The True Israel

[anthony55]

Anthony55, I just saw your answer in the other thread. Gee, I would think that if some want to report others here it would be for telling people they can't be saved. That is, unless you believe like anthony55.

The non elect cannot be saved, God created them as vessels of wrath and they are fitted for destruction.

The serpents seed cannot be saved, Jesus makes that clear here Matt 23:


31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Does that sound like Jesus is giving them hope to be saved to you ? And they are jews He is speaking to !

 

[anthony55]

Acts 26:


6And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God, unto our fathers:

7Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.

8Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?

If this was an ethnic jewish hope, why was Paul standing accused of the jews ?

And no doubt the Twelve Tribes here are the same in rev 7:

4And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Now why would Paul, a jew by birth, of the tribe of Benjamin, why would he be accused of the jews for the hope of the twelve tribes ?

Because for the same reason he says in rom 9:



6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

You see, the Twelve Tribes of Israel Paul meant were not Abraham's seed according to the Flesh, but of Promise, as it was a Spiritual Israel, there was a Spiritual Twelve Tribes, centered in Election in Christ.

 

[Duckybill]

The non elect cannot be saved, God created them as vessels of wrath and they are fitted for destruction.

The serpents seed cannot be saved, Jesus makes that clear here Matt 23:


31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Does that sound like Jesus is giving them hope to be saved to you ? And they are jews He is speaking to !

Did you forget, the 12 and Paul were Jews? Your argument has vast holes.

 

[heritage36]

Matt 23 cannot be talking about the whole generation of the Jewish people there, because as duckybill pointed out, the apostles were Jews and obviously not included, same with many other Jews who did accept Jesus. If you really look at that verse in Matt 23, you can see that he is not talking to all Jews, but specifically to Pharisees and Scribes, who Jesus wanted to change their ways and do many things different, like caring for the poor as one of the many examples. Even all the pharisees were not wicked though, as Jesus spoke with some on a very civil basis as we see int he gospels. That would mean then that we have to look at the word "generation" here as its other meaning, as in "to generate" or "to produce or make". Jesus likely would be referring to the poor choices of behavior of these specific Pharisees and Scribes that he wants them to change, telling them that destruction in gehenna awaits if they do not change and hoping that provokes change. This is just a good example of context being misinterpreted and causing someone to be misled by a verse with a totally different meaning. Context as always, is very key!

 

[heritage36]

rom 9:

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed

You should have highlighted the part after what you highlighted and taken that into account more. This is likely meant that just because you are Jewish does not mean you are already saved, but you have to accept the promise of Christ. That would mean that if a Jew accepted that, obviously then that Jew would be as you said, "counted for a child of God" and as you say then be accepted by him. Faith also seems to be a big part of this chapter, as it goes on to talk about Sarah and Rebecca shortly after that, as examples of this faith. Being that Romans was written to Jewish BELIEVERS in Rome, these people likely would have accepted Christ already, and this is probably just encouragement to keep them on that path and help them bring others to the faith in Jesus also.

 

[anthony55]

You should have highlighted the part after what you highlighted and taken that into account more. This is likely meant that just because you are Jewish does not mean you are already saved, but you have to accept the promise of Christ. That would mean that if a Jew accepted that, obviously then that Jew would be as you said, "counted for a child of God" and as you say then be accepted by him. Faith also seems to be a big part of this chapter, as it goes on to talk about Sarah and Rebecca shortly after that, as examples of this faith. Being that Romans was written to Jewish BELIEVERS in Rome, these people likely would have accepted Christ already, and this is probably just encouragement to keep them on that path and help them bring others to the faith in Jesus also.

It means what it says:

rom 9:

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed

Abrahams Children of Promise are all belivers in Christ jew or gentile. Abrahams Children of the Flesh, are not the Children of God.

So any group of jews you make apart from Faith in Christ are not the Children of God and those you include with the Faith of Christ, all national barriers are destroyed.

So which is it ?

 

[heritage36]

You have vastly misinterpreted that scripture as I pointed out and you ignored and went back to what you previously said, and in doing so, you are creating a stumbling block to your own understanding of these scriptures. I encourage you to look through these things with a more open mind and not be set on believing it says exactly what you think it says and is talking about what you think. What you believe it means is not in accordance with what this passage is speaking about, and you proved in the 144000 thread that it also is misleading you in other areas as well.

 

[heritage36]

If you believe scripture means what it says all the time, then I guess Herod was a fox as Jesus said, hey?

 

[Mess]

The true Israel is Israel, now that wasn't that hard was it?

 

[heritage36]

Very well said, Mess. You simplified it well for everyone.

 

[anthony55]

The true Israel is Israel, now that wasn't that hard was it?

Which is not Abraham's Physical descendants, who are not the Children of God rom 9:

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[anthony55]

You have vastly misinterpreted that scripture as I pointed out and you ignored and went back to what you previously said, and in doing so, you are creating a stumbling block to your own understanding of these scriptures. I encourage you to look through these things with a more open mind and not be set on believing it says exactly what you think it says and is talking about what you think. What you believe it means is not in accordance with what this passage is speaking about, and you proved in the 144000 thread that it also is misleading you in other areas as well.

None of Abraham's Physical Descendants [ to include the 144000] are the Children of God. Rom 9:

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[heritage36]

Would you not acknowledge though, that you are hinging all your view on that verse in romans 9 then? You have to realize that if you keep going back to that to support your view of this, and if you are misinterpreting that verse, then your understanding of the topic at hand may be incorrect.

 

[Mess]

Which is not Abraham's Physical descendants, who are not the Children of God rom 9:

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

*yawns sleepily and bored by your anti-semitism*

Dude you are clearly a blind fool, and we had this discussion before. You ignore numerous verses from scripture that show that Israel, as in the Jews, as in the sons and daughters of Abraham are Israel, yet you chose to ignore them. You chose to follow satanic teachings that the church is Israel. You are so blind that you do not see what you are teaching is actually promoting the desctruction of the Jews, and with that the ending of the chance of the fulfillment of prophecies, and the return of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Luckily He does not depend on deceived beings like yourself to fulfill His work, else Satan would have won a long time ago. But ok, you want to be an anti-semite by all means proceed, but I'm not bothering argueing with foolish people. You will have to answer to Him, not to me.

 

[anthony55]

*yawns sleepily and bored by your anti-semitism*

Dude you are clearly a blind fool, and we had this discussion before. You ignore numerous verses from scripture that show that Israel, as in the Jews, as in the sons and daughters of Abraham are Israel, yet you chose to ignore them. You chose to follow satanic teachings that the church is Israel. You are so blind that you do not see what you are teaching is actually promoting the desctruction of the Jews, and with that the ending of the chance of the fulfillment of prophecies, and the return of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Luckily He does not depend on deceived beings like yourself to fulfill His work, else Satan would have won a long time ago. But ok, you want to be an anti-semite by all means proceed, but I'm not bothering argueing with foolish people. You will have to answer to Him, not to me.

rom 9:

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

rom 9:

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

You need to make that a sticky

http://www.christianforums.com/t7511498/#post56068782

 

[Duckybill]

You need to make that a sticky

Hardly, since he has already wore it out.

 

[anthony55]

You need to make that a sticky

[URL="http://www.christianforums.com/t7511498/#post56068782"]http://www.christianforums.com/t7511498/#post56068782[/URL]

Perhaps,, but that one verse overthrows dispensationalism.

And to you, Do I understand that you believe the Second Coming has already occured ?

 

[anthony55]

The Problem with the dispys is that they ignore the NT writers understanding of the NT, especially Paul, who is way more qualified to understand the OT Prophecies to Gods People than any dispy I know. For He was a Jew in the Flesh of the Highest grade phil 3, and more importantly He was Taught of Jesus Christ Personally.

Now, Israel is Abraham's seed Isa 41:8

But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

Paul Identifies Christ, not the Physical Israel, as Abraham's Seed Gal 3:


16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Its not Two Seeds, that concerns God with Abraham's Seed, Physical Israel and Christ, its Just ONE seed, and it ain't National Israel.

Because National Israel was Abraham's seed according to the Flesh, and Abraham's Children/seed according that are not the Children of God.

Rom 9:


8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

National Israel according to the Flesh is not the Children God gave to Christ heb 2:

13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

Nor are they the seed of Abraham referred to here Heb 2:

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

 

[Preecher]

Anthony55, I just saw your answer in the other thread. Gee, I would think that if some want to report others here it would be for telling people they can't be saved. That is, unless you believe like anthony55.

I doubt if it does any good to report anyone. I mean really, if they allow a thread entitled "National Israel is cursed forever" that oozes with anti-Semitism, they will allow most anything. Besides, reporting others seems rather cowardly imo.