The true significance of the Communion

Tigger45

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Yes. He was saying to do this in remembrance of Him. It is something that believers do to remember what Jesus did when He died on the cross, being the Holy Lamb of God, and defeating sin, the curse, and death with His death, and then rising in triumph, sitting at the right of the Fa
Yes. He was saying to do this in remembrance of Him. It is something that believers do to remember what Jesus did when He died on the cross, being the Holy Lamb of God, and defeating sin, the curse, and death with His death, and then rising in triumph, sitting at the right of the Father. As He said, "it is finished". And it was. There is no need for "sacrifice" any longer. The "remembrance" that we participate in, is a celebration of sorts as well, for we rejoice in what He accomplished when He shed His blood on the cross. It is finished. Done. Sin, the curse, and death is defeated. He is triumphant!

Thank you kindly for your response.
John 6:48-58

I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh. The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "how can this man give us his flesh to eat?" So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever."

Oh it is in remembrance but Jesus makes it very clear that its more than that.
 
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Albion

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Nice Icon of the Holy Martyrs of Libya, Tiger. :)

Albion, you need to prove your claims about the origin of the physical presence.
Those who claimed that some documents show that it wasn't so have the burden of proving their contention by producing them. That would be you, as I recall. Then I will show you where you misread or misunderstood.

And BTW, it's "Tigger," not "Tiger." Maybe you read the Church Fathers with approximately the same attention to detail.
 
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throughfiierytrial

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Many here have stated that the Lord's Supper was instituted by Christ and that He Himself commanded the continued observance of the practice... I agree. RightTruth referenced John 6:50-56 which is another important truth concerning communion and that is that it offers life... eternal life. How so? I shall get to that point, but to do so, look carefully into the Word and all it teaches, collectively, on the topic of Communion:
On the night of institution Christ says of the bread He distributed among the twelve: this IS my body. He speaks the same of the cup they shared: this Is my blood. He goes on to proclaim it to be His blood of the covenant poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. This was all done during their observance of the Passover and one can get into all the symbolism and foreshadowing of Christ found in the Passover, but I will assume we all understand that it symbolized Christ's salvation via His blood.
The admonishments and commands of Paul found in I Corinthians 11:17-34 clarify further for us that the practice of sharing the Lord's Supper is commanded, that it is to be taken thoughtfully and prayerfully and that we proclaim the Lord's death until He comes in doing so. Paul states here that a man aught to examine himself before partaking and that a man aught to recognize the Lord's body in the loaf. He further warns that the Lord has judged some of their parishioners for the sin of not holding this practice, in effect, holy. They corrupted the practice.
I see from this evidence that the Lord's Supper is a time for self examination leading to repentance and we know the Lord forgives a repentant sinner... the practice thus both forgives sin, strengthens faith, keeps us one with Him... body and soul, which Paul tells us in Ephesians is a deep mystery...and thus allows us to proclaim the Lord's salvation until He returns!
 
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TheBarrd

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What youre saying Baard seems to lean in the hermeneutic of most of the Eastern Churches. Take a look at the articles on the Eucharist on fatheralexander.org, which can have a polemic character, or consider reading a treatise on Orthodox sacramentsl theology, I believe the definitive example being the work of Fr. Alexander Schmemann.

You are very close to practicing Christisnity according to the ancient mystical faith of the persecuted Eastern churches.

Like I said, I'm just a Christian. The only scholarly tome I've read is my Bible. I don't know anything about the ancient mystical faith of the persecuted Eastern churches.
I still have my doubts about the notion that the bread and wine being the actual flesh and blood of Jesus, although I believe He is certainly present at the Holy Communion.
I wonder whether our good intentions have led us astray. Perhaps we, too, ought to fast on the day before Good Friday...and hold our Holy Communion on Thursday evening after sunset...it should be a most solemn occasion, remembering the precious Body, broken for us, and the precious Blood, poured out for us. I think that, in doing it so often, as we seem to do, we tend to take it for granted.
Just my thoughts on the matter...the poor widow's two cents worth...
 
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brinny

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John 6:48-58

I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh. The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "how can this man give us his flesh to eat?" So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever."

Oh it is in remembrance but Jesus makes it very clear that its more than that.

Thank you kindly for sharing your views.
 
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brinny

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Therefore, it should be a joyous event to be observed, not as a ritual of a death memorial! Those who read the words of Jesus and keep it are in effect observing the communion spiritually. The Word which became flesh denotes His body symbolically and blood stands for life.

Consider:

Here are the applicable verses from the NIV version of the Bible.

MT 26:26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body."

MT 26:27 Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

MK 14:22 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take it; this is my body."

MK 14:23 Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, and they all drank from it.

MK 14:24 "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them.

LK 22:19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."

LK 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.


In John 6 with 13 bold statements, Jesus first declared that He is the bread of life. (This is a metaphor. Obviously Jesus was not a talking loaf of bread.) Then he explained the meaning of the metaphor by stated that His flesh is the bread; and that it is necessary to eat His flesh and drink His blood to have eternal life. There are no other examples of a similar extended metaphor in any of Jesus’ sayings. The language, rather than being a metaphor, is more a driving home of a point which is difficult to accept. (Which is the precise reaction of many of those who heard His words; they could not accept them.) It is of note tht Jesus did not attempt to explain any parabolic or metaphoric meaning to the disciples as He had done in other instances. Indeed, the apostles do not even question Jesus as to the meaning of His words. This lack of questioning suggests that they did not receive His words a metaphor or parable which would require that the symbols be explained in order to understand the meaning of the speech. It suggests that they understood them to be words plainly spoken and having no hidden or symbolic meaning.

JN 6:35 Then Jesus declared,

THE BREAD OF LIFE – the metaphor

(1) "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty.

48 (2) I am the bread of life. 49 Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died.

50(3) But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die.

51(4) I am the living bread that came down from heaven.

(5) If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever.


THE BREAD IS MY FLESH – the metaphor explained

(6) This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

JN 6:53 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth,

(7) unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

54(8) Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 (9) For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.

56(10) Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. (See John 15.)

57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so

(11) the one who feeds on me will live because of me.


THE BREAD OF LIFE – the lesson summarized

58(12) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but

(13) he who feeds on this bread will live forever."


Paul’s words concerning the Eucharist confirm that the bread and wine are the actual Body and Blood of the Lord rather than a symbol or a prop in a ritual of recalling.

1CO 10:16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?

1CO 11:23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me."

1CO 11:27 Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.

Now apply what Paul has told us at 1CO 4:6, “Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another”

How then can it be said that the bread and wine are merely symbols when there is no mention of symbols anywhere in scripture, but rather, the repeated statement “This is my body” and “This is … my blood” and, , JN 6:53"I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. JN 6:54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. JN 6:55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. JN 6:56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. JN 6:57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.”?

Where is there an indication that any of Jesus’ words should be taken as meaning, “This is a symbol of my body” or “this is a symbol of my blood”?

Ignatius of Antioch (30-107 A. D. A disciple of the apostle John and Bishop of Antioch) in his Epistle to the Smyrnaens, Ch. VII: “Let Us Stand Aloof from Such Heretics” states; “They (the heretics) abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins,..”

He was taught by the John, the beloved disciple of Christ and, in this statement, he affirms the teaching of the apostles and Christ that the bread is Christ’s body.

Justin Martyr, the church’s first apologist, wrote in the first half of the 2nd century in his “The First Apology of Justin”, in Chapter LXVI.—Of the Eucharist. In it he reports what he was taught as a new Christian by the church. That would mean that the teaching he received was already established in the church. It is not some later innovation by the Roman church but was a part of the teaching of the apostles who taught what they learned from Jesus. It is God’s inspired teaching to the church by His Son, through the apostles to the church. And here it is:

“And this food is called among us Eujcaristiva [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body; ”and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood; ”and gave it to them alone.”

Irenaeus (120-202 A.D.), in his book Against Heresies,

Book IV Chapter XVIII.—Concerning Sacrifices and Oblations, and Those Who Truly Offer Them.

4…………..But how can they be consistent with themselves, [when they say] that the bread over which thanks have been given is the body of their Lord, and the cup His blood, if they do not call Himself the Son of the Creator of the world, that is, His Word, through whom the wood fructifies, and the fountains gush forth, and the earth gives “first the blade, then the ear, then the full corn in the ear.”

5. Then, again, how can they say that the flesh, which is nourished with the body of the Lord and with His blood, goes to corruption, and does not partake of life? Let them, therefore, either alter their opinion, or cease from offering the things just mentioned. But our opinion is in accordance with the Eucharist, and the Eucharist in turn establishes our opinion. For we offer to Him His own, announcing consistently the fellowship and union of the flesh and Spirit. For as the bread, which is produced from the earth, when it receives the invocation of God, is no longer common bread, but the Eucharist, consisting of two realities, earthly and heavenly; so also our bodies, when they receive the Eucharist, are no longer corruptible, having the hope of the resurrection to eternity.

Chapter XXXIII.—Whosoever Confesses that One God is the Author of Both Testaments, and Diligently Reads the Scriptures in Company with the Presbyters of the Church, is a True Spiritual Disciple; And He Will Rightly Understand and Interpret All that the Prophets Have Declared Respecting Christ and the Liberty of the New Testament.

2. Moreover, he shall also examine the doctrine of Marcion, [inquiring] how he holds that there are two gods, separated from each other by an infinite distance. Or how can he be good who draws away men that do not belong to him from him who made them, and calls them into his own kingdom? And why is his goodness, which does not save all [thus], defective? Also, why does he, indeed, seem to be good as respects men, but most unjust with regard to him who made men, inasmuch as he deprives him of his possessions? Moreover, how could the Lord, with any justice, if He belonged to another father, have acknowledged the bread to be His body, while He took it from that creation to which we belong, and affirmed the mixed cup to be His blood?

Book V, Ch. II. 2 states, “He (Jesus) has acknowledged the cup (which is a part of the creation) as His own blood, from which He bedews our blood; and the bread (also a part of the creation) He has established as His own body, from which He gives increase to our bodies.”

3. When, therefore, the mingled cup and the manufactured bread receives the Word of God, and the Eucharist of the blood and the body of Christ is made, from which things the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they affirm that the flesh is incapable of receiving the gift of God, which is life eternal, which [flesh] is nourished from the body and blood of the Lord, and is a member of Him?—even as the blessed Paul declares in his Epistle to the Ephesians, that “we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones.” He does not speak these words of some spiritual and invisible man, for a spirit has not bones nor flesh; but [he refers to] that dispensation [by which the Lord became] an actual man, consisting of flesh, and nerves, and bones,—that [flesh] which is nourished by the cup which is His blood, and receives increase from the bread which is His body.

Chapter XXXVII

……………. And therefore the oblation of the Eucharist is not a carnal one, but a spiritual; and in this respect it is pure. For we make an oblation to God of the bread and the cup of blessing, giving Him thanks in that He has commanded the earth to bring forth these fruits for our nourishment. And then, when we have perfected the oblation, we invoke the Holy Spirit, that He may exhibit this sacrifice, both the bread the body of Christ, and the cup the blood of Christ, in order that the receivers of these antitypes may obtain remission of sins and life eternal.

Tertullian; On Prayer, Chapter XIX: “Of Stations.”

Similarly, too, touching the days of Stations, most think that they must not be present at the sacrificial prayers, on the ground that the Station must be dissolved by reception of the Lord’s Body. Does, then, the Eucharist cancel a service devoted to God, or bind it more to God? Will not your Station be more solemn if you have withal stood at God’s altar? When the Lord’s Body has been received and reserved each point is secured, both the participation of the sacrifice and the discharge of duty. If the “Station” has received its name from the example of military life—for we withal are God’s military —of course no gladness or sadness chanting to the camp abolishes the “stations” of the soldiers: for gladness will carry out discipline more willingly, sadness more carefully.


I wonder by what authority and for what reason these teachings of the very early church and the teaching of Paul and the very words of Jesus are refuted in order to say the bread and wine are merely symbols of His body and blood?[/QUOTE]

Does this mean that Jesus the Christ is re-sacrificed each and every time there is communion? If so, does it mean that His sacrifice on the cross was not enough and it was not the "final" and death-blowing sacrifice that triumphed over sin and the curse and death?

Does He literally come down from the right hand of the father to "re-die" every time there is communion? Is this what John 3:16 means? It was not enough when He hung on the cross, dying? When He rose from the dead, He did not triumphantly do so? When He said "It is finished", what was HE referring to?

Thank you kindly.
 
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<< Does this mean that Jesus the Christ is re-sacrificed each and every time there is communion? >>

Absolutely not.

In the manner similar to that of the Passover Seder as a "participation" in the original passover, the Eucharist is a "participation" in the sacrifice of Christ. Both events occurred only once.

From Fr. Alexander Schmemann's Eucharist;

The meaning [of the offering by the priest] lies ..... in the identification
of the priesthood of the Church [all believers] with the priesthood of Christ,
the one Priest of the New Testament, who through his own offering of himself
sanctified the Church and granted her participation in his priesthood and in
his sacrifice.
(Brackets indicate my clarification)

In my limited understanding, the offering to God of the Eucharist, as the body and blood of Christ, includes the offering of all believers (our reasonable sacrifice, Ro 12:1), who are in Christ, having been deified in our flesh by His incarnation which united human flesh to God in Christ. As members (one flesh with) of His body, we are also offered to God; all creation is offered back to God.

The bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ which we may consume through the centuries, as He instructed, until the He comes. As the Jews consumed the lamb of the Passover sacrifice so that they might live, (a foreshadowing of the sacrifice of "the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world") so we consume the body and blood of the Lord so that we have eternal life. (John 6:54)

The notion of the Eucharist as a "re-sacrifice" is a misunderstanding.
 
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Wgw

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Thank you Father Jim for reading Fr Scmemann at precisely the right moment to introduce clarity. What he says cooresponds precisely with Orthodox Dogmatic Theology by Protopresbyter Michael Pomazanksy, as translated by Fr. Seraphim Rose. And as you probably know the OO lean heavily on these books for our theological training, especially the Syriac, Malankara and Armenian priests who receive part of their training at St. Vladimirs (the Armenians then get the Armenian-specific linguistic, liturgical and cultural heritage training at St. Nerses, which on the website makes the rather bold claim that Classical Armenian is easy to learn as ancient languages go, without adding the qualifier, for someone who already speaks modern Armenian in one of its mutually incomprehensible dialcets, which are among the hardest, but perhaps youve heard the joke among OO wags that while Jesus spoke Aramaic, God the Father must speak Classical Armenian).
 
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Wgw

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Those who claimed that some documents show that it wasn't so have the burden of proving their contention by producing them. That would be you, as I recall. Then I will show you where you misread or misunderstood.

And BTW, it's "Tigger," not "Tiger." Maybe you read the Church Fathers with approximately the same attention to detail.

I listed the documents for you to review; these are all readily accessilne online via CCEL, archive.org and Google Books, askde from The Eucharistic Liturgies and The Oxford Handbook of Christian Worship, and The Eucharistic Epiclesis, which any Anglican scholar interested in liturgics ought to have; these can in fact be bought on iBooks or Amazon Kindle, or ordered in print form, but either way, they are not inexpensive. The Shape of the Liturgy by Dom Gregory Dix is a bit harder to fond; your best bet is inter library loan although given that Dom Gregory Dox died in 1950, I think some of the PDFs of it floating around the net might be in the public domain for you, but theyre not on Project Gutenberg Australia. Which is a pity.

However the oldest credible witness seems to be the Acts of the First Ecumenical Council which a Google search will bring up. Im not doing your homework for you. Your position, being the departure from liturgical scholarship, requires you to back it up.
 
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Wgw

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Thank you for encouraging my behavior! :smiley:

We need a solid pan-Orthodox presence here because people need to understand what our brothers are dying for in the Greek and Syriac Orthodox Patriarchates of Antioch, and the Greek and Coptic Orthodox Churches of Alexandria, and the Armenian and Ethiopian Tewahedo churches, as well as our cousins in the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Maronite, Melkite, Chaldean and Syriac and other regional Catholic Churches. There was a Syriac Catholic priest who was just murdered in Syria and is apparently one of the lastest martyrs to die at the hands of ISIL. And the theology of the Eastern churches has certain broad similiarities; for example, the ancient Chalcedonian schism aside, there is no readily doscernable difference between the faith and praxis of the modern day Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, just differences in the superficial aspects of the liturgy. And the sole difference between our churches and the Eastern Catholics is the latters enthusiasm for the Pope and certain Marian apparitions that we arent keen on.

The Assyrians are a bit different, but their liturgy is very much like ours, as is their belief on what happens in the Eucharist, soteriology, et cetera. Mar Dinkha IV repudiated the nastiest Nestorian bits, and youve probably read the East Meets East blog, although there are still examples pf what you might call Nestorian enthusiasts, but Im mot sure if, for example, the webmaster of nestorian.org, is even an ethnic Assyrian. And either way, they are Christians and dont deserve to have their heads cut off.

I pray also for the Yazidis, the Turkmen and other endangered minorities in the region, what happened to the Yahidis of Sinjar was a massacre akin to what happened with the Mahdist takeover of Khartoum in 1885. And indeed one could argue that Mohammed Ahmed, the "Mahdi" of Sudan, was the first modern Islamic fudamentalist with a penchant for beheading Christians, Jews and other Muslims.
 
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