Time as a Human Artifact, Eternity as Divine

[SkyWriting]

My experience in reality seems to say differently.

God CAN touch us through our perceptions. Just not Physically.
Our physical world can be effected to the extent that reality allows.
People can heal amazingly as God heals their Spirit.
But humans physically are not capable of growing new limbs
so even the best healers can't accomplish that.

I have personally experienced physical translation (i.e. being in one place one moment, being in another place the next). I've also witnessed physical things disappear (big things, like vehicles). I've seen physical manifestations, such as a face begin to transform (arguably this was not the Holy Spirit), I've seen disease and other physical afflictions form which arguably were caused by spirits, and I've seen the physical body react to the presence of the Holy Spirit, I've seen paranormal manifestations that resemble "lightening" form and hover and effect a person in the environment quite violently. I've also witnessed animals and weather respond to spiritual influence in dramatic ways.My conclusions would be that either the spiritual realm is part of the foundation of the physical realm, or it is one and the same as the physical realm, or if it IS separate ... it is not only able to influence the known universe, it is arguably interacting with the known universe on the same playing field, so to speak.If you take scripture into account, the entire known universe came forth from God's command. All things have their being through and in Christ. Thus, I could take that to further the idea that the physical realm isn't separate from the spiritual, rather it is either the result of the spiritual or the spiritual is again part of it's foundation. I'm assuming you are NOT saying that spirits aren't "things", so I won't go there. I'd be interested in hearing more specifics as to why you think the (and I'm paraphrasing), the spiritual realm is entirely separate from the physical. Talk of your experiments if you'd like, for example. It's a question I've been pondering for some time now ... whether or not the spiritual is part of the foundation of the physical, entangled with it, or separate from it and one simply influences the other, etc. And I'm talking specifics, not generalities.

It may reflect the spiritual realm. But it is not influenced by it.
But YOU may well be influenced by it.

An illustration may be a non-fiction story I heard as part of my born again process.

A Christian on a quest, led by the Holy Spirit, wading through waist deep snow in a blizzard storm, came to a river in the black of night. The man saw no way forward so he prayed for God's will to be done.

A boatman from the other side appeared among the ice floes to pick him up so he could cross. Did God create this miracle? Yes, the man was awakened an hour earlier by the Holy Spirit (his opinion) and he just "knew" he was needed at the river.

The Spirit world is only connected to us by Spirit. This world is corrupt and imperfect. This is not God's realm.

 

[TillICollapse]

God CAN touch us through our perceptions. Just not Physically.
Our physical world can be effected to the extent that reality allows.
People can heal amazingly as God heals their Spirit.
But humans physically are not capable of growing new limbs
so even the best healers can't accomplish that.



It may reflect the spiritual realm. But it is not influenced by it.
But YOU may well be influenced by it.

An illustration may be a non-fiction story I heard as part of my born again process.

A Christian on a quest, led by the Holy Spirit, wading through waist deep snow in a blizzard storm, came to a river in the black of night. The man saw no way forward so he prayed for God's will to be done.

A boatman from the other side appeared among the ice floes to pick him up so he could cross. Did God create this miracle? Yes, the man was awakened an hour earlier by the Holy Spirit (his opinion) and he just "knew" he was needed at the river.

The Spirit world is only connected to us by Spirit. This world is corrupt and imperfect. This is not God's realm.

I suppose I'll disagree. I've seen physical things disappear completely, including people, as well as seeing people have direct physical reactions to seemingly spiritual phenomena. These are physical things taking place.

 

[SkyWriting]

I suppose I'll disagree. I've seen physical things disappear completely, including people, as well as seeing people have direct physical reactions to seemingly spiritual phenomena. These are physical things taking place.

So it seems to you.
Reality is totally constructed by your mind. See "Brain Games" on TV.

We've constructed checks and balances through the scientific method to minimize the effect of individual experiences.
If you can document your experiences, and a critical analysis by a third party can reproduce the effect, then we
call that "real". I've experienced "miracles" direct from God myself. But it was God manipulating my perceptions,
to present me with answers to my prayers, not changing reality in a way that others could document.

 

[TillICollapse]

So it seems to you.
Reality is totally constructed by your mind. See "Brain Games" on TV.

We've constructed checks and balances through the scientific method to minimize the effect of individual experiences.
If you can document your experiences, and a critical analysis by a third party can reproduce the effect, then we
call that "real". I've experienced "miracles" direct from God myself. But it was God manipulating my perceptions,
to present me with answers to my prayers, not changing reality in a way that others could document.

Yes I've had third parties present. As far as a third party reproducing the effect, yes, in context. They weren't just "grabbed off the street" either, however, some were biased to disbelieve, which made the effect more substantial (if you'd want to call it an "effect"). I'd have to think of a decent example though.

As far as reality being a construct by one's mind ... that argument largely leads to solipsism which I find not very practical, and "no point arguing" against. If a person thinks they are nothing more than a brain in a jar, well .... I assume you're still going to attempt to eat food, go to the bathroom, hold your breath underwater, etc.

Of course we use our brains to translate data, however ... I'm not arguing against that. But essentially saying that all of reality is an illusion ... again, okay, but on a practical level one still eats, sleeps, etc and so forth.

 

[SkyWriting]

Yes I've had third parties present. As far as a third party reproducing the effect, yes, in context. They weren't just "grabbed off the street" either, however, some were biased to disbelieve, which made the effect more substantial (if you'd want to call it an "effect"). I'd have to think of a decent example though.As far as reality being a construct by one's mind ... that argument largely leads to solipsism which I find not very practical, and "no point arguing" against. If a person thinks they are nothing more than a brain in a jar, well .... I assume you're still going to attempt to eat food, go to the bathroom, hold your breath underwater, etc.Of course we use our brains to translate data, however ... I'm not arguing against that. But essentially saying that all of reality is an illusion ... again, okay, but on a practical level one still eats, sleeps, etc and so forth.

My point being that some people eat baked chicken from a silver platter in their mansion, and may even have a guest enjoying the meal as well, when the rest of us may see two homeless people sitting in a dumpster in back of a Boston Chicken. So far, I've not come to the conclusion that I am the only real entity in the universe, so I can't follow your reasoning there.

As for all reality being an illusion, a few episodes of 'Brain Games" will shed some light on that idea. Did you know we view the world upside down and backwards on our retina and our brain imagines everything to be right side up?

In order to test the theory a man wore glasses to flip the image right side up. After a few days, his view of the world was normalized and he could walk again proving that the un-verted image was not hard wired.

Our brains construct everything. When my wife asked her blind from birth student how he did calculus so easily, he said he could see the mathematical slopes.

 

[TillICollapse]

My point being that some people eat baked chicken from a silver platter in their mansion, and may even have a guest enjoying the meal as well, when the rest of us may see two homeless people sitting in a dumpster in back of a Boston Chicken. So far, I've not come to the conclusion that I am the only real entity in the universe, so I can't follow your reasoning there.

Not trying to be rude, but I have no idea what this part of your post has to do with mine. If you're addressing the solipsism point I made ... I was responding to the "reality is totally constructed by your mind" comment (which I realize was also a link, but I also thought it was a statement you were throwing out there as a point). If reality is merely a construct of my mind, then the end of that train of thought often ends in solipsism. One question leads to another, which leads to another, and you eventually get the, "How do I know I'm not the only person in the universe, or just some brain in a jar dreaming all of this ?" etc. So, that was why I threw the solipsism stuff out there.

As for all reality being an illusion, a few episodes of 'Brain Games" will shed some light on that idea. Did you know we view the world upside down and backwards on our retina and our brain imagines everything to be right side up?

In order to test the theory a man wore glasses to flip the image right side up. After a few days, his view of the world was normalized and he could walk again proving that the un-verted image was not hard wired.

Our brains construct everything. When my wife asked her blind from birth student how he did calculus so easily, he said he could see the mathematical slopes.

Saying that our brains interpret reality differently ... verses reality being a construct of our brains ... are saying two different things lol. I thought you were saying that reality was basically the result of our brains imagining it. Perhaps you weren't saying that ?

And yes, our brains can interpret our environment and construct it for us to understand it in a variety of ways. See: synesthesia, for example. And concerning the "upside down" image which our brain flips right side up ... did you know that a baby doesn't flip this image right side up at first ? Their first glimpses are of an upside down world as well In a similar way as your man-with-glasses brain adapts, a baby does the same thing.

But that doesn't mean that the street the guy was walking on wasn't real, or that the glasses on his face weren't real. I thought you were saying that basically "reality was all in our heads", which I was saying leads to solipsism. If you weren't saying that, then I misunderstood that sentence

Having said all of that ... if you are still claiming that supernatural or spiritual phenomena that we can PHYSICALLY interact with is an illusion brought about by the manipulation of our senses only and that the phenomena isn't really *there* ... it still sort of leads to a non-practical place. One could claim that President Obama wasn't really there ... that billions of people were having their senses manipulated. That chicken doesn't exist. It's just a manipulation of our senses, including our metabolism. "The cake is a lie."

If that's the case ... then how do I know that YOU exist ? How do I know I'm not just .... wait for it .... the only person that exists ? Or a head in a jar dreaming all of this and being manipulated ? So I can still see where this line of thinking ends in solipsism.

 

[SkyWriting]

Not trying to be rude, but I have no idea what this part of your post has to do with mine. If you're addressing the solipsism point I made ... I was responding to the "reality is totally constructed by your mind" comment (which I realize was also a link, but I also thought it was a statement you were throwing out there as a point). If reality is merely a construct of my mind, then the end of that train of thought often ends in solipsism. One question leads to another, which leads to another, and you eventually get the, "How do I know I'm not the only person in the universe, or just some brain in a jar dreaming all of this ?" etc. So, that was why I threw the solipsism stuff out there.

In a skull shaped jar, but otherwise correct. You're making it up as you go. Clearly your reality is different from mine. We have different opinions. Different realities.

Saying that our brains interpret reality differently ... verses reality being a construct of our brains ... are saying two different things lol. I thought you were saying that reality was basically the result of our brains imagining it. Perhaps you weren't saying that ?

Reality is what our brains imagine it to be. Michael Phelps won the gold medal relay with his goggles filled with water. That was accomplished for our benefit because he had already won the race in his imagination...with goggles...filled with water.

And yes, our brains can interpret our environment and construct it for us to understand it in a variety of ways. See: synesthesia, for example. And concerning the "upside down" image which our brain flips right side up ... did you know that a baby doesn't flip this image right side up at first ? Their first glimpses are of an upside down world as well In a similar way as your man-with-glasses brain adapts, a baby does the same thing.

But that doesn't mean that the street the guy was walking on wasn't real, or that the glasses on his face weren't real. I thought you were saying that basically "reality was all in our heads", which I was saying leads to solipsism. If you weren't saying that, then I misunderstood that sentence

Brain researchers have determined that the results of experiences are the same whether that have external or internal sources.

Having said all of that ... if you are still claiming that supernatural or spiritual phenomena that we can PHYSICALLY interact with is an illusion brought about by the manipulation of our senses only and that the phenomena isn't really *there* ... it still sort of leads to a non-practical place. One could claim that President Obama wasn't really there ... that billions of people were having their senses manipulated. That chicken doesn't exist. It's just a manipulation of our senses, including our metabolism. "The cake is a lie."

You can't physically interact with spiritual phenomenon. Spiritual is not physical. But you mind can be under the influence from spiritual sources and you would not know the difference. As stated above, the imagination has the same patterns as outside influence.

If that's the case ... then how do I know that YOU exist ? How do I know I'm not just .... wait for it .... the only person that exists ? Or a head in a jar dreaming all of this and being manipulated ? So I can still see where this line of thinking ends in solipsism.

Just because you are drawn to the concept like a rubber band, does't mean it the logical path. There are many lines of research that lead to the idea that all of reality is constructed by the mind. I've never heard the single entity conclusion before though.

Debating the Meaning of Quantum Mechanics - The Nature of Reality

LiveLeak.com - Quantum Physics: Physical Reality Is An Illusion

What is Reality?

 

[TillICollapse]

In a skull shaped jar, but otherwise correct. You're making it up as you go.



Reality is what our brains imagine it to be. Michael Phelps won the gold medal relay with his goggles filled with water. That was accomplished for our benefit because he had already won the race in his imagination...with goggles...filled with water.



Brain researchers have determined that the results of experiences are the same whether that have external or internal sources.



You can't physically interact with spiritual phenomenon. Spiritual is not physical. But you mind can be under the influence from spiritual sources and you would not know the difference. As stated above, the imagination has the same patterns as outside influence.



Just because you are drawn to the concept like a rubber band, does't mean it the logical path. There are many lines of research that lead to the idea that all of reality is constructed by the mind. I've never heard the single entity conclusion before though.

Debating the Meaning of Quantum Mechanics - The Nature of Reality

LiveLeak.com - Quantum Physics: Physical Reality Is An Illusion

What is Reality?

Sorry dude, at this point in time I just don't see the benefit to solipsism as a world view. And I even can't stand using that word because it sounds like a person is drooling on themselves when they say it lol

 

[freedomissacred]

This is going to sound insane ... but I had this theory at one time that God's "timeline" is linear, if:

* You connect the dots of the important moments in history where God marks those moments.
* AND you allow for the idea that history with God "begins in the middle", not necessarily at the beginning of "the universe as we know it".

The common question is, "If God created everything, then where did God Himself come from ?" ... and if you allow for the middle to dictate that, then when Jesus was born, that was the beginning. Not our beginning, but HIS.

If you let that sink in, and look at the ramifications of what that means ... it makes sense of some things. But I let go of that theory, it seemed to far fetched, and not a lot of scriptural support to be honest. Almost too radical

It is not necessary to see this "finger-poking" of God as being linear. A hologram is three-dimensional and I envision this Divine activity as also happening in at least a three-dimensional space, not a one-dimensional line.

I like your concept of Jesus as the beginning and I think that is exactly what John was saying in his passage "In the beginning was the Word..."

It is not so much a "theory" as a way of envisioning God and the universe simultaneously, or at least as nearly as humanly possible.