Time as a Human Artifact, Eternity as Divine

[freedomissacred]

I find most creation/evolution discussions unsatisfying because they all seem to rest on a fallacy regardless of which side one is on.

That fallacy is that "time" as we know it is a constant reality in the universe. (TAWKI = years measured in 365.25 days)

First of all, God exists outside Time, or He does not exist at all. Secondly, Earthly time is limited to the period described in Genesis as including the "separation" of light from day and also the formation of matter (planetary solid), and as we know, if the Earth speeds up or slows down in its rotations and solar revolutions, then so does our sense-measurement of Time.

So I have found myself meditating on this deep mystery of Creation, and it explains a great deal of otherwise difficult material in Scripture.

For example, John's description of "the Word" in the Beginning and then his descriptions of events in the End Times, in Revelation, and the problem of Christ's eternal life coupled with His Return...

Obviously, a born-again Christian cannot have a relation with Christ if we are waiting for Him to return, since He would have to be not-here, yet we know He is here.

Soooo..... that false conflict in Christian belief is false only insofar as one believes time to be a linear reality and not a human construct.

Time itself is a holographic Divine construct which we humans can see only through our limited dimensions in a linear fashion....

Uh,, is anyone still awake out there?

Hmmmm.... ty if you read this post! *LOL*

siggie: My God is a Forgiving God!

 

[juvenissun]

I find most creation/evolution discussions unsatisfying because they all seem to rest on a fallacy regardless of which side one is on.

That fallacy is that "time" as we know it is a constant reality in the universe. (TAWKI = years measured in 365.25 days)

First of all, God exists outside Time, or He does not exist at all. Secondly, Earthly time is limited to the period described in Genesis as including the "separation" of light from day and also the formation of matter (planetary solid), and as we know, if the Earth speeds up or slows down in its rotations and solar revolutions, then so does our sense-measurement of Time.

So I have found myself meditating on this deep mystery of Creation, and it explains a great deal of otherwise difficult material in Scripture.

For example, John's description of "the Word" in the Beginning and then his descriptions of events in the End Times, in Revelation, and the problem of Christ's eternal life coupled with His Return...

Obviously, a born-again Christian cannot have a relation with Christ if we are waiting for Him to return, since He would have to be not-here, yet we know He is here.

Soooo..... that false conflict in Christian belief is false only insofar as one believes time to be a linear reality and not a human construct.

Time itself is a holographic Divine construct which we humans can see only through our limited dimensions in a linear fashion....

Uh,, is anyone still awake out there?

Hmmmm.... ty if you read this post! *LOL*

siggie: My God is a Forgiving God!

I am reading. And your view is quite refreshing. You looked at the scientific aspect of time from a Biblical point of view. Very good. Thank you.

May God give you more insight of time. And please do not forget to tell us about it.

 

[gluadys]

I find most creation/evolution discussions unsatisfying because they all seem to rest on a fallacy regardless of which side one is on.

That fallacy is that "time" as we know it is a constant reality in the universe. (TAWKI = years measured in 365.25 days)

Not since Einstein. Time slows down as one approaches the speed of light--basic consequence of relativity.


Not on other planets. A year is the time it takes for a planet to complete one orbit around its star. The number of days in a year is that time divided by rotational speed. How many times during one orbit does a fixed location on the planet pass directly under its star? Mars rotates slightly more slowly than Earth, so its days are slightly longer. But its orbit time is nearly double that of Earth so the number of Martian days in a Martian year is nearly double that on Earth. By contrast, Mercury rotates very slowly while its orbiting period is much less than ours. In fact, its year is shorter than its day.


And not even on this one in the past. Whatever the layperson assumes, scientists have known for sometime that in the past, the earth's diurnal rotation was faster, making the days shorter. Some 400 million years ago Earth days were only 22 hours long and the farther one goes back the shorter they were. Years were about the same length though, so there were more days in a year.

 

[SkyWriting]

I find most creation/evolution discussions unsatisfying because they all seem to rest on a fallacy regardless of which side one is on. That fallacy is that "time" as we know it is a constant reality in the universe. (TAWKI = years measured in 365.25 days)First of all, God exists outside Time,

Yup. You figured it out. Got can create the universe in 7 days and it can be as old as dirt as well.
Think about "The Garden" in the seven-day story. Now think about what dirt consists of.

 

[juvenissun]

Yup. You figured it out. Got can create the universe in 7 days and it can be as old as dirt as well.
Think about "The Garden" in the seven-day story. Now think about what dirt consists of.

I think the set up of the Garden is later than the 7-Day creation. Or is it on the 7th Day?

 

[TillICollapse]

I find most creation/evolution discussions unsatisfying because they all seem to rest on a fallacy regardless of which side one is on.

That fallacy is that "time" as we know it is a constant reality in the universe. (TAWKI = years measured in 365.25 days)

First of all, God exists outside Time, or He does not exist at all. Secondly, Earthly time is limited to the period described in Genesis as including the "separation" of light from day and also the formation of matter (planetary solid), and as we know, if the Earth speeds up or slows down in its rotations and solar revolutions, then so does our sense-measurement of Time.

So I have found myself meditating on this deep mystery of Creation, and it explains a great deal of otherwise difficult material in Scripture.

For example, John's description of "the Word" in the Beginning and then his descriptions of events in the End Times, in Revelation, and the problem of Christ's eternal life coupled with His Return...

Obviously, a born-again Christian cannot have a relation with Christ if we are waiting for Him to return, since He would have to be not-here, yet we know He is here.

Soooo..... that false conflict in Christian belief is false only insofar as one believes time to be a linear reality and not a human construct.

Time itself is a holographic Divine construct which we humans can see only through our limited dimensions in a linear fashion....

Uh,, is anyone still awake out there?

Hmmmm.... ty if you read this post! *LOL*

siggie: My God is a Forgiving God!

Bolding mine.

First of all, to say that God exists outside of time doesn't take into account reality. If He can interact with our reality and influence events within our history, then He is arguably not outside of it.

I think one of the issues is CAUSALITY. I would theorize that it's not that God is "outside time", rather He is able to access other causalities, while still interacting with "ours".

To explain:

The way we understand causality, is that on a classical scale (non quantum), causality is not broken ... one event leads to another event, leading to another event, leading to another event, etc. Understanding causality is extremely important to how we understand classical laws of physics, and history, etc. The reason being, is that cause and effect are in a dance with each other, that if you break one of them ... all bets are off as far as what we understand about laws of physics, etc. For example, if a chair with a dinosaur can appear and disappear out of nowhere at your local Starbucks one day, this could be evidence that we do not live in a continual chain of causal events. Standard assumptions about "laws of physics" are no longer laws if chairs with dinosaurs on them can appear from seemingly nowhere.

In the example of the dinosaur on the chair appearing out of nowhere however, we have a dilemma as it concerns causality. Suppose that happened ... you're at a local Starbucks, and such a thing happens. Two theories: One theory could be, that this dinosaur's origin was in a DIFFERENT causality. A causality taking place somewhere else. Another dimension, another universe, etc. A universe that had no previous contact or interaction with our own, until the moment that dinosaur appears out of thin air. We now have a dilemma ... because now that the dinosaur has appeared in our Starbucks out of thin air lol, that event is now part of our causality. It may have broken how we view our chain of causality ... but if that dinosaur does indeed hail from another dimension/universe/causality ... our two causalities are now linked, because we share a shared historical event. Our two universes are now connected ... previously, it was only speculation that another universe with it's own causal chain existed. Now it is verified ... and our two are linked. Which begs the question ... if they are linked at this random point now, where this dinosaur appears out of thin air ... have they been one and the same universe/dimension/causality all along ?

So theory two: there is a time loop that we are experiencing, where the dinosaur sitting on the chair appears out of nowhere, because at some point in the past, or future ... it was "sent" to that point in time, or it has it's origin. So to explain the breaks in causality, we understand that we are somehow caught in a time loop with another universe/dimension/etc . Where an event from the future, links up to an event from the past, from what was presumed to be separate realities ... but all along have been one reality which does not appear continuous at all points, but taking into account the WHOLE OF HISTORY ... can account for itself. So it may appear non-continuous at points, but taking into account every single event, is continuous in and of itself since the two are linked at the beginning and end of history, but will not always appear that way in the middle of history.

Which brings me to God, the Kingdom of God, the spirits realms, prophecy, knowledge about future events that have not yet come to pass but appear to be set in stone while other events appear to be "flexible" and have choice within them, etc, the appearance and disappearance of people throughout history (Enoch, Elijah, Jesus, etc), miraculous events which defy physics, the creation of the universe from "nowhere", the Lord saying He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and end ...

I think it makes more sense to say that God and the Kingdom are able to access, or come from, another causality that is LINKED to our own, but not completely separate. Thus, God would not be "outside of time", but from another timeLINE. Another causality, which is playing out with our own, and things are able to manifest from that causality into ours, effecting our history. Most of the time, it appears there is no break in our chain of events in an unusual way ... until someone notices the miraculous, or something that seems to defy physics, etc. I might argue that we are experiencing multiple causalities all the time, and we take for granted that what we view as a single causality is more like several causalities playing out on a single stage, interacting with each other, etc. I may also argue that there is a set point in our future when all causalities (heaven and earth, etc) will be stopped and made into something NEW. New heavens, new earth, new causality (eternity).

 

[freedomissacred]

TillICollapse: For God to exist outside of Time does not mean He cannot interact with it, since it is indeed part of Creation (the original interaction). Think of those "thought experiments" concerning multiple dimensions and the two-dimensional "flat-world". A three-dimensional finger poked into/through the two-dimensional world appears as a circle varying in size as it goes through, from the initial tiny point. We, as three-dimensional beings, exist outside that two-dimensional world yet are capable of not only knowing that it can exist, but also of interacting with it (yet we are still limited to our own three-dimensional world because we cannot truly imagine a flat surface that does not have an infinitesimally tiny thickness)

To say that God comes from "another causality", as you do in your final paragraph, TillICollapse, is to say that the God we worship is a "lesser god" created by yet a greater God..... But that is not what is true of the God we worship, which is indeed the original uncaused-Cause of all that comes after. We are given dominion within a three-dimensional world (aha: a whole 'nuther thread on the Trinity could come of this! *LOL*) but through Christ we are also given access to that Greater dimensional world of Eternity and through the Holy Spirit given ever-greater insight ahead of time into what we may be blessed to attain should we endure in His Grace to the end.

Nothing is new in Eternity.

And thank you all the other responses as well. My own dimension of time in this Internet universe is limited and so I will try to get back to this later

 

[TillICollapse]

And thank you all the other responses as well. My own dimension of time in this Internet universe is limited and so I will try to get back to this later

No worries, "Take your time,"

TillICollapse: For God to exist outside of Time does not mean He cannot interact with it, since it is indeed part of Creation (the original interaction).

But it does mean that He cannot interact with us. I'll explain:

Think of those "thought experiments" concerning multiple dimensions and the two-dimensional "flat-world". A three-dimensional finger poked into/through the two-dimensional world appears as a circle varying in size as it goes through, from the initial tiny point. We, as three-dimensional beings, exist outside that two-dimensional world yet are capable of not only knowing that it can exist, but also of interacting with it (yet we are still limited to our own three-dimensional world because we cannot truly imagine a flat surface that does not have an infinitesimally tiny thickness)

Using your own example, the moment that God pokes his 3d finger into our 2d one .... it doesn't matter if people in the 2d world can recognize God did this or not, or recognize the 3d world for what it is, that part is not relevant to causality .... what matters, is that the moment God poked his finger into our world, he became part of our causality. So He is not separate from it. How do we know He is not separate from it ? Because we have a moment in our causality that we can look at (for those who noticed) and say, "God poked his finger there". By definition, it is part of our history, our causality. Even if no one notices it, it still happened. It's part of our causality lol.

For God to exist outside of it, is to say that He has never had any interaction with it. Then it is merely a theory as to what may exist outside of our causality. But it cannot exist outside of our causality and still interact with ours. The moment it interacts with ours, it is part of ours at that point. If you believe in the accounts of scripture (if nothing else lol) ... then quite clearly God has had interaction with us, and our timeline.

I think the way most people try and relate to the idea of God creating something, is by using our imaginations. Let's say I want to create a world named "Naboo" lol. Well, merely thinking it, I don't bring it forth. There ... I just thought of it. Now look for it ... do you see it anywhere lol ? It will likely not be found anywhere. I think when people think of God creating, they imagine that He thinks of it, then it appears miraculously in some separate dimension.

Whether this is accurate or not, the moment He interacts with what He created, He is part of that dimension's causality at those points He interacted with it, if nothing else.

If He exists outside our causality only ... then we would have no record of Him ever interacting with our causality lol. Even the idea of Him would be just that: an idea. Similar to how we would envision beings from an alternate reality existing. But we do have Him interacting with our timeline and causality. Regardless of whether or not you believe He is "everywhere" or all around us, etc ... plenty of people can witness to interacting with God in history at specific points if nothing else. If we didn't, then we could say if there is a God, He is separate from our time, causality, and therefore, largely irrelevant.

What I was describing with causality is not so much a thought experiment ... as it is the way physics explains causality and existence of a multiverse. The 3d - 2d world thought experiment is interesting, but breaks down at several points because it doesn't equate directly to a holographic universe. Not to throw a million ideas at once into the convo: but a more realistic thought experiment in understanding something "Existing outside of time as we know it" would be Schrodinger's Cat ... because there we have the problem of the quantum world (where the rules of causality are jacked up lol) verses the classical world par excellence. We have the issue of what happens when one type of causality, interacts with another type of causality.

Are you familiar with the double slit experiment ? If not, it will perhaps give you food for thought as to how two different "types" of causality may interact with each other, yet still retain their own qualities, while not being mutually exclusive.

But I digress ...

To say that God comes from "another causality", as you do in your final paragraph, TillICollapse, is to say that the God we worship is a "lesser god" created by yet a greater God..... But that is not what is true of the God we worship, which is indeed the original uncaused-Cause of all that comes after.

It doesn't mean that God is a lesser God created by another God ... God can still be the Creator, even if he comes from another causality. This is one area we would exercise faith, and not sight. Lemme explain:

I don't mean this word in a condescending way, but "look" lol ... this is why causality is important to understand. As far as you know, you began observing since you were born, yes ? Suppose in the next 5 minutes you are taken in the Spirit, and you are now shown the beginning of all things, the beginning when God created everything, etc. You could see with your own eyes what God did, and God would say,"I am the Alpha, I was the First. This is what it looked like."

However, this is still not proof as far as your current perspective in our "we see dimly" point of reference ... it is evidence, not proof. You would still have to take God's word for it, or not. Even standing there witnessing it ... why ? Because you were not there at the beginning at your point in causality lol. Your point in causality began in the "middle" .... here, now. Not at the beginning, nor at the end. So since you began in the middle, and the only One there at the beginning was God ... it would still require your faith to believe God's account. It would still require your faith to believe that some other "god" didn't create God. Causality ... causality causality causality lol. Even if you were shown that YOU, specifically, existed as a concept with God in the beginning, due to your current fleshly/worldly/beginning-in-the-middle frame of reference in history, you would take this on faith, or you wouldn't.

This is one reason the "uncaused cause" argument doesn't hold water with skeptical thinkers. At first glance it's a decent idea, but upon further examination it falls apart. Not only can they say, "Well, this means someone created the uncaused cause from yet another causality. Lets say it was ten turtles that created God, and it was turtles all the way down." Or they could say, "There doesn't need to be a cause.". They can say this, because of our place in causality, whether they lack faith or not.

If you're familiar with a delayed choice quantum eraser, one could argue that the effect preceded the cause before the uncaused cause lol. But let's not go there lol.

So even if you were to magically disappear, and reappear at the beginning of time with a dozen skeptics, atheists, whatever ... who suddenly see for themselves the beginning of all things with God, it would still require faith in God that He is the only One like Him, and that there were none before Him who created Him ... since we were not there before Him to confirm His own testimony. And we were not there before Him, because of our place in causality.

So saying God may hail from a different causality, or be able to interact with our own, doesn't mean he would have been created from another god or that He is "lesser". The faith to believe He created first is the same.

Faith doesn't disappear in the Kingdom. Faith, hope, and love, still remain lol.

dominion within a three-dimensional world (aha: a whole 'nuther thread on the Trinity could come of this! *LOL*) but through Christ we are also given access to that Greater dimensional world of Eternity and through the Holy Spirit given ever-greater insight ahead of time into what we may be blessed to attain should we endure in His Grace to the end.

Nothing is new in Eternity.

I think the disconnect point between what you are saying, and what I am saying, is what it means to effect, or break, our causality as we know it ... and what it implies about causality itself.

As you have time ...

 

[freedomissacred]

Hmm.. @ your last bit: the disconnect point. It is indeed somewhere in the concept of "causality". Now, I think you are implying in your general argument that there is some kind of equal status between an external or "other" causality and our own, which suggests to me that you are using the word "causality" the way I would use the word "universe". But I do not equate Eternity with another causality, or another position from which God can act on this one. It is of an entirely different order than this universe or any other paralell or enveloping one, likewise if you prefer to use the word "causality". There can be many universes, but only one Eternity.

I think the double-slit experiment supports me in this since those two slits are both of a lesser order than the surface which they pierce and are also more or less alike, while the one substance that flows through them (photons or waves of light in most cases) is but one substance whose marks may appear differently to an observer according to the affect of the slits. Beyond supporting my assertion that God exists in an Eternity that is outside "Time" and thus unlimited by it, I think the double-slit experiment is irrelevant.

 

[TillICollapse]

Hmm.. @ your last bit: the disconnect point. It is indeed somewhere in the concept of "causality". Now, I think you are implying in your general argument that there is some kind of equal status between an external or "other" causality and our own, which suggests to me that you are using the word "causality" the way I would use the word "universe".

Another causality may or may not be similar to our own. Causality does not equal "universe" however. Within a universe, breaks in causality could occur, or retrocausality could occur, etc. Another universe is another universe ... the difference being, that another universe has no interaction with our own. If it did, they would have intersecting points of causality and it would be questionable whether or not this "other" universe was even separate from our own in the first place.

Arguably, the problem of when a superposition of states ceases to exist, and wave function collapse occurs (or appears to occur), addresses this very issue.

But I do not equate Eternity with another causality, or another position from which God can act on this one. It is of an entirely different order than this universe or any other paralell or enveloping one, likewise if you prefer to use the word "causality". There can be many universes, but only one Eternity.

I would not equate Eternity with our type of causality either. IMO, the quantum arena s is a decent candidate for "eternity".

I think the double-slit experiment supports me in this since those two slits are both of a lesser order than the surface which they pierce and are also more or less alike, while the one substance that flows through them (photons or waves of light in most cases) is but one substance whose marks may appear differently to an observer according to the affect of the slits.

I'm not sure what you're describing here ... in no way am I trying to make this sound like I'm patronizing you, but I'm guessing you are not understanding the double slit experiment and what it implies or how it works. The interference pattern made by the particles traveling through the slits don't change the way they *look* based on the effect of the slits.

Beyond supporting my assertion that God exists in an Eternity that is outside "Time" and thus unlimited by it, I think the double-slit experiment is irrelevant.

I don't think the double slit experiment is irrelevant if you are going to bring up the idea that things can exist in an eternity that is unlimited by time. The reason I brought up the experiment, is because it is essentially an easy way to demonstrate superposition. If you're not familiar with it ... simply put, superposition is where an object (like an electron) can be in more than two places at the same time, or in more than one state at the same time. An electron can be in front of you, while simultaneously being on the other side of the universe. It can even bump into itself. Imagine yourself running down the street and suddenly bumping into yourself ... or imagine viewing all points in the universe simultaneously. The double slit experiment shows that this is real, not hypothetical. A particle of light, electrons, and other stuff (I believe we have put buckeyballs in a state of superposition) can be "everywhere at once" in other words. This appears to violate causality at first glance, or suggest that things can travel FTL.

Do you believe that God can be in more than one place at the same time ? How about all points at the same time ? Do you believe God can travel faster than light .. or perhaps the speed of light is irrelevant to how "fast" God can travel and experience time ? If so ... superposition might interest you lol.

If you're talking eternity, and not being hindered by "time" ... it sounds like superposition to me That's why I brought up the double slit experiment. Because it is a great example of what some may argue is another "type" of causality taking place, while still interacting with our own and not being mutually exclusive. However, what separates the two is up for debate ... decoherence is a popular candidate.

 

[EternalDragon]

I find most creation/evolution discussions unsatisfying because they all seem to rest on a fallacy regardless of which side one is on.

That fallacy is that "time" as we know it is a constant reality in the universe. (TAWKI = years measured in 365.25 days)

First of all, God exists outside Time, or He does not exist at all. Secondly, Earthly time is limited to the period described in Genesis as including the "separation" of light from day and also the formation of matter (planetary solid), and as we know, if the Earth speeds up or slows down in its rotations and solar revolutions, then so does our sense-measurement of Time.

So I have found myself meditating on this deep mystery of Creation, and it explains a great deal of otherwise difficult material in Scripture.

For example, John's description of "the Word" in the Beginning and then his descriptions of events in the End Times, in Revelation, and the problem of Christ's eternal life coupled with His Return...

Obviously, a born-again Christian cannot have a relation with Christ if we are waiting for Him to return, since He would have to be not-here, yet we know He is here.

Soooo..... that false conflict in Christian belief is false only insofar as one believes time to be a linear reality and not a human construct.

Time itself is a holographic Divine construct which we humans can see only through our limited dimensions in a linear fashion....

Uh,, is anyone still awake out there?

Hmmmm.... ty if you read this post! *LOL*

siggie: My God is a Forgiving God!

God is both outside of time and inside of time. If we only have the concept of time with the sun coming up and going down and people aging, are we really "inside" time or are we in God's domain? Just running down because of sin, which God would not be effected by?

Or less confusing is the fact that God was outside of time, became a human and lived as one of us, so in effect is now in our "time".

Jesus' final return is going to be a physical one. He is still with us through the Holy Spirit which he said he would send until he comes back physically. (John 14:16) So Jesus is still with us in spirit.

 

[freedomissacred]

I think that the fact that many out-of-time experiences, such as the Transfiguration, took place in the same holy places as previous incidents, holds to the idea that maybe in certain places the "finger of God" is actually piercing the fabric of our world.... (I wish I had a fancy computer program that could make a three-dimensional map of places like Mount Sinai and the holy incidents that happened on them!)

 

[TillICollapse]

I think that the fact that many out-of-time experiences, such as the Transfiguration, took place in the same holy places as previous incidents, holds to the idea that maybe in certain places the "finger of God" is actually piercing the fabric of our world.... (I wish I had a fancy computer program that could make a three-dimensional map of places like Mount Sinai and the holy incidents that happened on them!)

This is going to sound insane ... but I had this theory at one time that God's "timeline" is linear, if:

* You connect the dots of the important moments in history where God marks those moments.
* AND you allow for the idea that history with God "begins in the middle", not necessarily at the beginning of "the universe as we know it".

The common question is, "If God created everything, then where did God Himself come from ?" ... and if you allow for the middle to dictate that, then when Jesus was born, that was the beginning. Not our beginning, but HIS.

If you let that sink in, and look at the ramifications of what that means ... it makes sense of some things. But I let go of that theory, it seemed to far fetched, and not a lot of scriptural support to be honest. Almost too radical

 

[SkyWriting]

Bolding mine.

First of all, to say that God exists outside of time doesn't take into account reality. If He can interact with our reality and influence events within our history, then He is arguably not outside of it.

Well, God is Spirit, things are not. My scientific experiments on this show that God is entirely in the Spiritual realm and can cause influence only through the Spirits effect on man.

 

[TillICollapse]

Well, God is Spirit, things are not. My scientific experiments on this show that God is entirely in the Spiritual realm and can cause influence only through the Spirits effect on man.

My experience in reality seems to say differently. I have personally experienced physical translation (i.e. being in one place one moment, being in another place the next). I've also witnessed physical things disappear (big things, like vehicles). I've seen physical manifestations, such as a face begin to transform (arguably this was not the Holy Spirit), I've seen disease and other physical afflictions form which arguably were caused by spirits, and I've seen the physical body react to the presence of the Holy Spirit, I've seen paranormal manifestations that resemble "lightening" form and hover and effect a person in the environment quite violently. I've also witnessed animals and weather respond to spiritual influence in dramatic ways.

My conclusions would be that either the spiritual realm is part of the foundation of the physical realm, or it is one and the same as the physical realm, or if it IS separate ... it is not only able to influence the known universe, it is arguably interacting with the known universe on the same playing field, so to speak.

If you take scripture into account, the entire known universe came forth from God's command. All things have their being through and in Christ. Thus, I could take that to further the idea that the physical realm isn't separate from the spiritual, rather it is either the result of the spiritual or the spiritual is again part of it's foundation.

I'm assuming you are NOT saying that spirits aren't "things", so I won't go there. I'd be interested in hearing more specifics as to why you think the (and I'm paraphrasing), the spiritual realm is entirely separate from the physical. Talk of your experiments if you'd like, for example. It's a question I've been pondering for some time now ... whether or not the spiritual is part of the foundation of the physical, entangled with it, or separate from it and one simply influences the other, etc. And I'm talking specifics, not generalities.

 

[freedomissacred]

This is going to sound insane ... but I had this theory at one time that God's "timeline" is linear, if:

* You connect the dots of the important moments in history where God marks those moments.
* AND you allow for the idea that history with God "begins in the middle", not necessarily at the beginning of "the universe as we know it".

The common question is, "If God created everything, then where did God Himself come from ?" ... and if you allow for the middle to dictate that, then when Jesus was born, that was the beginning. Not our beginning, but HIS.

If you let that sink in, and look at the ramifications of what that means ... it makes sense of some things. But I let go of that theory, it seemed to far fetched, and not a lot of scriptural support to be honest. Almost too radical

wow... gonna have to chew on this for a while. TY . It reminds me of the time, back in the predigital stone age, when I drove taxi in a company of about a dozen drivers in a mountainous region. I used to try to keep all the radio-voices of the other drivers in a mental 3-d map, including mountain elevation, as if we were in a space-craft configuration.

(Of course, I did not tell my passengers I was doing this, *hehehe*...) yet somehow I think it is a mental exercise that I may revive with your concept of God acting from the center-out instead of as humans tend to try to do, from the beginning-forward.

Have you seen the artwork of Charles Gilchrist? His paintings of sacred geometry are very interesting & helped me picture how God acts as a creative force. You can find a lot by googling youtube for his videos of his work-in-progress.

 

[TillICollapse]

wow... gonna have to chew on this for a while. TY .

Yeah the implications are a bit interesting, no ? It's as though, the Spirit of God waited for Himself to be born in our timeline lol, to prevent a time paradox where God never existed and thus we never existed. And when does everything become "One" again ? ... so that the Beginnings of God (the middle), the separate timelines which co exist at the same time, and everything that was created no longer experience the duality ? At the End of the Age, when Jesus hands the Kingdom back over to the Father, so that all things can become One again and God is all-in-all. The middle, and the beginning, and the end, all meet nicely ... paradox resolved, now we can move forward with eternity.

If you want to further chew on something haha ... picture the Two Trees as two separate timelines ... branches of time and all

It reminds me of the time, back in the predigital stone age, when I drove taxi in a company of about a dozen drivers in a mountainous region. I used to try to keep all the radio-voices of the other drivers in a mental 3-d map, including mountain elevation, as if we were in a space-craft configuration.

(Of course, I did not tell my passengers I was doing this, *hehehe*...) yet somehow I think it is a mental exercise that I may revive with your concept of God acting from the center-out instead of as humans tend to try to do, from the beginning-forward.

Pre .... pre ... dij -eh - tuhl ? What is that lol ?

You were a CABBIE ? Gotta love it I love it when the intellectual in the room is the bartender, the cabbie, etc I bet you got some stories

Have you seen the artwork of Charles Gilchrist? His paintings of sacred geometry are very interesting & helped me picture how God acts as a creative force. You can find a lot by googling youtube for his videos of his work-in-progress.

I hadn't seen his stuff ... interesting Although pointing out artwork is often lost on me Not to be a buzzkill. I rarely appreciate it most forms of it But thank you regardless

 

[Lopez 15721]

First of all, God exists outside Time, or He does not exist at all. Secondly, Earthly time is limited to the period described in Genesis as including the "separation" of light from day and also the formation of matter (planetary solid), and as we know, if the Earth speeds up or slows down in its rotations and solar revolutions, then so does our sense-measurement of Time.

that false conflict in Christian belief is false only insofar as one believes time to be a linear reality and not a human construct.

God does exist outside of time but on the same note God must also exist inside of time, or He is then not omnipresent. Jesus is God. And He experienced temporality. As is the same with the Holy Spirit.

Time as being referred to as "linear" only means that time moves in one direction which is forward. For example, when we cook an omelet, we go from getting an egg out of the carton to breaking it open to cooking it in the pan. We can't go back from an omelet to the egg back in the carton. There is that sense of 'time' moving in one forward direction. So, that time is linear does seem like a reality actually, though I don't think that'd mean anything conflicting with a belief in God or His attributes.

 

[freedomissacred]

Well, forgive me for going for only one small part of your post, Til, but I am overwhelmed. I admit you are a lot more sophisticated than I am in all of this. Nevertheless, I do think I understand a glimmer here and there.

Now, how about the part near the end where you mention God being "everywhere at once" and whether I believe God is omnipresent.... Yes, that is an easy belief for me since learning about holograms and how they work. I do believe that God can be described as a conscious hologram, or perhaps a hyper-conscious hologram in both time and space. This would take "time" to be more particle-like than wave-like, and I can accept a particle-nature of Time insofar as it is illustrated in memory experiences, such as the flashbacks a traumatized person can experience as well as other dimensional experiences such as dream-consciousness.

 

[SkyWriting]

I think the set up of the Garden is later than the 7-Day creation. Or is it on the 7th Day?

I don't think we have documentation on that.
Let's assume that there was food grown in dirt
for Adam on the first day he was created.

Not baby formula, but hard food.