Toll House Controversy?

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It was something my priest advised me not to jump into when I was first beginning. Toll houses are in fact mentioned in at least the Orthros services. And I've read frightening "literal" accounts. And a few probably very un-Orthodox things. I never read Seraphim Rose specifically on it, in obedience to my priest (who might allow it now, I just haven't asked again).

I think the take-away is that we know a sort of judging of the soul occurs after death, that isn't THE judgment. THE judgment comes at the end of the present age, but if those who die are not merely unconscious (and we don't believe they are) then somehow they must be "sorted" into different experiences after death. Such is even apparent before the Resurrection, in Christ's parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

I won't comment further than that. I think Army Matt said it well.
 
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Cappadocious

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IMO the version we get was an Archontic doctrine that was half-baptized by some Balkans Orthodox monks, after which point it entered the folk beliefs of the populace and was then presented by a couple saints. It's acceptable as a metaphor for the departed coming to terms with what they want and who they are, whether or not they are of the party of God or of the demons. Beyond this, well, it becomes anti-Christian.
 
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RobNJ

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E.C.

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One's opinion of Toll Houses has zero bearing upon one's salvation. It is a deep theological subject which could only be "resolved", IMHO, by somebody who is on a very deep spiritual level and whom God also deems worthy to articulate this matter.
Clearly that has not happened yet :)

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Maybe it's just me, but that whole "in obedience to my priest" thing wore thin on me. My priest had a huge anti-Father Seraphim bias. He encouraged it among newbies and catechumens, and of course the deacon being a consummate suck-up became super opposed to Father Seraphim. They likened his thinking to some cult leader wacko. He told me specifically DO NOT read Father Seraphim's works. Ironically, I found my priest's prohibition of a widely-respected Orthodox monk's books to be read as cult-like! So I read a couple. THEY ARE BRILLIANT! Father Seraphim is extremely patristic, insightful, bright, and holy. I only read two of his books and listened to a bit of his lectures, and I saw nothing of the horror show they make him out to be.

I think when priest's lay down admonitions and prohibitions with that kind of authority, they take over too much of your mind. I am all for obedience, but I think common sense and not checking my brains at the door are a good thing.

Don't let a priest dictate your book list unless you're asking him to read Fifty Shades of Grey! ^_^:p

Father Seraphim helped me so much with evolution and after death understandings. I'm indebted to him for that. Thank goodness I ignored my priest! And we all know how he turned out anyway! He constantly advised me not to gossip, and, well....duh!

These guys are only human. The "spiritual father" aspect of Orthodoxy at first really made sense to me spiritually, but as I saw the HUGE pitfalls with it and the massive human frailty and that this guy half the time is wrong on everything, it gave me pause.

It was something my priest advised me not to jump into when I was first beginning. Toll houses are in fact mentioned in at least the Orthros services. And I've read frightening "literal" accounts. And a few probably very un-Orthodox things. I never read Seraphim Rose specifically on it, in obedience to my priest (who might allow it now, I just haven't asked again).

I think the take-away is that we know a sort of judging of the soul occurs after death, that isn't THE judgment. THE judgment comes at the end of the present age, but if those who die are not merely unconscious (and we don't believe they are) then somehow they must be "sorted" into different experiences after death. Such is even apparent before the Resurrection, in Christ's parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

I won't comment further than that. I think Army Matt said it well.
 
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Kristos

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I was reading about starets Seraphim Rose and I came upon this about toll houses and this somehow was controversial? I mean I hate toll booths too but what's up with this?

It would probably help if instead reading "about" Seraphim Rose - you actually read Seraphim Rose. I find that a lot of what he said is taken out of context by people with an agenda/

What do you mean by "hate toll booths"? I don't understand why such a passionate position should be taken on the subject. I guess, if they really bother you so much, then don't read about them...simple, right?:thumbsup:
 
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RobNJ

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What do you mean by "hate toll booths"? I don't understand why such a passionate position should be taken on the subject. I guess, if they really bother you so much, then don't read about them...simple, right?:thumbsup:


I believe he's referring to earthly toll BOOTHS, where drivers, on certain roads & bridges, have to slow down, and PAY money, to be stuck in traffic. ;)
 
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All4Christ

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gurneyhalleck1 said:
Maybe it's just me, but that whole "in obedience to my priest" thing wore thin on me. My priest had a huge anti-Father Seraphim bias. He encouraged it among newbies and catechumens, and of course the deacon being a consummate suck-up became super opposed to Father Seraphim. They likened his thinking to some cult leader wacko. He told me specifically DO NOT read Father Seraphim's works. Ironically, I found my priest's prohibition of a widely-respected Orthodox monk's books to be read as cult-like! So I read a couple. THEY ARE BRILLIANT! Father Seraphim is extremely patristic, insightful, bright, and holy. I only read two of his books and listened to a bit of his lectures, and I saw nothing of the horror show they make him out to be. I think when priest's lay down admonitions and prohibitions with that kind of authority, they take over too much of your mind. I am all for obedience, but I think common sense and not checking my brains at the door are a good thing. Don't let a priest dictate your book list unless you're asking him to read Fifty Shades of Grey! ^_^:p Father Seraphim helped me so much with evolution and after death understandings. I'm indebted to him for that. Thank goodness I ignored my priest! And we all know how he turned out anyway! He constantly advised me not to gossip, and, well....duh! These guys are only human. The "spiritual father" aspect of Orthodoxy at first really made sense to me spiritually, but as I saw the HUGE pitfalls with it and the massive human frailty and that this guy half the time is wrong on everything, it gave me pause.

I've had a slightly different experience with recommendations from my priest on books - he suggested that I hold off on reading the divine ladder from St. John Climacus until after I read some books to acquaint me with Orthodox spirituality when I was a catechumen - and I read the layperson's version of it instead until I was a bit more familiar with Orthodoxy. He also held book studies for us to read more difficult books as a group - especially for those new to Orthodoxy. I've read most of them now individually with the original versions - but it is a lot easier to process them at this point than it was when I was starting to 'walk', so to speak, with the Orthodox faith. I'd say, like most things, it is a balance that needs to be found.
 
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I understand you pov, Gurney, and I know your experience has been not at all good, and I'm sorry for that. :(

And I'll admit something to you ... When I first started catechesis, and Father kind of put the brakes on a few things, I chafed a bit under being suggested not to follow up on things I was interested in. I should say that Father never took a heavy-handed approach. He was never overbearing, demanding, etc. but rather cautioned me (sometimes strongly) on a few things. And as someone still involved in a Protestant mindset, I didn't really like it.

But I chose to willingly submit at the time - mostly because I knew that if I approached Orthodoxy in outright rebellion and pride, I would never get a true picture in order to know if I should commit to it or not. So, reluctantly at first, I followed his suggestions. Don't read this yet, forget about hesychasm for a little while, shorten my prayer rule, relax my fasting here, be a little more rigorous there, study this instead.

It didn't take long before I started to see the absolute wisdom in some of his suggestions that I had resented at first. My spiritual progress became much more sane, and I got real benefit. Later I began to learn about some of the potential pitfalls he was trying to spare me.

And it is not a matter of "never do this." In fact, the last time we spoke, he gave me some additional guidance, and told me if I want to go ahead with something a little more advanced now, I have his permission, except he said he would need to place me under someone else's guidance for that exercise, as he wanted someone who could better guide me. So he's not above admitting there are some things he's not maybe experienced enough to guide, and he isn't trying to control me or keep me "under" him.

If his manner were different, I might feel differently.

Regarding Seraphim Rose, Father doesn't "hate" him. He spent about an hour and a half explaining toll houses to us, and some things written about them. He said that Fr. Seraphim's writings were a bit controversial, because they could be easily misunderstood, and were not a good thing for a person brand new to Orthodoxy to read on their own.

I got the impression that Father respects him in general, though I think there are other teachings by Fr. Seraphim that he thought might be problematic for a catechumen as well, so he asked me to wait.

Actually, I have more I want to read than I have time for, and such topics as toll houses and advanced hesychasm really have no place in my immediate concerns anyway. I'm completely caught up in St. Theophan the Recluse on prayer, some of the ascetical texts, and St. Nikolai Velimrovich on kind of Orthodox worldview or philosophy. And pretty much chomping at the bit to get into some others I'm VERY interested in ... but most of it comes down to prayer and spiritual life. It's difficult to pull my interest away from that. :)

But thank you for the warnings. I just wanted to make it clear that, thank God, Father M. isn't at all like that. And when I mention his warnings to anyone else, it's in an attempt only to give helpful suggestions, though I may not take the time to be clear enough about that.

God bless you, my dear brother! :)


Maybe it's just me, but that whole "in obedience to my priest" thing wore thin on me. My priest had a huge anti-Father Seraphim bias. He encouraged it among newbies and catechumens, and of course the deacon being a consummate suck-up became super opposed to Father Seraphim. They likened his thinking to some cult leader wacko. He told me specifically DO NOT read Father Seraphim's works. Ironically, I found my priest's prohibition of a widely-respected Orthodox monk's books to be read as cult-like! So I read a couple. THEY ARE BRILLIANT! Father Seraphim is extremely patristic, insightful, bright, and holy. I only read two of his books and listened to a bit of his lectures, and I saw nothing of the horror show they make him out to be.

I think when priest's lay down admonitions and prohibitions with that kind of authority, they take over too much of your mind. I am all for obedience, but I think common sense and not checking my brains at the door are a good thing.

Don't let a priest dictate your book list unless you're asking him to read Fifty Shades of Grey! ^_^:p

Father Seraphim helped me so much with evolution and after death understandings. I'm indebted to him for that. Thank goodness I ignored my priest! And we all know how he turned out anyway! He constantly advised me not to gossip, and, well....duh!

These guys are only human. The "spiritual father" aspect of Orthodoxy at first really made sense to me spiritually, but as I saw the HUGE pitfalls with it and the massive human frailty and that this guy half the time is wrong on everything, it gave me pause.
 
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It would probably help if instead reading "about" Seraphim Rose - you actually read Seraphim Rose. I find that a lot of what he said is taken out of context by people with an agenda/

What do you mean by "hate toll booths"? I don't understand why such a passionate position should be taken on the subject. I guess, if they really bother you so much, then don't read about them...simple, right?:thumbsup:

I think it's important, when researching spiritual or even secular subjects to also be aware of who that author is and what they stand for in order to weed out conjecture and bias. In the same respect to be aware of the authors authority and mastery of the subject being discussed or presented. While wading my way through these waters I came upon his name and begun looking up his books and him as a person.
 
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indeed. Fr Seraphim is often accused of taking the toll house teaching literally, even though in the intro to his book on the soul after death he says that what he writes is not exhaustive, should not be taken literally, and is not the Church's official dogmatic teaching on what happens during death.
 
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RileyG

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I actually did read The Soul after Death by Fr. Seraphim Rose...I want to read the one about Genesis as well.

I am not even Orthodox. ^_^

(I am just really interested in learning about Orthodoxy- have no clue where to start)
 
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