Discussion Truth is Truth

[unfinishedclay]

Ok.. First of all, Freedom, I'm glad you're looking at this discussion. If you read the original post, it was talking about ...

"It should not matter which messenger God sends.

We have gathered truth together in various creeds and prayers. We do not gather each other. If someone has been given something true, something wise, something helpful, then why can't that person be received?"

The premise is that in times when an authenticated, reliable messenger goes to do the will of God, a lot of unpleasant responses can be received. The point of mentioning Job is just another example of a truly righteous person being persecuted.

I know this problem exists in the Body of Christ. You want to debate particulars about how I referenced Job's persecution.. fine.. I may be wrong slightly. I"m not incorrect that Job was defined by God as truly righteous. The book of Job clearly displays his distress. . The point of encouraging legitimate servants of the Most High God is my goal. While you are here, I should ask... have you been mistreated while doing Kingdom business?

Actually, you may not be wrong about Satan going before the Lord to acquire access to Job. (And I may have to stand corrected myself.) But just as God asked Adam in Genesis 3 questions to which He already knew the answers (Who told you you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I had commanded you not to eat), God may have been asking Satan the question, "have you considered my servant Job" for the same reason: Because God already knew what Satan was up to. Many times I've heard it taught from an angle of God giving Satan an idea. Those passages really don't necessarily suggest that, because it's not made clear. Again, it could be that God, within HIs nature of asking questions He already knows the answer to - many times to confront a matter in one way or another - may have asked Satan based on already knowing Satan wanted to persecute Job.

Job was persecuted by Satan, because our wrestle isn't against flesh and blood but against demonic attacks (Eph. 6:10-18) I don't think people of God under the old covenant typically were armed in the spirit to face those attacks as we are under the new covenant being redeemed by the blood of Jesus. But spiritual attacks were always on man from the time right before Adam disobeyed. A synonym for attack is persecution. Also, all of Job's friends, except for one, ran their mouths so smugly against Job and about his affliction that God dealt with them in the end as if they had persecuted him.

So, with those passages in mind, you seem to be right on point, Farine.

 

[Farine]

As much as this discussion suddenly got traction when I mentioned Job, there are more instances to examine. Thank you for joining me in considering this. Thank you Unfinished for Bible verses that help prove Job was persecuted.

The overarching conclusion that many examples produce is that truth offends. A lot. A dealer in truth is going to be attacked. Now that's an assertion that needs to be proven. Whether or not one agrees that Job is such an example, for the sake of the goal, I must press on to more examples.

It's important to use examples from both covenants. Let's look at Stephen, the first Christian Martyr from Acts 7. To get a feel for the man himself, one must consider Acts 6:8-15. For sake of the brevity of this post, I'm going to just highlight that Stephen had these qualities: "a man full of God’s grace and power, performed great wonders and signs among the people"... and his opponents " could not stand up against the wisdom the Spirit gave him as he spoke." He ended up in court.

Acts 7 is actually his deposition which Stephen defended himself in a legal proceeding. This court was so enraged with his words that at the ringing conclusion of his speech, they killed him. What were the words that 'pushed them over the edge?"

“You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit! "

Yes, Stephen laid the death of Jesus on them (and rightly so, the same men who schemed to murder Jesus were in this same group of men). Before this group could conspire, there was the hardening of their hearts to the message, mission and miracles of Jesus. Even Stephen came highly authenticated by God with great wonders and signs among the people.

Before the attack, before the outrage, came a resolute refusal to listen to the Spirit.

 

[Farine]

So far, we have Job's and Stephen's Listeners with different issues. That might be a worth while point that rejection of God's truth could be for one of a number of reasons. Consider Moses' listeners.

Moses was a prophet who spoke to God face to face as a friend. (Exodus 33:11) On top of that, God sent Moses to Pharoah to release the Hebrews in one of the most spectacular displays of God's power. One would think Moses' leadership position was permanently accepted. Not so. There were several attacks on Moses' leadership role. Korah's rebellion (Numbers 16), includes 250 notable leaders from the 12 tribes disputing Moses' right to lead them headed by three Levites (Korah and Dathan and Abiram).

Korah's objection..(verse 3b) "You have gone too far! The whole community is holy, every one of them, and the Lord is with them. Why then do you set yourselves above the Lord’s assembly?”

Moses says (verse 7b) "...The man the Lord chooses will be the one who is holy. You Levites have gone too far!” ... and....
(verse 10) "... He has brought you and all your fellow Levites near himself, but now you are trying to get the priesthood too."

See WHY these three Levites sinned so greatly that they died. They died in a totally new way. (verse 30) " But if the Lord brings about something totally new, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them, with everything that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the realm of the dead, then you will know that these men have treated the Lord with contempt."

Oh, the 250 notable leaders died too. (verse 35) Fire from Heaven.

Let's just consider this one incident to not get overloaded with details.

As a messenger from God, you can have organized resistance by highly placed people. Your resume can include powerful displays of God's power. Dialogue can fail to resolve the issue. The authority of spiritual truth can lure people to dispute with you (to the death).

Here's my opinion... that Korah and all the other leaders chose to forget (Numbers 14) where they along with the entire people rebelled and grumbled over the evil report that ten spies gave over possessing the land. They had lost the right to enter into the Promised Land through unbelief. Cut off from Destiny, doesn't it look like 'live for today' is taking place?

Also, Korah and his band dispute how rank works in the Kingdom of Heaven. It's as if he's saying, "Aren't we all the same rank?" This concept that the Kingdom of Heaven has a version of democracy is alive and well in our day too.

This incident highlights how the authority of truth sparks power-based disputes and how far people are willing to go to defend their influence.

 

[unfinishedclay]

doesn't it look like 'live for today' is taking place?

Yes, just like the way things are with society today.

 

[unfinishedclay]

So, basically all these messengers are under attack for the message they give. And the attacks occur from within our fellowships in addition to the attacks we get from unbelievers. You're point out the mishap of the challenges from within? That among believers we're sometimes challenged to recognize truth based on who delivers it? I think that's what you're showing. I certainly can see that among us today within the Body of Christ.

 

[Farine]

So, basically all these messengers are under attack for the message they give. And the attacks occur from within our fellowships in addition to the attacks we get from unbelievers. You're point out the mishap of the challenges from within? That among believers we're sometimes challenged to recognize truth based on who delivers it? I think that's what you're showing. I certainly can see that among us today within the Body of Christ.

I started out with the premise that God could and would send anyone He wanted to. In practice, I agree with you. There are entrenched positions and people who expect truth to flow from them to others and who are exceptionally resistant to truth received from others.

There was a wise man who once said." God is the only employer who will fire you and leave you at your job."

Have you met a person with a ministry title who had been 'fired'?

 

[unfinishedclay]

I started out with the premise that God could and would send anyone He wanted to. In practice, I agree with you. There are entrenched positions and people who expect truth to flow from them to others and who are exceptionally resistant to truth received from others.

There was a wise man who once said." God is the only employer who will fire you and leave you at your job."

Have you met a person with a ministry title who had been 'fired'?

Yes. Recently the children and I had been discussing King Saul, King Uzziah, and King Nebucadnezzar in Sunday School. I love how they soak up the lessons like little sponges. They participate and paraphrase what had been said to them and give their own input based on what they go through in the little world of playgrounds.

Of course, I also see those occupied positions by fired ministers in media ministries - not all, but too many sadly. But our prayers continue for everybody. And I'm still learning to pray and how to pray for what vexes me concerning those fired ministry positions. To discern how much damage is being done causing weaker brethren to fall and unbelievers to fall further is a challenge. I know I can't just blurt out everything I discern. And I've had such a horrible habit of doing that - causing more problems. Learning to be quiet is my challenge but my goal when I see things like that. Here, I'm glad to be able to express it within a sound online setting to address it and receive insight about it all from fellow believers. It strengthens and fuels me to go do right being built up within the Body.

 

[unfinishedclay]

Have you met a person with a ministry title who had been 'fired'?

Oh, and yes, I have met people with ministry titles who had been 'fired.' And I believe I've even encountered people who have titles in ministry having never been 'hired' (called for those positions) in the first place.

 

[Farine]

Here, I'm glad to be able to express it within a sound online setting to address it and receive insight about it all from fellow believers. It strengthens and fuels me to go do right being built up within the Body.

Here is an invitation to take this particular part and have it be a PM conversation. I'll PM you to start with.. Let's keep this going!

 

[Farine]

Elijah was mentioned by the Apostle James as an example for us in effective prayer. (James 5:17-18). The brief reference James makes to praying for it not to rain and then later on God's timing, praying for rain is found in its fullness in 1 Kings 17- 18.

The Moody Institute made a video about these two chapters so you can watch it if you like.

 

[Geralt]

we must understand all (religious) authority given to men/women are all temporary and conditional. people always forget this and are swallowed up in pride and privilege eventually.

not that when you die or grow old you resign from authority, what i'm pointing out is that the authority is conditional to one's life submitting to the truth and life of/for the gospel. the gospel truth (in scripture) therefore scripture qualifies all other authority.

But even if WE OR AND ANGEL from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. (Gal 1:8-9)
​

read those verses 7x until it gets to you. while those verses speak of damnation to all who subvert and distort the gospel, another more important message is that the GOSPEL truth and its presentation qualifies all other authority. not even Paul (an apostle) , nor an angel is (by virtue of their supernatural nature and function) is exempted from this rule. the gospel qualifies ALL authority under heaven.

people in position (or even without position) may preach/teach the gospel, but if they live their lives contrary to what they preach- then there is no authority there. its like you sitting in the bench listening to a sermon but all the while yourself thinking about the preacher " your actions speaks so much i can no longer hear what you are saying".

the opposite is also true, people may live so christ-like helping the poor, giving all they have, etc.. but preach a message contrary to the clear gospel message, then there is no authority there as well.

bottomline is we qualify everything by scripture.​

So far, we have Job's and Stephen's Listeners with different issues. That might be a worth while point that rejection of God's truth could be for one of a number of reasons. Consider Moses' listeners.

Moses was a prophet who spoke to God face to face as a friend. (Exodus 33:11) On top of that, God sent Moses to Pharoah to release the Hebrews in one of the most spectacular displays of God's power. One would think Moses' leadership position was permanently accepted. Not so. There were several attacks on Moses' leadership role. Korah's rebellion (Numbers 16), includes 250 notable leaders from the 12 tribes disputing Moses' right to lead them headed by three Levites (Korah and Dathan and Abiram).

Korah's objection..(verse 3b) "You have gone too far! The whole community is holy, every one of them, and the Lord is with them. Why then do you set yourselves above the Lord’s assembly?”

Moses says (verse 7b) "...The man the Lord chooses will be the one who is holy. You Levites have gone too far!” ... and....
(verse 10) "... He has brought you and all your fellow Levites near himself, but now you are trying to get the priesthood too."

See WHY these three Levites sinned so greatly that they died. They died in a totally new way. (verse 30) " But if the Lord brings about something totally new, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them, with everything that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the realm of the dead, then you will know that these men have treated the Lord with contempt."

Oh, the 250 notable leaders died too. (verse 35) Fire from Heaven.

Let's just consider this one incident to not get overloaded with details.

As a messenger from God, you can have organized resistance by highly placed people. Your resume can include powerful displays of God's power. Dialogue can fail to resolve the issue. The authority of spiritual truth can lure people to dispute with you (to the death).

Here's my opinion... that Korah and all the other leaders chose to forget (Numbers 14) where they along with the entire people rebelled and grumbled over the evil report that ten spies gave over possessing the land. They had lost the right to enter into the Promised Land through unbelief. Cut off from Destiny, doesn't it look like 'live for today' is taking place?

Also, Korah and his band dispute how rank works in the Kingdom of Heaven. It's as if he's saying, "Aren't we all the same rank?" This concept that the Kingdom of Heaven has a version of democracy is alive and well in our day too.

This incident highlights how the authority of truth sparks power-based disputes and how far people are willing to go to defend their influence.

 

[Farine]

1 Kings 17:1 (NIV)
Now Elijah the Tishbite, from Tishbe in Gilead, said to Ahab, “As the Lord, the God of Israel, lives, whom I serve, there will be neither dew nor rain in the next few years except at my word.”

The video above brings out the concept, presumably for the youth watching it, that serving a dead god like Baal cannot make it rain. Only the Lord controls the rain. Living in Los Angeles, under a severe drought, this 'brings it home'.

As a side note, here is what our drought looks like....



In Ahab's reign, three years with no dew or rain would be economically devastating.
Obadiah, King Ahab's servant, testifies to Ahab's relentless search for Elijah. (1 Kings 18: 10)
"...As surely as the Lord your God lives, there is not a nation or kingdom where my master has not sent someone to look for you. And whenever a nation or kingdom claimed you were not there, he made them swear they could not find you."

So before the speech Elijah gives the people, there is all this prelude. Three years of debating about the weather.. was it Baal who scorched the grass and crops? Was it God who sent Elijah to bring them back to their forsaken covenant? Their humanity, denied basic things, was brought back over and over to consider it.

In our day we have this debate all over again. Not Baal, but a fierce determination not to acknowledge a Creator. The economic base has been shaken in our day too.

 

[Razare]

We have gathered truth together in various creeds and prayers. We do not gather each other. If someone has been given something true, something wise, something helpful, then why can't that person be received?

There are too many immature Christians put in roles such as pastor and teacher.

until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. - Ephesians 4:13

Unity in the church is attained by attaining to the fullness of Christ in our lives and daily walk.

So when you see a person who lives every day like you could possibly mistake him for Jesus, then you have arrived at a candidate to see someone who has melded into the truth sufficiently, where unity in the church could be found.

Todd White is the only guy I know who is close to this. So there are perhaps tens of thousands operating this way out of millions of Christians.

You wont have unity in the church when we permit buildings, budgets, staff, and routine/organization into the body as the systems that govern it's operation. Never in the book of acts do we see that buildings, budgets, staff, and routine being the guiding force of the church, nor how it organizes or decides.

 

[Farine]

we must understand all (religious) authority given to men/women are all temporary and conditional. people always forget this and are swallowed up in pride and privilege eventually..... bottomline is we qualify everything by scripture.​

Yes, yes and yes! I agree with your whole post. Geralt, what you do is Biblical and sound. You are testing the message for living words from God. That is why Jesus quoted during his first temptation "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." That is righteous and edifying.

The 'fired' teachers who are speaking out of their own thoughts and feelings would be denied an audience if the whole flock would do just what you say. Their funding would dry up. There would be no response to feed upon. And eventually they would get into another line of work.

Here is where you laid great emphasis ".. the GOSPEL truth and its presentation qualifies all other authority.." and here is how it qualifies it. Fruit.

Fruit of the Spirit. (Galatians 5)... Fruit of transformed lives.. Fruit of social justice.. and I would add --which you may debate-- fruit of close relationship with God. This close relationship would manifest in various ways. Our God loves diversity. This mark of being near God, of having divine qualities having rubbed off on the inner person, is also in alignment with Scripture.

John 14:11-12
Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing,and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

Man, too many people listen to a leader with very little to no spiritual fruit.. or sound doctrine.

 

[Farine]

There are too many immature Christians put in roles such as pastor and teacher.

until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. - Ephesians 4:13

Unity in the church is attained by attaining to the fullness of Christ in our lives and daily walk.

There are two sides to this unity is what I'm proposing. Hello Razare! Welcome to the Discussion.

There is the certifiable need to vet and approve someone who rightly divides the Word of Truth. Check.
There is also the need to accept the person God has vetted and approved.

The point of listing all these people God approved and certified is that a high percentage of people are naturally disinclined to listen to God's approved messenger. They will gladly hear and accept a fool. 2 Corinthians has a whole long dispute with Paul getting exasperated and saying (chapter 11: 19) ...

" You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise! In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or puts on airs or slaps you in the face. "

In the first covenant, God sent a prophet to say this. (Micah 2:11)..

" If a liar and deceiver comes and says, ‘I will prophesy for you plenty of wine and beer,’ that would be just the prophet for this people!"

Yes, people prefer teaching that scratches an itch. Ah, but if one is truly sent by God, what can one expect? Don't address half the issue. Come back and testify what happens to the man or woman of God who the Spirit has indwelt with the 'just-now' word for the people!

 

[unfinishedclay]

You wont have unity in the church when we permit buildings, budgets, staff, and routine/organization into the body as the systems that govern it's operation. Never in the book of acts do we see that buildings, budgets, staff, and routine being the guiding force of the church, nor how it organizes or decides.

I agree so much with this.

 

[unfinishedclay]

There are two sides to this unity is what I'm proposing. Hello Razare! Welcome to the Discussion.

There is the certifiable need to vet and approve someone who rightly divides the Word of Truth. Check.
There is also the need to accept the person God has vetted and approved.

The point of listing all these people God approved and certified is that a high percentage of people are naturally disinclined to listen to God's approved messenger. They will gladly hear and accept a fool. 2 Corinthians has a whole long dispute with Paul getting exasperated and saying (chapter 11: 19) ...

" You gladly put up with fools since you are so wise! In fact, you even put up with anyone who enslaves you or exploits you or takes advantage of you or puts on airs or slaps you in the face. "

In the first covenant, God sent a prophet to say this. (Micah 2:11)..

" If a liar and deceiver comes and says, ‘I will prophesy for you plenty of wine and beer,’ that would be just the prophet for this people!"

Yes, people prefer teaching that scratches an itch. Ah, but if one is truly sent by God, what can one expect? Don't address half the issue. Come back and testify what happens to the man or woman of God who the Spirit has indwelt with the 'just-now' word for the people!

I think I know a part of the Word that can answer the last question above and align with Micah 2:11; 2 Corinthians 11:19-20). Because King Ahab wanted to be prophesied to and have his itching ears scratched in a "just-now" situation:

1 Kings 22:4-28 and 2 Chronicles 18:4-27

It's an amazing story; and I love it. The prophet, Micaiah, was a true and uncompromising prophet of God but was considered basically the stink weed among many prophets, who falsely prophesied good to King Ahab.

 

[Farine]

I think I know a part of the Word that can answer the last question above and align with Micah 2:11; 2 Corinthians 11:19-20). Because King Ahab wanted to be prophesied to and have his itching ears scratched in a "just-now" situation:

1 Kings 22:4-28 and 2 Chronicles 18:4-27

It's an amazing story; and I love it. The prophet, Micaiah, was a true and uncompromising prophet of God but was considered basically the stink weed among many prophets, who falsely prophesied good to King Ahab.

I had forgotten that story, Unfinished! It is an accurate picture of the frustration of the natural listener ' I don't like him (or her).." and the back story of Heaven.. Yeah, you could get slapped in the face! Or left out as an outcast. God does not abandon His servants. It's still difficult to experience imposed social isolation because one said the truth...

 

[unfinishedclay]

I had forgotten that story, Unfinished! It is an accurate picture of the frustration of the natural listener ' I don't like him (or her).." and the back story of Heaven.. Yeah, you could get slapped in the face! Or left out as an outcast. God does not abandon His servants. It's still difficult to experience imposed social isolation because one said the truth...

LOL Yes, I think a lot of us have been there. Completely alienated after saying or doing what the Lord said to do.

But I think what's pretty hilarious if I think too hard about it, is when I've gotten in the flesh for thinking I'd get human accolades for giving a message from the Lord only to get completely slighted for it...and the frown on my face!

 

[Farine]

LOL Yes, I think a lot of us have been there. Completely alienated after saying or doing what the Lord said to do.

But I think what's pretty hilarious if I think too hard about it, is when I've gotten in the flesh for thinking I'd get human accolades for giving a message from the Lord only to get completely slighted for it...and the frown on my face!

Good Morning Unfinished! I think I know what that frown looks like. There's a different expression on my face today. The humor of it is creeping into my experience. You're right. It's funny to think I would get accolades. Maybe next time, it won't take me weeks to get to that point....