Theologumenon regarding Purgatory

[MariaRegina]

An email from: an Orthodox Priest

A theologumenon (legitimate theological opinion) is one thing ... dogma quite another.

Many Orthodox do believe in an intermediate state as a theologumenon so there is no problem with that. Allow me to say though that the Immaculate Conception is more problematic, (we are not talking about Our Lady's purity here .... we all agree with that).

Bishop Kallistos has (rightly) said that the IC would be necessary IF St. Augustine had the correct interpretation on original sin. Since he linked the transmission of original sin to reproduction; purity in the west became a generational / reproductive thing. That is what lies behind IC ... not Our Lady's purity as such - which, as I said, is fine.

To set the record straight. I agree with this.

Lovingly in Christ,
Elizabeth

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Thanks for the post Aria. Very interesting (you will soon be chaced sown with big bats with sharp spikes... but I at least found it interesting hehehe )

One question though... what does this have to do with Purgatory?

 

[MariaRegina]

Since Orthodoxy does not have the doctrine of Purgatory, and there is nothing defined about the afterlife except that heaven or hell await us at the Final Judgment, there exists several different viewpoints on what happens between the time we die and the Final Judgment.

These viewpoints are called private theological opinions. And we Orthodox are plagued with private theological opinions. This is what makes this forum interesting at times, especially when people pontificate on things that aren't defined dogmas.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

I see that... but you OP didn't really tie this in as it was about the IC. I just assumed you mistakenly wrote Purgatory instead of the IC.

 

[MariaRegina]

I see that... but you OP didn't really tie this in as it was about the IC. I just assumed you mistakenly wrote Purgatory instead of the IC.

The priest was referring to both Purgatory and the IC, but he talks about purgatory first. So I chose that topic since the IC always causes friction here. Sometimes tollhouse threads get hot, but lately not.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

ah... speaking of the "intermediary state". I missed that reference. My fault

 

[Servus Iesu]

What is a toll house?

 

[Rilian]

This

 

[Padraig]

This

In the immortal words of Homer Simpson, mmmmm toll house

 

[Rilian]

In the immortal words of Homer Simpson, mmmmm toll house

The most depressing thing is my wife will not make them with walnuts.

That's what you get for shacking up with a heretic I guess.

 

[Servus Iesu]

I love cookies too!

 

[Servus Iesu]

I do have a feeling Aria wasn't referring to good deserts though. What is a tollhouse in Orthodoxy?

 

[Rilian]

I love cookies too!

I don't think there ever would have been a schism if there were just nice, freshly baked cookies available.

That's just my personal theory.

 

[Padraig]

I don't think there ever would have been a schism if there were just nice, freshly baked cookies available.

That's just my personal theory.

and a glass of cold milk

 

[MariaRegina]

Yes, if the pre-schism people would have focused on sensual delights such as toll house cookies and not the fires of the afterlife, we would not have some of the great saints we have today.

 

[Rilian]

I do have a feeling Aria wasn't referring to good deserts though. What is a tollhouse in Orthodoxy?

It is generally, if not universally believed in the Eastern Church that after death the soul wanders before moving to the next stage of its existence. The number usually assigned to this period is 40 days, and a number of services will be held during this time to commemorate and pray for the soul of the reposed.

A theory about what happens during this phase is that the soul passes through a series of toll houses, or telonia in Greek. It is in these toll houses that ones true self is discovered by confronting directly the passions struggled with in this life. This theory has various permutations about what happens, where, and so on. It 's not a doctrine, but passions tend to run high when this topic comes up.

I have a pdf I can post if you're interested that talks about how the soul has been viewed in Eastern thought in regards to the afterlife.

 

[Servus Iesu]

I would like to see the pdf.

 

[Rilian]

Actually, here is a quick background on the modern debate.

The paper, which is long, is here. The Middle State of Souls in Patristic and Byzantine Literature

 

[RobNJ]

Better to stick with the cookies

 

[joyfulthanks]

So wait, let me see if I got this right. After death, you pass through these tollhouses where you're expected to hand over freshly-baked cookies to a bunch of evil spirit tax collectors to get them to let you get through. Is that right?