (jobs), Kingdom Keys (Power)
2) Touching a person for healing
3) Either the Spirit or a human being on His Behalf communicates God's thoughts to you
4) Revelation or imparted knowledge (You know it in your knower),
5) Divine Comfort
6) Divine protection .. from evil spirits or human aggression
7) Revealing and restoring your Identity--who you are as His Child

There are some actions we take aware of His Nearness:
1) Worship
2) Speaking Truth --it's impossible to lie if you really understand He is Present.
3) Perceive Deceptions that were affecting us
4) Receive the gifts and blessings being offered
5) Forgive what before was impossible release
6) See ourselves accurately
7) Have a renewed love and passion for other people

 

[Freedom Now]

The groups that Freedom mentioned easily mingle in the churches.

Not quite.....

Groups 1-3 will easily mingle in churches (man made institutions) because they walk according
to the flesh...
Their churches are their social life. there will be friction among these 3 groups, for the sake of
"unity", they will compromise as they feel the need to belong somewhere...

Group 4 will not mingle as they are led by the Spirit of God and do HIS will....

Group 1-3 unknowingly or ignorantly will try to bring group 4 down to their level, so they are no
longer convicted by the Spirit in group 4.....

Those that are living in the flesh are hostile to those walking in the Spirit and will persecute them,
either to the point of compromise or showing them the door,
or group 4 leaves to follow God wherever HE might lead them.......


The flesh is hostile to God and will not mingle with the Spirit.......

 

[unfinishedclay]

Like in Judo or other martial arts where the opponents energy is used against them, God is able to take what is an attack and turn it around for our good. Spotting the point of energy transfer where that turn-around happened is very likely this passing of this temptation. I believe you are about to see the good coming out of the intended harm here.

Yes, I was praying that some eyes be opened. This discussion is helping all around and teaching me on some things to take in prayer.