The Truth About RCC Grace-Works

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Matthan

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I have not responded to your "red herring" question with good reason. It has nothing to do with the OP of this thread. Why have not any of you responded directly to the OP? Most of you have, for the most part, ignored the specific points I raised and instead simply attacked me. Does the RCC NOT call water baptism the "doorway" to salvation? Does the RCC NOT teach that partaking of the sacraments, and doing other good "works", invokes a measure of God's grace?

Matthan
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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They HID the Second Commandment, and they ADDED their own Ninth Commandment. If you feel this action is acceptable to God, then you are one of those I referred to in my post as one who blindly believes your church while ignoring God's real Truth. And by your post you proved everything I stated.

Matthan
Oh nonsense.

There are elevent commands. Some groups compress the first and second into one. Others decide to compress the tenth and eleventh into one.
 
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Tonks

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I have not responded to your "red herring" question with good reason. It has nothing to do with the OP of this thread.

I suppose your post of which I'm seeking an answer to also is outside the bounds of the OP. I only ask as you indicated that "Rome" had somehow corrupted the Decalogue. The slavish adherence to the "proper numbering" of the Commandments by those that hold to Scripture, solely, is quite amusing as neither in Exodus or Deuteronomy are the Commandments numbered - particularly as there are eleven...Tradition creep, I suppose.

Does the RCC NOT call water baptism the "doorway" to salvation?

Properly, Rome acknowledges that Baptism is the "gateway to life in the Spirit" and the gateway to the other Sacraments. The regenerative aspects of Baptism were perfectly prefigured by the beginnings of Christ's ministry when he was Baptized in the Jordan and then commanded us to go make disciples of all nations and to baptize. Through Baptism we are yoked to the Cross. I'd love to hear what you think Christ's baptism in the Jordan actually signified.

Justification was merited for us by Christ's Passion and is granted through Baptism.

Does the RCC NOT teach that partaking of the sacraments, and doing other good "works", invokes a measure of God's grace?

Matthan

I don't think forensic justification has much merit so I have no problem with your statement above principally as I understand the difference between initial, justifying grace and continual sanctifying grace. The way of perfection passes by way of the Cross. No one can merit initial grace but, moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and others the graced necessary to achieve eternal life.

As St. Gregory of Nyssa stated: Christian perfection has but one limit, that of having none.

I understand that you find this wholly unscriptural, corrupt, whatever. I also don't care.
 
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kepha31

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Does the RCC NOT call water baptism the "doorway" to salvation?
I don’t know. I’ve never heard baptism described that way before. I don’t see anything wrong with it. Catholics don’t see salvation as an instant event, but a life-long process, and baptism is part of that process. There is much written about it in the CCC:
http://www.kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/search.cfm
Does the RCC NOT teach that partaking of the sacraments, and doing other good "works", invokes a measure of God's grace?
First, I want to make something clear about “good works”. We believe the same as you do. “Good works” apart from Christ is a waste of time. Got it? So lets not have any of that usual nonsense about salvation by good works. The Catholic Church condemned “salvation by works” 1000 years before the first so-called reformer clenched a fist.

Here is an email debate on the two above questions, you may find it entertaining. http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/bapnworksexchange.html
 
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GorrionGris

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I have not responded to your "red herring" question with good reason. It has nothing to do with the OP of this thread. Why have not any of you responded directly to the OP? Most of you have, for the most part, ignored the specific points I raised and instead simply attacked me. Does the RCC NOT call water baptism the "doorway" to salvation? Does the RCC NOT teach that partaking of the sacraments, and doing other good "works", invokes a measure of God's grace?

Matthan
I told you I do not recognise your presentation as my faith, you can denounce me as a heretic to the Vatican if you want.
 
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united4Peace

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I have read with some amusement a thread on RCC works and their relationship with grace. The truth is that the RCC teaches that a catholic doing the right "works" results in the dispensation of God's grace. Get baptized as an infant (or at any age) and receive some of God's grace. Partake of the other "sacraments" and receive some more grace. Do some charitable work and get a little more grace. Pray the rosary and you get more grace. And, the total objective is to hope that, when you die, you have accumulated enough of God's grace that you can get into heaven. If you haven't, then its purgatory time until a state of absolute purity is reached. Oh, and if you have committed any "mortal" sins along the way that are not "forgiven" by a priest (with appropriate penance, of course), all of that grace is wasted and lost - you go to hell. And, if you believe at any time that you are assurred of salvation, shame on you. That belief is a "mortal" sin (the sin of presumption), and you go to hell.

The RCC teaches that baptism by water leads directly to eternal salvation (it is the doorway to salvation), and that no person who has not been baptized with water in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, can find salvation.

Now, all of that is unscriptural tradition, but it gets worse. According to the RCC, all of God's grace flows through the RCC and is dispensed by the pope (hence you have to be a catholic to maybe find salvation). Vatican II started the term "separated brethren", but that is nothing more than lip service because you have to remember that all grace flows through only the RCC. No membership in the RCC, and you go to hell (because you do not have any grace, even though you may think you do).

Now for the truth. Believe it or not, God does not work that way. He is omnipotent, omniscienct God, and He does everything His all-Holy way, and no other. He has given us a few requirements in the only real source of His truth that we have. If we follow His directions, then we will find salvation. If we do not, then we go to hell.

What are those requirements? We must believe in our hearts that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. And, we must want to follow Jesus and serve Him. We demonstrate our desire to serve Him by living a humble, penitent life. We try our best to avoid doing sinful things, and we also try to witness Christ whenever an opportunity presents itself.

Now, here is the real key. Once any person believes in his heart that Jesus is the Son of God, and therefore also God, and that person repents of sin, God then gives him a full measure of saving grace. This is done by an indwelling of the Holy Spirit within every single believer. Every true believer is "born again" spiritually in Christ. God tells us this is so. And this is Spirit baptism, the only "baptism" that counts, when the Holy Spirit comes into our hearts. This is why water baptism means nothing, and it certainly is not the "doorway" to anything pertaining to God.

What about sinning after we have received Christ as our Savior? Christians try not to sin, but they are still sinners, and they will still sin. However, and this is another important fact of God, when any person truly believes in Christ as their Savior, then God imputs His own righteousness to that person. What does that mean? It means that, when the person dies, and even though that person sinned after finding Christ, he is found blameless by God for all of his sins. All of his sins have been forgotten by God because he did what God wanted him to do.

Sacraments do not bring God's grace - that is a tradition of men and is not found in Scripture. Baptism and communion are the two ordinances given us by Jesus, but that is all they are, ordinances. While both of these ordinances are good in that God instructed us to partake of them (and we should partake of them), neither (water) baptism or Holy Communion are necessary for salvation. Only faith with repentance leads to salvation.

Now, here is the bottom line of all this discourse. Man can make up things, but God will not change. Forget all that nonsence about "binding and loosing" because it has been so misused by humans. The truth about it is that the apostles would receive guidance from the Holy Spirit whenever questions about Christianity arose (such as the first church souncil in Acts of the A[postles). But man will never be permitted to compromise God's holiness! And that is exactly what many of the traditions of the RCC attempt to do. You may believe that the use of idols is now permitted by God, but He tells us very clearly in Scripture that He hates all idols (ALL IDOLS, NO EXCEPTIONS), and He also tells us He NEVER CHANGES! NEVER! So you can believe what you want, but God will still not change.

There is so much more, but I have made my points. and I am sure there will be many Catholics who will add their disagreement to my post. But God's Truth does not change. That is why many might want to be Christians, but only a few (those who do it His way only) are actually chosen by Him.

You can believe it, or not. That is your choice to make.

Matthan
Not Catholic...but was baptised as an infant (Catholic Godparents) and Confirmed as an adult...
Partly Catholic School for most of Elementary School years...

I dont believe baptism is a "work"...
Niether is "praying the rosary" < yes I prayed the rosary-had every prayer memorized at one time...

Baptism from my understanding is a promise from the parents to raise the child in a Christian home...it is a ritual of bringing the child into God's (Christ's) family...(now I believe we are natually part of God's family-that is just my belief).
Now when one confesses to a Priest (I have Catholics in the family and married a lapsed Catholic) the Priest is not forgiving them, only God forgives...the Priest is just listening...
It's like going to a Minister or Pastor to talk to when one needs to talk about something that they have done...only the Minister or Pastor doesnt give one prayers to repeat...though I have heard of some Protestant Ministers/Pastors who will have the person confess to the whole Congregation :eek:
You are right though...its not about water that brings one to Christ...its about one's personal relationship...growth...
Water doesnt make one closer than another....
we all have our own personal relationship with Christ...with or without water baptism :)
 
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