Toll House Controversy?

[gurneyhalleck1]

After I wrote the last reply with my warning about priest's advice, I kind of did a double-take and thought, "I hope that didn't come on too strong with Kylissa! I hope she doesn't think I'm being a cynical jerk here."

I'm glad you didn't take it that way. Internet tone isn't always easy to ascertain. I meant it from a good place!

I'm glad you have such a wise, calm, sweet priest. I envy you. I got stuck with a New York gossiper and a hiney-kissing deacon who feed off each other. You're so blessed!

I know what you mean about having more books than time! Amen to that!

I understand you pov, Gurney, and I know your experience has been not at all good, and I'm sorry for that.

And I'll admit something to you ... When I first started catechesis, and Father kind of put the brakes on a few things, I chafed a bit under being suggested not to follow up on things I was interested in. I should say that Father never took a heavy-handed approach. He was never overbearing, demanding, etc. but rather cautioned me (sometimes strongly) on a few things. And as someone still involved in a Protestant mindset, I didn't really like it.

But I chose to willingly submit at the time - mostly because I knew that if I approached Orthodoxy in outright rebellion and pride, I would never get a true picture in order to know if I should commit to it or not. So, reluctantly at first, I followed his suggestions. Don't read this yet, forget about hesychasm for a little while, shorten my prayer rule, relax my fasting here, be a little more rigorous there, study this instead.

It didn't take long before I started to see the absolute wisdom in some of his suggestions that I had resented at first. My spiritual progress became much more sane, and I got real benefit. Later I began to learn about some of the potential pitfalls he was trying to spare me.

And it is not a matter of "never do this." In fact, the last time we spoke, he gave me some additional guidance, and told me if I want to go ahead with something a little more advanced now, I have his permission, except he said he would need to place me under someone else's guidance for that exercise, as he wanted someone who could better guide me. So he's not above admitting there are some things he's not maybe experienced enough to guide, and he isn't trying to control me or keep me "under" him.

If his manner were different, I might feel differently.

Regarding Seraphim Rose, Father doesn't "hate" him. He spent about an hour and a half explaining toll houses to us, and some things written about them. He said that Fr. Seraphim's writings were a bit controversial, because they could be easily misunderstood, and were not a good thing for a person brand new to Orthodoxy to read on their own.

I got the impression that Father respects him in general, though I think there are other teachings by Fr. Seraphim that he thought might be problematic for a catechumen as well, so he asked me to wait.

Actually, I have more I want to read than I have time for, and such topics as toll houses and advanced hesychasm really have no place in my immediate concerns anyway. I'm completely caught up in St. Theophan the Recluse on prayer, some of the ascetical texts, and St. Nikolai Velimrovich on kind of Orthodox worldview or philosophy. And pretty much chomping at the bit to get into some others I'm VERY interested in ... but most of it comes down to prayer and spiritual life. It's difficult to pull my interest away from that.

But thank you for the warnings. I just wanted to make it clear that, thank God, Father M. isn't at all like that. And when I mention his warnings to anyone else, it's in an attempt only to give helpful suggestions, though I may not take the time to be clear enough about that.

God bless you, my dear brother!

 

[All4Christ]

I was thinking this thread was going to be about Toll House cookies.

I've been waiting to hear something about them! Haven't had any of those for awhile!

 

[~Anastasia~]

After I wrote the last reply with my warning about priest's advice, I kind of did a double-take and thought, "I hope that didn't come on too strong with Kylissa! I hope she doesn't think I'm being a cynical jerk here."

I'm glad you didn't take it that way. Internet tone isn't always easy to ascertain. I meant it from a good place!

I'm glad you have such a wise, calm, sweet priest. I envy you. I got stuck with a New York gossiper and a hiney-kissing deacon who feed off each other. You're so blessed!

I know what you mean about having more books than time! Amen to that!

Nope, Gurney, we are fine. . I know you meant it as a caution, because you've been burned, and I'm sorry for that. I trust that God will use it to guide you into something good for your soul, though those bumpy rides certainly are not fun!

My prayers are with you. And thank you for your kindness in intending to spare me, and taking the time to follow up as well. God bless you and your family, my dear brother!


Eta: you are right that I couldn't be more blessed with a better priest! FWIW, I may see why I wasn't led to Orthodoxy sooner, because the priest that used to be here has a reputation for being ... well he sounds downright mean. People are just now coming back to Church after years spent away. And there was a bitter schism of the Church some years ago too. I don't like to hear of such things, but I am thankful I didn't wander in in the middle of any of that, as I likely would not have been strong enough to handle it and recover.

 

[GregConstantine]

I can understand why a priest may tell a newbie not to read Fr Seraphim, at least not right away, perhaps later after being Orthodox for a few years.

However, there is a cultish following of Fr Seraphim that is unhealthy that I've seen amongst some converts from protestantism.

It leads them to a very strange approach to the Fathers and to Scriptures that is not Orthodox and is def not what Fr Seraphim advocates either.

It is very strange to to me, this cultish following of fr Seraphim. I've read his books and did not get on this Fr Seraphim kick that some others do.

Some like to talk about nothing but Fr Seraphim and quote him all the time.

 

[jckstraw72]

on the other hand, some people spend more time talking about how much people talk about Fr. Seraphim, than people do talking about Fr. Seraphim!

 

[Wryetui]

But, after all, is this a dogma of our faith or just something possibly/likely to be true? I have read just a little bit about it and I can't say I'm pretty well informed about.

 

[Cappadocious]

Typically it goes like this:

A: "Our Starez Fr. Seraphim taught xyz."
B: "Really?"
A: "Yes."
B: "If that's the case, then he's wrong."
A: "You have no phronema."

 

[All4Christ]

But, after all, is this a dogma of our faith or just something possibly/likely to be true? I have read just a little bit about it and I can't say I'm pretty well informed about.

I've been told that the exact specifics are not dogma...and implied that toll houses in general are not dogma but generally accepted (after all, it is in some of the liturgical texts and hymns). That's not implying however that toll houses are tone literally interpreted. Literal interpretation is definitely not dogma.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I've been told that the exact specifics are not dogma...and implied that toll houses in general are not dogma but generally accepted (after all, it is in some of the liturgical texts and hymns). That's not implying however that toll houses are tone literally interpreted. Literal interpretation is definitely not dogma.

I have to admit, while a catechumen I ran across a lengthy, detailed, and presented-as-literal account. It scared me!

 

[Cappadocious]

Well, in the Theodora account, the Grim Reaper comes and cuts her soul into pieces after she dies.

So let us heed the words of Method Man:

"When Death calls, I'm good; I got call I.D."

 

[All4Christ]

I have to admit, while a catechumen I ran across a lengthy, detailed, and presented-as-literal account. It scared me!

I tended to avoid the literal and / or detailed accounts as a catechumen. I pretty much went by the philosophy of being as ready as possible for whatever happens upon our departure from this world! The detailed accounts of things like that seem to be unlike the normal mystery / acknowledgement of not knowing the exact how / why type of interpretation Orthodoxy normally has with our sacraments, etc. I've read more of it now, but don't particularly feel that it is beneficial to focus on the detailed accounts of toll houses. There are so many other things to focus on with our salvation beyond that. Maybe I'm being naive, but it has been a good approach for me so far.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I've been told that the exact specifics are not dogma...and implied that toll houses in general are not dogma but generally accepted (after all, it is in some of the liturgical texts and hymns). That's not implying however that toll houses are tone literally interpreted. Literal interpretation is definitely not dogma.

indeed, a literal interpretation is problematic and often borders on some kind of purgatory sounding nonsense. most folks I have found who say this are the ones who try to discount the toll houses. every single person I have spoken to or read (even Fr Seraphim) who affirms them says they are not to be taken literally.

 

[SeventhValley]

Why even bother with "toll houses" seems like a waste of time. Just say spiritual battles go on even a bit after death. No need to speculate.

 

[jckstraw72]

well, its not speculation - Saints have seen this stuff happening.

 

[Wryetui]

And it's important to believe the Saints because God gifted them with prophecies and visions due to their life given entirely to Christ and their highly advanced state of prayer. If they can't make statements about God I don't know who can.

 

[jckstraw72]

And it's important to believe the Saints because God gifted them with prophecies and visions due to their life given entirely to Christ and their highly advanced state of prayer. If they can't make statements about God I don't know who can.

precisely!

 

[~Anastasia~]

I tended to avoid the literal and / or detailed accounts as a catechumen. I pretty much went by the philosophy of being as ready as possible for whatever happens upon our departure from this world! The detailed accounts of things like that seem to be unlike the normal mystery / acknowledgement of not knowing the exact how / why type of interpretation Orthodoxy normally has with our sacraments, etc. I've read more of it now, but don't particularly feel that it is beneficial to focus on the detailed accounts of toll houses. There are so many other things to focus on with our salvation beyond that. Maybe I'm being naive, but it has been a good approach for me so far.

Agreed, and I'm glad you qualified that.

As a catechumen, I admit I was pretty much interested in and curious about everything, and could have my attention diverted more easily. Maybe that was good, to a degree, to find things out. Maybe it just fed into pride, wanting to possess knowledge.

But as you say, there are other things more focused on our salvation. I still do a very small amount of reading on other things when necessary, but for the most part I can't seem to get interested in much outside of what I've been focusing on for a few months now, which is mostly prayer - and keeps looping back and intertwining with repentance, humility, and love. I doubt the rest of my life would be sufficient to completely plumb the depths on that.

So no, toll houses aren't something I much concern myself with right now.

 

[ArmyMatt]

it's also in our prayers and services. as we pray, so we believe.

 

[Lukaris]

Tone II. Woe is me! What manner of ordeal doth the soul endure when it is parted from the
body! Woe is me! How many then are its tears, and there is none to show compassion! Turning
its eyes to the angels, it supplicates in vain; stretching out its hands to men, it findeth none to
succour. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, meditating on the brevity of our life, let us beseech of
Christ rest for him who hath departed hence; and for our souls great mercy.

from the funeral service of the Antiochian Orthodox Church

troparia (Idiomela), by St. John of Damascus,


http://www.antiochian.org/sites/default/files/sacred_music/Funeral-chant-complete.pdf


From what I understand, within the Antiochian OC, there are no toll houses conceived of for the departed. There are no toll houses in St. John of Damascus' 8th c. Exposition of the Orthodox Faith. There is hymnography referred to as the Octoechos attributed to St. John of Damascus but his authorship of many passages is doubted: Hagiopolitan Octoechos - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The late Metr. Philip seemed to consider this teaching foreign to those of us within the Antiochian Church:
http://constans_wright.tripod.com/officialnotolls.jpg

There is also a tradition stating that the Mother of God prayed to avoid the toll houses. Yet, in the homilies of St. John of Dasmascus on the Dormition, there is no mention: Balamand Monastery - St. John of Damascus' Three Sermons on the Dormition Feast.

Clearly, the toll house teaching is a literal one by its advocates:

Life After Death: A Homily by St. John the Wonderworker

Clearly, it is not commonly held but respect must be maintained for those who follow this & those who do not.

 

[jckstraw72]

Lukaris, but what do you mean that they are literal in the homily of St. John? yes, something is literally happening - its a literal occurrence - but there's no literal booths, exchanging of money, scales, etc. but there are real demonic accusations.