The Truth About RCC Grace-Works

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Now, all of that is unscriptural tradition, but it gets worse. According to the RCC, all of God's grace flows through the RCC and is dispensed by the pope (hence you have to be a catholic to maybe find salvation). Vatican II started the term "separated brethren", but that is nothing more than lip service because you have to remember that all grace flows through only the RCC. No membership in the RCC, and you go to hell (because you do not have any grace, even though you may think you do).

Now for the truth. Believe it or not, God does not work that way.

You'll be happy to know that not only I don't believe, but Catholics don't either.

Catholics (and I) believe that Christ instituted the leadership of the church, the apostles, to appoint authoritative successors called bishops, and that it is on their authority- the delegated authority of Christ- that priests serving in parishs under them preach the gospel and administer the sacraments.

 

[Trento]

Convoluted reasoning, anyone?

The truth is there, but you believe what you want to believe... Still, when God tells us more than one hundred times throughout Scripture how idols of any kind are forbidden by Him, and there is not one verse in all of Scriptue that tells us idols are now acceptable to Him, I would tend to believe His commandments.

You rely on man's reasoning, and that is never a wise thing to do when God and His truth is the subject....

Matthan

Are you not relying on your own reasoning when interpreting scripture?

2 Peter 1:20, 2:1: First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation....But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies...”

Conclusion: “Private interpretation” leads to “false teachers who being destructive heresies.”

Peter 3:16-17: “There are some things in them [the Scripture] hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability.”

 

[Oblio]

/me starts hitching up the haywagon

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Sacraments do not bring God's grace - that is a tradition of men and is not found in Scripture. Baptism and communion are the two ordinances given us by Jesus, but that is all they are, ordinances. While both of these ordinances are good in that God instructed us to partake of them (and we should partake of them), neither (water) baptism or Holy Communion are necessary for salvation. Only faith with repentance leads to salvation.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized in Christ are clothed in Christ

Acts 2:38-39 Peter said, Repent, and be baptized, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children, and for many who are yet afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call.

1 Peter 3:21 Baptism now saves you

By the way, about all this 'tradition of men' guff...

Do you people honestly believe that all, comprehensibly all, of the practices and beliefs of the apostles were either written in the New Testament, or completely lost to history, and were not at all translated to their episcopal successors and their own disciples, the Apostolic Fathers?

 

[Matthan]

As I stated in an earlier post, many are called....

Oh well.....

 

[Trento]

/me starts hitching up the haywagon

 

[TigerBunny]

I am well aware of what section of the Theology boards we are in

The problem is when someone comes in here not to discuss or debate General Theology but rather comes to tell us what other people believe and then discusses (or more often than not attacks) their contrived or mistaken version of that belief. This is not debate, it is a logical fallacy, and a dishonest one at that. If we all debated the actual beliefs of each other, rather than the strawmen tilting at windmills that we construct, these Theology fora would be a much better place.

True...but first education must take place so that everyone knows where the other stands and what they believe. Otherwise all we have are shots in the dark that are bound to upset someone ( case and point this thread ). Mind you I'm not really reading anything else now. Just having a happy convo with you.

 

[TigerBunny]

First fruit of obedience is humility...

Galatians 5:
18. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.19. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,20. idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,21. envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.22. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23. gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.24. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.25. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

 

[Oblio]

Education starts with:

I'm interested in what you believe, could you please enlighten me.

and not claiming that we believe something posted on a Jack Chick, jesus-is-lord, carm, Dave Hunt, et. al. site.



I've probably racked up over 600 posts correcting what others claim Apostolic Christians believe.

 

[Kristos]

Galatians 5:
18. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.19. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,20. idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,21. envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.22. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23. gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.24. Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.25. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

Yep - bad fruit: disputes...

dissensions...

factions...

Bad fruit grown from disobedience. Thanks for the great verse!

 

[SeraphimSarov]

Convoluted reasoning, anyone?

The truth is there, but you believe what you want to believe... Still, when God tells us more than one hundred times throughout Scripture how idols of any kind are forbidden by Him, and there is not one verse in all of Scriptue that tells us idols are now acceptable to Him, I would tend to believe His commandments.

You rely on man's reasoning, and that is never a wise thing to do when God and His truth is the subject....

Matthan

That is not an answer.

 

[ticker]

Hey Matthan...how's it goin'

I think what you're saying (overall) about the message of the Bible is correct...but I'm not totally sure that everything you're saying about the RCC is correct.

So as Oblio said, hearing about how a certain group practices their fath is best left to those who live it. Otherwise, it seems like you're trying to start a war of words (although maybe that's not how you meant it).

We're your brothers and sisters, all of us, in Christ, and we love each other (whether we realize it or not). So let's rest in that truth and live it, and not risk shaking it by condemning each other's beliefs.



As far as what you're saying about grace goes, you're right in saying...

We must believe in our hearts that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.

...but I think (if I'm reading it correctly) you might be missing something in saying...

And, we must want to follow Jesus and serve Him. We demonstrate our desire to serve Him by living a humble, penitent life. We try our best to avoid doing sinful things, and we also try to witness Christ whenever an opportunity presents itself.

To be more exact, it is through grace that we do these things. As soon as someone says something like "we have to serve Jesus", then they're not living by grace, but by rules. We end up serving Jesus, we end up living humble lives, and we end up witnessing because Christ is in us...and as we yield to Him, we begin to love the very same things He loves.

We're not supposed to do our best to avoid sin for example...we're supposed to let Him do His best. That's walking in grace...admitting our inadequacy, and living in total dependance on His adequacy. We're not living for Him, but by Him. And that's the only thing He expects from us...surrendering and trusting in His sovereignty.


God bless you Matthan!

 

[ticker]

oops double post!

 

[DonnaB]

To be more exact, it is through grace that we do these things. As soon as someone says something like "we have to serve Jesus", then they're not living by grace, but by rules. We end up serving Jesus, we end up living humble lives, and we end up witnessing because Christ is in us...and as we yield to Him, we begin to love the very same things He loves.

Well said

 

[TigerBunny]

Education starts with:

I'm interested in what you believe, could you please enlighten me.

and not claiming that we believe something posted on a Jack Chick, jesus-is-lord, carm, Dave Hunt, et. al. site.



I've probably racked up over 600 posts correcting what others claim Apostolic Christians believe.

LOL...And I've racked up my share of arminian posts. I'll admit I have little patience at times but I love this site and the folks here despite thier religious foibles so on it goes eh?

Anywho...blessings

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

True...but first education must take place so that everyone knows where the other stands and what they believe.

It doesn't seem that the OP is overly susceptable to the education being provided.

 

[Tonks]

If I had a nickel for every time someone told me what I believe...you all know the rest of that old saw.

 

[TigerBunny]

It doesn't seem that the OP is overly susceptable to the education being provided.

Fine fine fine...y'all just want to be upset. And people accuse me of having my humor surgically removed. Pfft.

I'll pray for all of you.

/em hides in foxhole...

 

[Matthan]

Hey Matthan...how's it goin'

I think what you're saying (overall) about the message of the Bible is correct...but I'm not totally sure that everything you're saying about the RCC is correct.

So as Oblio said, hearing about how a certain group practices their fath is best left to those who live it. Otherwise, it seems like you're trying to start a war of words (although maybe that's not how you meant it).

We're your brothers and sisters, all of us, in Christ, and we love each other (whether we realize it or not). So let's rest in that truth and live it, and not risk shaking it by condemning each other's beliefs.

As far as what you're saying about grace goes, you're right in saying...

...but I think (if I'm reading it correctly) you might be missing something in saying...

To be more exact, it is through grace that we do these things. As soon as someone says something like "we have to serve Jesus", then they're not living by grace, but by rules. We end up serving Jesus, we end up living humble lives, and we end up witnessing because Christ is in us...and as we yield to Him, we begin to love the very same things He loves.

We're not supposed to do our best to avoid sin for example...we're supposed to let Him do His best. That's walking in grace...admitting our inadequacy, and living in total dependance on His adequacy. We're not living for Him, but by Him. And that's the only thing He expects from us...surrendering and trusting in His sovereignty.


God bless you Matthan!

I fully realize that different catholics and others do not all practice their religion in the same ways. That is one of the many situations that makes a lot of people disagree with my post. I am limited to what I find clearly stated in the RCC's catechism, dogma, and other catholic sources. But everything I have posted concerning RCC "beliefs" has either been pronounced and accepted by various popes and councils or has been otherwise adopted by the RCC.

For example, and this is a really good example, the Ten Commandments are fairly easy to read and understand. And yet the RCC has taken it upon itself to change and rewrite those commandments from God. They did it in their catechism, where you will find the Second Commandment (proscribing all idols) missing, and the Tenth Commandment split with the RCC rewriting the Ninth Commandment to state that we chould not covet our neighbor's wife and the Tenth losing wife but retaining everything else. Now, somebody way back when did this thing for the expressed purpose of hiding God's prohibition against all idols. But catholics today DO NOT CARE! They apparently accept that their church would rewrite God's Truth and make it a lie, and they blindly accept all of it. What makes this kind of situation even more depressing is that they will defend their church for doing it!!!!! They proclaim that they want to follow God, and believe in Him, but they blindly believe in their church and ignore what He tells us is His will in Scripture. And they think He will just forgive their blind belief in the RCC at the expense of ignoring His truth in Scripture.

You stated that it is through grace that we serve God, and that is mostly true. When we are saved (born again spiritually by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit) we develop the desire to serve God. Certainly we have God's grace, but we WANT to serve Jesus. And our "works" can range from doing the work of God (Jn 6:29) to witnessing for Jesus to charitable works to just loving our neighbors. So, while (I believe) you claim our works are because of our grace, I believe our works are because of our grace and our ever-growing desire to serve our Master.


Matthan

 

[Oblio]

For example, and this is a really good example, the Ten Commandments are fairly easy to read and understand. And yet the RCC has taken it upon itself to change and rewrite those commandments from God. They did it in their catechism, where you will find the Second Commandment (proscribing all idols) missing, and the Tenth Commandment split with the RCC rewriting the Ninth Commandment to state that we chould not covet our neighbor's wife and the Tenth losing wife but retaining everything else. Now, somebody way back when did this thing for the expressed purpose of hiding God's prohibition against all idols. But catholics today DO NOT CARE! They apparently accept that their church would rewrite God's Truth and make it a lie, and they blindly accept all of it. What makes this kind of situation even more depressing is that they will defend their church for doing it!!!!! They proclaim that they want to follow God, and believe in Him, but they blindly believe in their church and ignore what He tells us is His will in Scripture. And they think He will just forgive their blind belief in the RCC at the expense of ignoring His truth in Scripture.

The RCC simply interprets Holy Scripture differently than your tradition. They didn't remove any commandments any more than your tradition added any.