Trans woman beaten

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SilverBear

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That's a wide difference from being unable to function.
except i said: "a person with it can't function fully."


If a trans person wants to be in a female prison because they are more comfortable there....why can't a man who feels more comfortable there be moved to a female prison?
being "comfortable" is something you created for here so all you have is a strawman.

What is the argument?
feelings are legislated all the time.



They can't go because they aren't a woman? Well neither is the trans person.

You can play pretend in your personal life all you want but you can't change reality. If you allow the trans person, you really have to allow the man as well.
i asked I asked what problems with dialy to day living are you claiming trans people have. Your silence speaks volumes
 
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SilverBear

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Because they are transgender. I don't say or do anything to transgender people. I state my opinions on a forum when discussing these issues. If someone asks my opinion I will give it, but I don't offer without being asked. A transgender has never asked me my thoughts.

As a larger point most transgenders obviously suffer with their transgenderism as they have to take drugs, and undergo surgery in order to try and feel better. And they don't. Because it's a mental health issue.
thank you for demonstrating my point
 
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SilverBear

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Links were provided to textbooks for 5th grade children that explicitly describe genital stimulation in the act of self gratification.
except it wasn't true.
Child grooming is pretty much an established fact at this point.
it's a well established lie


I would suggest that the trans community abandoned this endeavor entirely, or they might soon find themselves reclassified again, and far more severely.
They aren't but those who hate will still try to justify their "reclassification"
 
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SilverBear

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Nope, they are examples of truth, as has been described in detail in numerous posts in this thread and others concerning the harm that trans activism is doing to women, children, men in some cases (though not so much in the physical assault sense), LGB people and even other trans people who disagree with the political agenda. The fact that you seem to enjoy carelessly tossing around labels such as hate, bigot, and racist doesn't change that reality.
The label is well deserved
 
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bekkilyn

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The label is well deserved

Labels coming from those who stand firmly in defense of abusers, misogynists, rapists, and pedophiles have no credibility. Labels coming from those who cannot recognize the existence of objective reality also have no credibility. Of course you are free to call things as you will, but the rest of us also have the freedom not to take them seriously or to care.

As Greta Thunberg likes to say, "blah blah blah". :)
 
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Ana the Ist

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The reason why I say that making "biracial" a separate racial category is because it has increased racial categories at a time that we should be reducing racial categories. Creating a whole new identity group does not mitigate the problem of identity politics.

If I were to suggest we stop racial categorization altogether....I think a lot of people would resist the idea.

I would suspect that we would probably find a group of people of any color who would immediately be suspicious of the motive behind the suggestion.

Is it to hide racial oppression? To disguise racial subversion?

I could rationally explain why constantly referring to racial categories reinforces them as significant social differences far past the point where they are accurate or meaningful.

That won't change how people feel about it though.

And black people did not do this. White people--specifically white mothers of biracial children--did this. "Biracial" wasn't even a social concept prior to the 90s. It wasn't until the 90s that the US did what South Africa had done: Create a whole additional racial identity group.

Words referring to bi and multiracial categories are far older than the 90s RD.

Mulatto is a word hundreds of years old that attempts to categorize the same phenomenon you seem to think began in the 90s.

The problem is not the phenomenon it's the attempt to create a distinct categorization of it. People can be distinct at the ethnic-socio-cultural level for a lot of reasons. At the genetic level, we are simply too similar to easily or meaningfully tell apart. The idea of race as a meaningful biological foundation between ethnic, social, or cultural groups is the result of a group of people who increasingly tried to find rational explanations for what these socio-cultural-ethnic were. A lot of racial categorizations were proposed including the "main 3" type that you referred to briefly. The Negroid-Caucazoid-Mongoliod distinction between cranial shapes, hip width, and height (I think, it's been awhile since I read about it) is a result created by geography and as far as I know, not a meaningful distinction.

There is only a few tiny measurable averages that science has been able to find and they don't seem to be based in biology...or at least no one wants to claim they are. Science seems pretty confident they aren't. They typically aren't talked about, because of the stigma that results.

It wasn't an issue for black people until white people started recognizing biracial children as a separate--and preferred--racial identity group. Until the 90s, these were black people, and they identified as black people (which is why there tends to be a cutoff of self-identification for those who are currently 45 or older).

Again, I'm not blaming you for your views here RD.

You don't have to try to justify them.

And it's a mistake to think that it doesn't matter. We have seen a whole new facet of racism appear as "biracial" is accepted as filling the "racial diversity" square, particularly in the media...but it also happens in business.

How does it matter?

Now, to some extent, it can be a cultural issue, or at least a "cultural comfort" issue. A biracial person is more likely to have more fully adopted Anglo-American culture and will be more comfortable to white people (sometimes too comfortable when they forget he's there, as Jesse Williams reports).

....

At this point in America, biracial categorization has merely put a "no-man's land" between blacks and whites.

I don't think it does. I don't know what a biracial or multiracial person thinks nor would I bother trying to assume such things. I tried not to assume such things about you when I learned that you are black.

Any such assumptions may feel tempting because they create any easy framework and pattern of categories that we believe is more reliable than it actually is. I think I can safely say that you have an idea of blackness....and while you certainly include people who you might describe as "the exception" you also imagine a large amount of similarity in "the norm".

It's not your fault you see things this way. Almost everyone sees things this way. It's a result of a biology that has used pattern seeking as a defense against a hostile world. The people who came up with race weren't even aware of the basic level of pattern seeking that was directing their observations and attempts at categorizing. It's not really anyone's fault.

We can imagine individual tribes of early humans with primitive languages separating when they grow too large, traveling to avoid conflict and growing into unique yet similar traditions and eventually cultures. When they once again, bump into another tribe at that point they have a need to use a word to describe themselves and the other tribe. The category is created by necessity. The distinction between self and other is real. The meaning of the culture and traditions are created. The differences beyond that are imaginary.

Does that make sense?

If you understand that is how it went, and we have plenty of evidence for it...then you can understand that the only thing different about the category of race is the degree of rationality behind it. It's not a spiritual distinction, nor is it a philosophical one. It was thought to reside in factual reality.

That's why it was so easily propagated...but it's also why it's falsified. We can just let it go.
 
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SilverBear

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Christians are not trying to legislate me into affirming their views of reality.
marriage equality laws
adoption laws
criminalizing healthcare for transgender youth
allowing religiously-motivated discrimination



It doesn't matter how strongly they believe it or feel it is true. It should not be taught...we have evidence of reality.

The same goes for telling a trans person they are whatever biological sex they feel like. I can certainly understand why people would consider indulging them when it was claimed it would result in less trans people committing suicide.

There's no evidence I've found that it has.
Bailey, L., Ellis, S., & McNeil, J. (2014). Suicide risk in the UK trans population and the role of gender transitioning in decreasing suicidal ideation and suicide attempt. Mental Health Review Journal
Bauer, G., Schiem, A., Travers, R. & Hammond, R. (2015). Intervenable factors associated with suicide risk in transgender persons. BMC Public Health
Haas, A., et al (2011). Suicide and suicide risk in lesbian, gay, bisexual and
transgender populations: Review and recommendations. Journal of Homosexuality
McNeill, J., Ellis, S. & Eccles, S. (2017). Suicide in trans populations: A systematic review of
prevalence and correlates. Psychology of Sexual Orientation
Russell, S., Pollitt, A., Li, G. & Grossman, A. (2018). Gender affirmation linked to reduced depressive symptoms, suicidal ideation, and suicidal behavior among transgender youth. Journal of Adolescent Health.[/quote][/QUOTE]
 
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Ana the Ist

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The reason why I say that making "biracial" a separate racial category is because it has increased racial categories at a time that we should be reducing racial categories. Creating a whole new identity group does not mitigate the problem of identity politics.

If I were to suggest we stop racial categorization altogether....I think a lot of people would resist the idea.

I would suspect that we would probably find a group of people of any color who would immediately be suspicious of the motive behind the suggestion.

Is it to hide racial oppression? To disguise racial subversion?

I could rationally explain why constantly referring to racial categories reinforces them as significant social differences far past the point where they are accurate or meaningful.

That won't change how people feel about it though.

And black people did not do this. White people--specifically white mothers of biracial children--did this. "Biracial" wasn't even a social concept prior to the 90s. It wasn't until the 90s that the US did what South Africa had done: Create a whole additional racial identity group.

Words referring to bi and multiracial categories are far older than the 90s RD.

Mulatto is a word hundreds of years old that attempts to categorize the same phenomenon you seem to think began in the 90s.

The problem is not the phenomenon it's the attempt to create a distinct categorization of it. People can be distinct at the ethnic-socio-cultural level for a lot of reasons. At the genetic level, we are simply too similar to easily or meaningfully tell apart. The idea of race as a meaningful biological foundation between ethnic, social, or cultural groups is the result of a group of people who increasingly tried to find rational explanations for what these socio-cultural-ethnic differences were. A lot of racial categorizations were proposed including the "main 3" type that you referred to briefly. The Negroid-Caucazoid-Mongoliod distinction between cranial shapes, hip width, and height (I think, it's been awhile since I read about it) is a result created by geography and as far as I know, not a meaningful distinction.

There is only a few tiny measurable averages that science has been able to find and they don't seem to be based in biology...or at least no one wants to claim they are. Science seems pretty confident they aren't. They typically aren't talked about, because of the stigma that results.

It wasn't an issue for black people until white people started recognizing biracial children as a separate--and preferred--racial identity group. Until the 90s, these were black people, and they identified as black people (which is why there tends to be a cutoff of self-identification for those who are currently 45 or older).

Again, I'm not blaming you for your views here RD.

You don't have to try to justify them.

And it's a mistake to think that it doesn't matter. We have seen a whole new facet of racism appear as "biracial" is accepted as filling the "racial diversity" square, particularly in the media...but it also happens in business.

How does it matter?

Now, to some extent, it can be a cultural issue, or at least a "cultural comfort" issue. A biracial person is more likely to have more fully adopted Anglo-American culture and will be more comfortable to white people (sometimes too comfortable when they forget he's there, as Jesse Williams reports).

....

At this point in America, biracial categorization has merely put a "no-man's land" between blacks and whites.

I don't think it does. I don't know what a biracial or multiracial person thinks nor would I bother trying to assume such things. I tried not to assume such things about you when I learned you were black. I'm fully aware that can come with viewpoints and beliefs...but I can't think of any reason to assume them.

Why would I do this to some biracial or multiracial person? I would unnecessarily create a limitation on them by the imposition of my own expectations and any attempt to spread these expectations. To do so would create a society where they have to deal with these expectations. It's going to happen to some degree or another anyway...but I don't need to participate in it.
 
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Ana the Ist

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except i said: "a person with it can't function fully."

And you don't seem to understand the difference.

being "comfortable" is something you created for here so all you have is a strawman.

Nope...that's the issue taken by trans activists on jail.

Comfort. They feel as if their lives are in danger....which is roughly the same feeling most prisoners describe.

It's rather uncomfortable. It's prison.

feelings are legislated all the time.

Not really. Behavior is legislated. Feelings, beliefs, and views are a protected right...but behavior isn't.


i asked I asked what problems with dialy to day living are you claiming trans people have. Your silence speaks volumes

I don't know and I don't claim to.

If my refusal to deny reality causes them distress....they have to live with that.

I can't deny reality because of someone's feelings.
 
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Ana the Ist

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except it wasn't true.
it's a well established lie

What would you consider evidence?

They aren't but those who hate will still try to justify their "reclassification"

Do you understand that the legal standard for medical treatment against someone's will and typically the subsequent diagnosis of mental illness is harm to one's self or others?

It wouldn't be that difficult to gather up some people damaged by this process by misdiagnosis, pressure the medical community to justify their actions or face legal consequences, and you know what the predictable result of that will be?

They'll blame pressure from trans activists and gladly reclassify the community as an illness to avoid any legal punishment.

The harm done by this is floating on a paper thin sheet of ice that the child, detransitioned, chemically and surgically altered, will accept the guilt for choices made in early childhood.

They won't be hard to convince that they are victims.
 
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Ana the Ist

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marriage equality laws
adoption laws

And you would find me opposing them on those issues at the political level.

What they don't do, at least apart from individual instances, is try to legislate the imposition of their moral views through the indoctrination of children in a public school.

Push whatever morality you want to on your own children. Pushing it on someone else's child, particularly when it involves the sexuality of the child, is child grooming.

allowing religiously-motivated discrimination

I've got no idea what this means .


Bailey, L., Ellis, S., & McNeil, J. (2014). Suicide risk in the UK trans population and the role of gender transitioning in decreasing suicidal ideation and suicide attempt. Mental Health Review Journal
Bauer, G., Schiem, A., Travers, R. & Hammond, R. (2015). Intervenable factors associated with suicide risk in transgender persons. BMC Public Health
Haas, A., et al (2011). Suicide and suicide risk in lesbian, gay, bisexual and
transgender populations: Review and recommendations. Journal of Homosexuality
McNeill, J., Ellis, S. & Eccles, S. (2017). Suicide in trans populations: A systematic review of
prevalence and correlates. Psychology of Sexual Orientation
Russell, S., Pollitt, A., Li, G. & Grossman, A. (2018). Gender affirmation linked to reduced depressive symptoms, suicidal ideation, and suicidal behavior among transgender youth. Journal of Adolescent Health.

I'm sorry, but the research is simply too new to know if the benefits are from the actual affirmation....or whether it's because they're seeing others indulge them.

Either way, it's a completely separate issue from allowing children the right to consent.

That's a further step removed from the imposition of your moral views upon everyone's children.

And you're quoting articles from 2018. What if the case studies in those articles are followed up 10 years later and those people have committed suicide?
 
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Ana the Ist

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It's a far simpler question than people make it out to be.

Out of children experiencing gender dysphoria, how accurately can a medical professional diagnose someone as "trans"?

Because we're talking about 15-10% of children who experience gender dysphoria.

That's all.

The vast majority either grow up to be heterosexual or homosexual adults with no gender dysphoria.

Only about 10-15% of children with gender dysphoria persist in the "feeling" well into adulthood. I can't find any study that shows how accurately a professional can diagnose a young child. I'm fairly certain it's because they can't. As best as I can tell, transgenderism is a mental condition resulting from feelings of gender dysphoria as children that never resolved. It's a condition only easily diagnosed in an adult...and even then I've found no reliable data on adult diagnosis.

If the choice is between treating the adult or treating the child, I'd rather the adult with unresolved gender dysphoria seek treatment.

Children cannot consent.

Nobody has the right to socially engineer other people's children towards a moral standpoint for their own ends.

I would never cede that to the state. You're done with individual freedom and liberty at that point.
 
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RDKirk

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Words referring to bi and multiracial categories are far older than the 90s RD.

Mulatto is a word hundreds of years old that attempts to categorize the same phenomenon you seem to think began in the 90s.

Yes, my geneological research has revealed a great-great grandparent who was classified as "mulatto" in the federal census. I've submitted my DNA to see if it links with any of the white family trees with the same name from that town.

And, of course, Louisiana (following French concepts) had classified biracial percentages down to at least the 1/16 level, giving each percentage more privilege--but never complete freedom--the more white they were.

That whole issue was mostly wiped away by the hyper focus on genetic purity in the early 20th century (and that was not all about the issue with black people). The one-drop rule became even more strict after 1920 than it had been in 1850.

We would have been better off at this point evolving from the one-drop rule than from having re-created multiple racial categories.

I don't think it does. I don't know what a biracial or multiracial person thinks nor would I bother trying to assume such things. I tried not to assume such things about you when I learned you were black. I'm fully aware that can come with viewpoints and beliefs...but I can't think of any reason to assume them.

I know what some think--I have some in my family. I even have biracial grandchildren.
 
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RDKirk

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Probably the one that was hardest was a black man digging deep into his genealogy only to find out he descended from a black slaver, in the antebellum south. You can literally watch the guy stunned as he can't really reconcile the idea of being a beneficiary of that system and the image of righteous struggle he probably identified himself with up until that point.

That was a man who had never actually learned the facts about slavery, or he'd have known there was a significant likelihood that some black woman in his family had been raped and impregnated by a slaveowner.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Yes, my geneological research has revealed a great-great grandparent who was classified as "mulatto" in the federal census. I've submitted my DNA to see if it links with any of the white family trees with the same name from that town.

I've never felt compelled to do any research. I'm not really afraid of what I'd find...I honestly don't care. It seems like it's an attempt to derive current meaning from past events by picturing the causal chain that leads to you. I don't think that is a great way to create meaning. It's not the worst...but meh...

However, I did enjoy reading a few horror stories about it (like a guy who found out his uncle on his dad's side was actually his dad).

Funny stuff.

And, of course, Louisiana (following French concepts) had classified biracial percentages down to at least the 1/16 level, giving each percentage more privilege--but never complete freedom--the more white they were.

This sounds difficult to do in practice. Did people have to carry around cards or something?

That whole issue was mostly wiped away by the hyper focus on genetic purity in the early 20th century (and that was not all about the issue with black people). The one-drop rule became even more strict after 1920 than it had been in 1850.

Are you referring to the Eugenics movement?

We would have been better off at this point evolving from the one-drop rule than from having re-created multiple racial categories.

You're aware that good arguments against Eugenics were made and as psychological methods improved....the theory of race began to increasingly become unlikely until about the mid 80s...then formally disproven in the 90s...I think. It might have been early 2000s. You could have been a scientist who believed in race in the 80s but it was so socially unacceptable by the 90s you would have been alone in the room. By 2000 if you still believed in race as a scientific concept you'd be considered a quack. There's very little room for the concept to hope to hold any explanatory power barring some amazing discovery that no scientists are really looking for.

It's not an inherently meaningful distinction. It need not exist at all. We could, in fact, identify with completely different and unrelated things...things that have value. We need not group up at all unless externally threatened.

I know what some think--I have some in my family. I even have biracial grandchildren.

Not trying to change your views RD. I'm not trying to shame you for them. If I had thought you were white, and you had described mixed race children as a problem for society...I would have replied with some degree of pushback. It would have been said differently....but I would have said it.

The least I owe you is the honesty to tell you I disagree. I can promise that I'm not the only white person on this forum who does.

That was a man who had never actually learned the facts about slavery, or he'd have known there was a significant likelihood that some black woman in his family had been raped and impregnated by a slaveowner.

I'm sorry....really not trying to mislead you there. Black slaveowner. That's the only thing I remember about it. I don't think he's one of the "buy your slave wife because you got your freedom" black slavers....I think he's one of the "buy a few dozen black slaves to work your plantation" black slavers.

This was why he was devastated. I don't know the exact count. I know that the late antebellum had anywhere from a few hundred to a few thousand of these guys in any state so...while they would still represent a minority of black ancestors today...

There's probably a lot of black people descended from these guys. More than people think.

Nobody wants to teach that history in school....I can tell you that.
 
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RDKirk

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Not trying to change your views RD. I'm not trying to shame you for them. If I had thought you were white, and you had described mixed race children as a problem for society...I would have replied with some degree of pushback. It would have been said differently....but I would have said it.

I am not saying that mixed-race children are a problem. My grandchildren are not a problem.

I'm saying that setting them apart as a wholly different, additional identity group is a problem. We don't need yet more identity groups.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I am not saying that mixed-race children are a problem. My grandchildren are not a problem.

Well it happened because we have not eliminated racial categories altogether.

It's probably not worth creating a new category. It's probably more accurate to describe 99% of people as multiracial to some degree or another...but then it's a meaningless distinction (which it is) and there's no need to refer to it at all.

I'm saying that setting them apart as a wholly different, additional identity group is a problem. We don't need yet more identity groups.

And it's a thing that "white women did"...is that how you put it?

I'm not sure how you imagine this process played out...but I'm sure interested. I've heard some wild ideas about race in my day from people but I have a feeling this will be a new one.

How do you think this went down?
 
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SilverBear

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And you don't seem to understand the difference.
pretend you are a college student who is developing depression. last year you were on the deans list. this year you are scraping by with c level grades. you are still passing and still going to classes but you aren't functioning like you were a year ago. you have impaired function even though you are succeeding.


Nope...that's the issue taken by trans activists on jail.

Comfort. They feel as if their lives are in danger....which is roughly the same feeling most prisoners describe.

It's rather uncomfortable. It's prison.
you just escribed safety not comfort



Not really. Behavior is legislated. Feelings, beliefs, and views are a protected right...but behavior isn't.



I don't know and I don't claim to.
Does a trans person's behaviour, thinking, or emotions cause them distress or problems functioning? Of course they do.


So again, what exactly are these problems?
 
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SilverBear

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What would you consider evidence?

how about the name and publisher of this textbook?
how about an actual citation of the supposed explicit acts?
how about naming the elementary schools this supposed textbook was distributed and used?


Do you understand that the legal standard for medical treatment against someone's will and typically the subsequent diagnosis of mental illness is harm to one's self or others?
which is why three separate evaluations need to be conducted and arrive at the same conclusion and then a judge has to be convinced in an actual court.

none of which as anything to do with your implied threat of the "trans community ...might soon find themselves reclassified again, and far more severely."


The harm done by this is floating on a paper thin sheet of ice that the child, detransitioned, chemically and surgically altered, will accept the guilt for choices made in early childhood.

They won't be hard to convince that they are victims.
good thing children aren't being surgically altered[/QUOTE]
 
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SilverBear

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And you would find me opposing them on those issues at the political level.

What they don't do, at least apart from individual instances, is try to legislate the imposition of their moral views through the indoctrination of children in a public school.
sure they do. Missouri just passed a a law silencing any discussion of LGBT rights in the schools.

Push whatever morality you want to on your own children. Pushing it on someone else's child, particularly when it involves the sexuality of the child, is child grooming.
so Missouri is "child grooming"?


I've got no idea what this means .
business want to be exempt from having to observe the civil rights protections of LGBT people and legislatures are supporting this


I'm sorry, but the research is simply too new to know if the benefits are from the actual affirmation....or whether it's because they're seeing others indulge them.
there is research form the 80's and 90's. What excuse will you use to dismiss that evidence?
 
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