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TORAH observant tithing....

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by HolySpiritWOF2, May 13, 2012.

  1. yedida

    yedida Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

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    Most Christian denominations love to tout the tithe as obedience as they disobey everything else that God commanded. The tithe pads their pockets and is very personally beneficial, the other commands are personally very inconvenient. Go figure.
    Yeshua never taught nor commanded a tithe. He did command charity and good works from a cheerful, joyful heart.
     
    HolySpiritWOF2 likes this.
  2. Chaplain David

    Chaplain David CF Chaplain Staff Member Chaplain Supporter Recovery Team

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    Hi, I'm sacerdote, one of the forum chaplains. I think you've done really well asking the questions you wanted to ask but not going into discussion or debate or even phrasing the questions in such a way so they would be a type of discussion. Non MJ's according to the forum SOP may only post in fellowship. You've done well with that. Thank you for honoring this forum's rules and the members of the forum.

    In Christ,
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2012
  3. HolySpiritWOF2

    HolySpiritWOF2 Newbie

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    yes.... YESHUA rebuked the Pharisees for OCD tithing BUT leaving the weightier things neglected.... and thereby NULLIFYING G_D's WORD....

    the malachi non-compliance curse is what most christians are afraid of.... that curse MAKES it sound like HASHEM is VERY angry about anyone who shirks on the tithe....

    kenneth hagin said that we misunderstand G_d's WORD because we "see" with western eyes.... that is why i MUST understand the tithe from the JUDAIC perspective..... and then learn what the MJ's know about the B'RIT CHADASHAH.... and all the while learn from the RUACH ELOHIM....

    in the past i attended a messianic group (none of us were JEWISH) for a year and learned a lot.... right now there is no MJ group in my area.... nor a WOF group in my area.... so CF is my ONLY source for WORD fellowship....

    i appreciate all things TORAH.... i prefer to go WORD by WORD on what G_D says.... i know there are many opinions in ANY faith group.... but i LOVE any who study the TANAKH and YESHUA'S teachings line upon line....

    because of this tithe issue.... and because there is now an ALL THINGS TORAH forum.... i am interested in renewing my MJ studies.... any group that takes G_D's WORDS literally as a lifestyle appeals to me....

    love.... blessings.... prayers....
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2012
  4. HolySpiritWOF2

    HolySpiritWOF2 Newbie

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    thank you.... i am here to learn ONLY.... i have no desire to debate or discuss.... i respect MJ-ism.... i have many questions that i WANT the JUDAIC perspective on.... i know MJ's and JEWS are already well aqcuainted with the christian perspective.... so for me the ALL THINGS TORAH is a treasure trove of JUDAIC wisdom....

    christians tend to study the B'RIT CHADASHAH and YESHUA'S teachings indepth.... which i love.... JEWS and MJ's study the TANAKH indepth.... which i need.... MJ's harmonize the TANAKH and YESHUA'S teachings.... which is unique....

    many christian theological errors are due to gross misunderstandings of the TANAKH....

    i am very thankful that there is an ALL THINGS TORAH forum on CF.... where JEWS and MJ's fellowship.... this is a blessing....
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2012
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  5. Chaplain David

    Chaplain David CF Chaplain Staff Member Chaplain Supporter Recovery Team

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    This is laudable. Are you considering becoming a Messianic Jew?
     
  6. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassador

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    Feeling that, as it is rather amazing to see how intense of a topic the malachi tithe subject can be, be it with others that are for it or others against it or others that are indifferent. Growing up and seeing the Lord provide for my mother and I as she was faithful in giving 10% (as she was for the Malachi tithe concept) and always saw the miraculous in comparision to when she didn't---and by no means were we rich---she always took it seriously and so did I.

    The main scripture that we were raised with on the issue was one where Christ noted to the people how they needed to do as the Pharisees said (as they sat in Moses's seat and in as much as it lined up with God's commands, they were to obey) but not do as they acted since they were hypocrites...and it seemed plain to us that Christ alluded to the continuance of tithing in Matthew 23:23, as a Jewish man living under the Law and yet disliking those who abused it:
    For us, it seemed rather plain that Yeshua according to Matthew 23 commanded the religious leaders of his day to tithe since he said that they should have done so in accordance with the themes of justice/mercy and love....

    Of course, when later running into people who didn't tithe/were very angry at those who do, it was a continual battle in showing why the scriptures say as they do and wondering who was or wasn't right. One of the main arguments was "Well, Yeshua was under the Old Testament Law so his endorsement of tithing doesn't mean anything for believers!!!!"...which often seemed inconsistent since Christ noted many other things in the OT law (i.e. Thou shall not murder, Thou shall not commit adultery, as seen in Luke 19 etc) and yet not one opposing Christ on the issue of tithing would say dare say the same about the other parts of the Law they were always advocating for people to keep.

    To me, it was always interesting whenever others said "Tithing doesn't do ANYTHING for a person!!!" even though I know 100% that the Lord came through for those on my side of the street and others who did tithe....and for people who said alot of things (i.e. "It was only about taxes!!!" or "It was oppressive!!!"), it never seemed to be the case that they addressed all aspects of what the Torah said about the requirements of the Law/God's heart in the matter. On the same token, for people that were "pro-tithe"/against others who didn't do so, it always seemed odd how alot of questions I had never seemed to get addressed plainly....at times appearing to be inconsistent when saying the apostles commanded tithting and yet I never saw any evidence for such....and in seeing the lives of others who didn't tithe and yet they were living prosperous lives/known for contributting much financially in the Body, I couldn't be of the mindset that the Lord only blessed "tithers" or others who were for 10% only.

    In time, my viewpoint tended to change to seeing how the Lord was about providing for those who are cheerful givers and who give in faith, especially when it may be difficult times for them.


    Cool to know. Praying you'd find what it is that you're looking for as it concerns getting information on the history of the tithe. Thankfully, it is not the case that all Christians may misunderstand the tithe (or numerous other things discussed within the Torah), as a good number of them are accurate and have an excellent understanding of how the system of Mosaic Law operated...and, for that matter, knowing what it means to have Biblical Financial stewardship in light of what the OT teaches. Although I'm thankful for MJism in the many ways they've sought to give accuracy on the Law, I'm also glad for the many camps within it that've noted how it often does not make sense to assume all within Christianity don't have the same mindset (in light of the many who often accuse all Christians throughout history of being lawless heathen, who have constantly derided and ignored the instruction of the Law of Moses when many have been in line with God's instruction, depending on where you look).

    One Messianic leader, known as John McKee of TNN, did an excellent job of addressing that once before (seen here ).

    On the tithing issue, as another wonderful minister in the Lord noted when sharing on what NT believers went through in regards to financial stewardship:
    People who know that they can't be disciples of Christ unless they give up all their possessions (see Luke 14:33), who know that their Lord forbids them to lay up earthly treasures (Matt. 6:19), and who know that He expects them to love one another as He has loved them (see John 13:34), don't see the point of arguing about tithing. They aren't trying to find out how little they can give without feeling guilty. This is precisely why there is no endorsement of tithing in the New Testament epistles. It is a mute point. Christ's true disciple's are not like the Pharisees who scrupulously tithed their garden herbs while neglecting "the love of God" (Luke 11:42) and the love of neighbor (see Matt. 23:23). Christ's true disciples live to please the One who redeemed them from sin.
    Blessings to you as well, sis. Shalom :)
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2012
  7. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassador

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    Glad for what Brother Hagin noted, as he was real man of God and it blessed my mother and I growing up on what he taught when it came to the friends/family we had in the world of Word of Faith. Some things I disagree with him on...but on alot of things, he was on point, especially as it concerns walking in faith/trusting the Lord in all things:) Alot of what he advocated laid the groundwork for many in the Faith movement to want to have deeper exploration of Hebrew/Jewish roots in Christianity and seeing the fullness of what the Tanakh says and how it is reflected deeply in the NT on multiple principles for living life according to the Ruach Ha Kodesh. The way the Lord works is amazing....
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2012
  8. HolySpiritWOF2

    HolySpiritWOF2 Newbie

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    being in this forum reminded me of the year i studied with a messianic group.... none of us were JEWISH in any way..... and we were total newbies.... learning from a 101 video series that was done by..... tree of life founder.... messianic rabbi paul liberman.... i believe paul said he was born and raised JEWISH....

    the messianics i studied with/lived with were of the understanding that gentiles could become messianic.... but not JEWISH.... so we called ourselves messianics.... we observed all the feasts.... ate kosher.... faithfully celebrated SHABBAT from sundown fri to sundown sat.... with all the blessings and readings.... etc....

    we were an isolated group of about 30 adults plus children.... learning from scratch..... we tried to liaise -as much as allowed- with the JEWISH community.... in our attempt to learn the JUDAIC ways.... and find kosher suppliers....

    to answer your question: AFTER i have sorted out the JUDAIC understanding of tithe.... i am definitely committed to PROPERLY studying MJ doctrine.... i would ONLY convert - make a public stand as an MJ - when i was sufficiently understanding of MJ doctrine....

    just an off-topic question..... how JUDAIC is MJ theology?.... is it very close to JEWISH theology?..... would JEWS feel a kinship with MJ's?..... or are there too many differences?..... it's actually the JUDAIC perspective that i want to understand?..... and MJ seems JUDAIC to me....

    love.... peace.... blessings....
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2012
  9. Chaplain David

    Chaplain David CF Chaplain Staff Member Chaplain Supporter Recovery Team

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    Despite being staff and a caretaker for this forum I am new to all of this.

    Please always accept my questions as having something good behind them. If I ever want to say something it will be very clear. I'm just saying that so you will know me better.

    Have you ever looked at the new forum SOP? If you get a chance please do. Can you relate to any of it? I think the MJ's would be much better at replying to what you said but I am happy you said it because I understand you better.
     
  10. HolySpiritWOF2

    HolySpiritWOF2 Newbie

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    i LOVE the new MJ SOF.... it is far better than the old one.... the old SOF wasn't very distinctive/comprehensive in terms of declaring MJ doctrines.... and setting guidelines for non-MJ's to follow.... i agree with the new SOF....

    i love the new peace and safety in the MJ forum.... i was praying for this forum when they were trying to sort out the issues that were causing/allowing their house to be a stomping ground for non-MJ anti-TORAH posts.... it is great that there is now no debating and proselytyzing allowed....

    i LOVE the new TORAH sub-forum.... i won't bring any christianity into the TORAH forum.... i feel that would be disrespectful.... i want to hear/learn the JUDAIC perspective in the TORAH forum....


    BARUCH ADONAI.... hesed.... shalom shalom....
    (the HEBREW i learned years ago is starting to come back to me)
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2012
  11. Chaplain David

    Chaplain David CF Chaplain Staff Member Chaplain Supporter Recovery Team

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    Fantastic. Tish got everything together she needed and did most of it herself with some outside help. Glad your Hebrew is coming back. Also glad you feel more comfortable and safe here. I've always called a good forum a "forum home."
     
  12. Qnts2

    Qnts2 New Member

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    Rabbinic Jews reject Messianic Judaism. The issue is Jesus. There is a kind of kinship because we are all Jewish, but a distance because Messianic Jews believe in Jesus. Rabbinic Jews generally speaking, do not understand Gentiles who try to keep the Mosaic law.

    And MJ theology varies. Messianic Judaism was started by Jewish believers, and is based on a Jewish view and Jewish culture, so somethings are common, but others do vary. Messianic Judaism is not a denomination but was started as a movement, when a large number of Jewish people came to believe in Jesus.
     
  13. HolySpiritWOF2

    HolySpiritWOF2 Newbie

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    wow... awesome info....

    so does that mean that.... RABBINIC JEWS and JEWISH messianics are similarly JUDAIC in their TANAKH teachings.... and really only differ on the issue of YESHUA?....

    shalom shalom....
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2012
  14. HolySpiritWOF2

    HolySpiritWOF2 Newbie

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    why don't RABBINIC JEWS understand gentiles trying to keep the MOSAIC LAW?.... do they believe the LAW is ONLY for JEWS.... and gentiles are righteous apart from keeping the law?.... or do they prefer gentiles to convert to JUDAISM?.... or some other reason?....

    do RABBINIC JEWS believe the righteous of any faith will resurrect to life eternal?....
     
  15. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassador

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    Those were radical times, back in the days of Keith Green (a Jewish forerunner for the Messianic movement ) and Paul Wilbur who were believers had been slighted/ignored in the churches for way too long. Sadly, in some places, the pendulum switched to the opposite end simply focusing on introducing Jewish believers to Yeshua/relationship with him while seeking to ensure that others come to know who He is. The focus was simple in people bringing others into the reality of Hebraic Christianity/Jewish Christianity and showing what it was like to follow the Messiah in the days of Christ within the Judaism of that time frame...and help others realize the many ways Jewish of trying to denounce all aspects of Christianity as if it was the opposite of being a Jewish/Judaic follower...despite the reality of many Jews still being brought to see the beauty of the Jewish Messiah through Christians /able to connect the dots and the fact that Jews were called Christians and being calld a Christian or a Nazarene or Follower of the Way (1 Peter 4:15-17, Acts 26:27-29 /Acts 26 , Acts 11:25-27.., Acts 22:3-5 , Acts 24:13-15, Acts 24:4-6, etc), be it with the Jews in the Diaspora or the Jews in Jerusalem and others who never went abroad, were all considered as being within a sect of Judaism anyhow rather than seperate from Judaism (and sadly, way too many Jews have been harmed by that just as much as they were harmed by people who didn't like Jewish people).

    Dr.Michael Brown has done alot of good documentation as it concerns Jewish believers coming to Messiah all over the world..and he also did a good review on the subject before in his work (as a Messianic Jew/lover of Judaic thinking) with other Jews who find it hard to believe in Yeshua:



    But that's another issue. The issue of Messianic Judaism is truly a fascinating one that does give much completion on a host of issues and it's something that's always a blessing when people join in with it, living life with Jewish believers in Christ and seeing the heart of Messiah for the world :)
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2012
  16. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassador

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    God Fearers and Noahides are something that often seemed to be brought up in regards to what the rabbinical ones expected of Gentiles...
     
  17. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) CF Ambassador

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    Rabbi Paul Liberma ( Executive Director of International Messianic Jewish Alliance ), is truly one amazing man of God. Always loved how he helped others uncovers the Jewish roots of the Christian faith and aided Gentile believers come to a deeper understanding of how the Messiah saw things, as well as helping others within Christianity understand how to connect with Jewish believers/give respect to their role within the body as Messianic Jews globally.:) I respect him for the ways he has helped others stand firm when it comes to having to do battle with others saying that Jews trusting in Christ cannot truly be Judaic or "Jewish" in their view while also having to do battle from other believers assuming all Jewish believers are trying to go back to things that were (in the view ) "old and done" rather than seeing the beauty present in the OT and how it is reflected in Christ in the New Covenant.

    Curious as to whether in your old group you checked out his book entitled The Fig Tree Blossoms: Messianic Judaism Emerges

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2012
  18. Qnts2

    Qnts2 New Member

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    Rabbinic Jews do believe that the Law was given to the Jewish people and not the Gentiles.

    The Noachide laws when they were given were given to all people, and then the children of Israel/Jews were given the Mosaic laws at Mt. Sinai. The Jewish people promised to do all that God commanded at Mt. Sinai for all generations, so all Jewish people are obligated to the Mosaic law. Gentiles are obligated to the Noachide laws. So a righteous Gentile would be a Gentile who observes the Noachide laws. Gentiles are righteous apart from keeping the Mosaic law.

    Rabbinic Judaism does not seek converts.
     
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  19. Chaplain David

    Chaplain David CF Chaplain Staff Member Chaplain Supporter Recovery Team

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    I do not know Pastor Hagin but have heard a lot of good about him.

    What do you think about the slang slogan for Word of Faith that some use who vigorously disagree with the "calling things that be not as though they are" --- that phrase would be "name it, claim it." I have a good friend who is an AG Pastor who told me about that slogan the first time. Is that accurate?
     
  20. yedida

    yedida Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

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    Yep, that is what WoF is basically. Name it and claim it because God said it, he is now obligated to do it. This is good and fine when it's used in context but it's very rare that you will find this concept in context of what is actually written. It's a very dangerous form of manipulation. And it also is not very spiritually healthy for those practicing it.
    What it boils down to is if you get sick and don't get physically healed, one of two things have happened - you don't believe enough or you are not "saved." If you are desiring a new computer, and you don't mysteriously get it or the funds to purchase it, you don't believe enough or you're not saved. I was deeply emmeshed in WoF for about 10 years and can't imagine today how I got sucked into such a thing!!
     
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