The Trinity

[Winepress777]

Exactly, but they aren't three, they are one. It is all the same God. They are not equal, HE IS.

Haha, I love your answers, so solid and plain truth. Amen. I also Worship Jesus as My Lord and my God;

(Joh 20:28) And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
(Joh 20:29) Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

 

[Winepress777]

What a great subject this is!

---My backstory - skip ahead if you dont want to read----
I want to preface this by saying this; I also grew up catholic and in my teen years I basically rejected God and became of the world - up until about 30 years old or so. During this time I met my now wife who was also of the world and she grew up in a very strict Jehovah Witness family. We both entered marriage not following the Lord. I always had the tug on my heart for God and it got stronger and stronger the older I got. I decided to answer Gods call and was looking for direction.

I talked with my boss who is a believer and I started to go to his Church which is non denominational. I immediately loved the fact that the word was taught book by book, chapter by chapter, verse by verse and not topical. In my zeal for the Lord I started to push my wife to go to Church with me and this is how I found out about her JW past. She was very resistant to me and come to find out a lot of what modern day Christians follow is considered pagan to JW's.

I was at a crossroads. I wanted to be equally yoked with my wife but more importantly I wanted to make sure I was on the right path with God. So I started to do research, a LOT of research. I read up a lot about JW apologetics and "mainstream" Christianity apologetics. I always made sure to let the Bible be the final say on any research.

I say all this because the trinity is a hot subject and JW's do not believe Jesus is God, so it was important for me to know what I was talking about, especially in my household and especially with my wife who spent 30-40 hours a week for 20 years reading the Bible.

I dont say all this to puff myself up, I say all this because I have studied - in my limited knowledge and time - both sides of the Trinity argument.
----End of story---

First I want to address God's requirement for perfection; the example you used of the tabernacle. (I will probably stumble in this so if I need correcting please do so, my knowledge here is not the best). Yes, God requires perfection to go to him. In the old testament only the highest priests could make the sacrifice for example. However, Jesus bridges that gap, so that through Him, we now have direct access to God the Father. You have to remember, pre Christ is the age of law because no savior had come to stand in place of the sinner (this is why animal blood sacrifices were required). Post Christ is the age of grace because now we have Jesus, who stands in place of the sinner (through the cross). Jesus is now that perfection for us.

Back to the trinity, I think we can all agree that there are parts of the bible which can be left up to interpretation if not in proper context. Well even scholars today argue certain parts of the Bible. However, there are absolutes. Throughout the Bible there are numerous "I AM" statements. I AM is absolute, there is no kinda, part, somewhat, a little that could fit into the statement "I AM". Hope this makes sense. So with that said, if God says "I AM" and Jesus says "I AM" then who is "I AM", Jesus or God? Jesus and God are "I AM" because they are one in the same.

Also think of this. God destroyed (or let be destroyed) nations for Idolatry. Do you really think he would let billions of Christians for almost 2,000 years worship Jesus if Jesus was not in fact God? Do you really think he would allow for almost 2,000 years the whole structure of our faith to be wrong without correction?

Another thing to consider - those denominations that teach against the trinity have also claimed things would happen during certain times which never came to fruition. The Bible confirms its profits because what they prophesied about came to pass. All others are nothing more than false prophets and we are warned repeatedly to stay away.

Again I say, if the "truine" God is a man made fiction, please refute it with scripture. I have given my case for the "truine" God with scripture in my previous post, if the meaning I posted is wrong please tell me what the scriptures linked meant.

We all desire to walk in truth.

When you believe this scriptures, then the others will become evident. You start here;'

(Deu 6:4) Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Then...

(1Co 12:3) ... no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Once this is established, NOW read other scriptures.

 

[Winepress777]

I suppose that you would consider Paul a heretic...
Ephesians 4:6, 10
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. [10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

So, again please show me how the Bible does not support this understanding??

Please show me one time when the majority held any weight? The majority in Scripture has NEVER NOT ONE TIME been correct. King Ahab had 400 prophets all saying the same thing, but guess what? It was ONE MAN (Micaiah) that had the truth. Maybe a good idea to re read the Bible. ALL the Pharisees were against what John the Baptist was saying and doing, but he was the ONE MAN (Before Christ's ministry, then HE was the ONE) Who had God used!

I am NOT claiming to be that man. This is NOT my interpretation, but as the Scripture says,
Revelation 10:7
But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
Jesus even said it:
Matthew 17:11
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

This has come to pass, and just like the Jews, the vast majority who were looking for the messiah MISSED HIM WHEN HE CAME. (Please prove me wrong) So has the vast majority missed the fulfillment of these Scriptures and will also miss His Second Coming!

Amen

 

[Winepress777]

It is very important who we worship as God, at lest it is to God. Even more then you think, because God is going to test us on the first greatest commandment, to see if we really love Him, or not. It speaks this way in the OT, and in the NT, as to the New, all I should have to mention is the man of sin, antichrist, the beast. There is a reason Paul knew, and warned with tears, that after he died, from in and from out, false doctrine would enter the church. It's not maybe, it's not, now that he has warned the church, it will now avoid this. No, it's coming, and will eat as does a canker (gaggraina) he knows, because it was prophesied in scripture, that after all the elders that seen all the great works that God did, after they died, another generation after them would turn quickly, and serve other gods. He spoke of the falling away (and worshipping a man that sits on God's throne as he were God himself,) so did Jesus, and the other disciples.

1 John 4:21 (KJV) And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God (1B first Greatest commandment) love his brother also (2A second greatest commandment).

The first greatest commandment (Mark 12:29-31) is made up of two parts. Part (1A) The LORD our God is one LORD, and part (1B) we are to love this God with everything we have. You will notice the second greatest commandment (2A) in 1 John 4:21, love your neighbour as yourself, and part (1B) of the first greatest commandment, love God. Do you think He cancelled part (1A) God is one LORD?

Acts 17:29 (KJV) Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device (G1761 – enthymēsis - thinking, thought, pondering, imagination, consideration (what man thinks up by his own understanding)). 30 And (G3303 – men - truly, or certainly, (so we need to pay close attention to what he is about to say...)) the times of this ignorance God winked at (G5237 – hyperoraō - to overlook, (God had overlooked mans understanding of God)); but now commandeth all men every where to repent (of other gods): 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness...

In the past, God overlooked mans own imagination of God, but now commands all, to repent of mans own understanding of God. We need to worship the true God, in truth. If we don't walk in the truth, we walk in a lie.

So, the scriptures must clearly teach who this God is.


Two thousand years may seem like a safe place to be, but lets put this in perspective.

John said it is the last hour, he is not saying it's coming, but it is hear. We know, because many antichrists have already shown up, and Paul is now passed on, and John is at the end of his days. The apostles were already fighting off, and holding back much false doctrine. So, the average time period of the apostles, to round it off, was about 30 AD to about 90 AD, about 60 years. Now to put this into perspective, after the first 60 years, after the times of the apostles, add another 60 years, then another 60 years, then another 60 years, then add another 60 years, which brings us to about 330 AD. How bad do you think it would have gotten by then? Think the church would now be greatly united, especially after things were already threatening in their day, and these many antichrists have been around for 240 years?

Matthew 13:33; 1 Corinthians 5:6

Yes

 

[Winepress777]

I was going to read the entire thread, but instead, let me make two comments, if they have been covered so be it, if not, something to consider.

1. so far I haven't seen anyone talk about the HS part of the trinity. If God is not triune, what is the HS and why would I want Him to make HIs home within me? Why would Jesus have told us to watch for that HS?

2. without Jesus as part of the trinity, we revert (from a religious standpoint) back of observant Judaism. IOW's the Jews believe Jesus was a prophet, so nothing in Judaism would have changed and anyone being a "Christian" would in reality still be trying to obey the Jewish law.

Now back to catching up in the thread

Jesus resurrected and Come and Abiding in me is MY Holy Spirit in me. I sure wouldn't let any other so called "holy spirit" in me, it would be a fraud.

(Col 1:27) To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

THIS can ONLY be a mystery to a person who's been taught that their holy spirit is some"one" other than Christ.

 

[razzelflabben]

When you believe this scriptures, then the others will become evident. You start here;'

(Deu 6:4) Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Then...

(1Co 12:3) ... no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Once this is established, NOW read other scriptures.

It seems to me that everyone here or at least everyone who is being vocal, believes there is only one God....not sure why you all would make a focal point out of something we all agree on, but cool.

 

[razzelflabben]

Jesus resurrected and Come and Abiding in me is MY Holy Spirit in me. I sure wouldn't let any other so called "holy spirit" in me, it would be a fraud.

if you let another spirit in, it wouldn't be a holy spirit at all. But that seems to be trying to shift the focus from the truth of what you are being told onto a misrepresentation you think you can exploit...at least that is what it seems like you are trying to do.

(Col 1:27) To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

THIS can ONLY be a mystery to a person who's been taught that their holy spirit is some"one" other than Christ.

Okay, now I am totally stumped as to what you think is being said...seriously, who is talking about another spirit other than the Holy Spirit, well, who other than you that is. In fact, I presented a passage that talked about the spirit of man returning to God being that it was given by God...seems to me that would be God's spirit and not another spirit...I don't know, you seem very confused, kind of hoping your posts kind of show clearer thinking and understanding pretty soon. For example, I have no idea where you are getting this spirit idea of other spirits, that is unclear thinking and understanding.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Trying to make sure I understand...so when we are adopted by God, are we not "literally" the sons and daughters of God? What are we then? Seriously, not trying to be difficult just not following your point.

You need to define your term "literally." When you say that Jesus is "literally" God's Son I take it to mean that you think that he came out of the Father in the same way that we came out of our fathers. This is what the JWs believe.

But the term "Son" in reference to Jesus is only a title. It means that he is God's appointed king. David also was God's "son" or appointed king. Speaking of David it says, "I will appoint him my firstborn son, highest of the kings of the earth" And, "I will appoint my king upon my holy hill. I will declare the decree saying, 'You are my Son....' "

Therefore, the term "Son" as it applies to Jesus refers to his office as king. Jesus is NOT God's Son literally.

 

[7xlightray]

.

I asked...
“What part of an immortal God can die?”

You replied...
“the fleshly part...”

It seemed like you did, but just in case you did not...
...I replied...
“It sound to me like you are saying God became the actual flesh of Jesus. If so, then I present this.”

That's ok.

So, then...
If you are saying, God was not the flesh of Jesus. Then God did not die.
And this was my point, to those that claim, God had to die for the sins of the world.
If only the flesh died, then it was only flesh (man) that died, not God.


“please offer passages that show that Jesus is not God in the flesh”
Actually I did Isaiah 45:4-5 in Post #193. You made this following comment on it, but you probably did not read that post... “not sure what this intent is, but apparently not directed at the general public, so I will leave that to whomever you aimed it at.”


About Jesus raising himself, I said “(Just in case)”.
“or that any of this has to deal with understanding trinity”
We'll I can show, who the Bible says, is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.


John 1:14 The word became flesh (this is God's word becoming flesh)
Genesis 1:14 And God said (this is God's word becoming the sun and moon), Let there be lights in the firmament...
Seems clear to me.


“The problem however, is that I asked you for passages, and you still don't have many to offer”
I said: “I can show you all the scripture you ask, but it will have to be big posts”, because you had some reservation about big post, so I was waiting for your response.
I do have 1 John 1 ready, in reply to your post on 1 John 1. And it's not that big, so I will put it up.

 

[7xlightray]

.

Those passages that talk about Jesus creating (you mentioned Colossians 1:17 before all things), you will notice they are authorities, thrones and such, that are in heaven and on earth. It does not say, he created heaven and earth. Jesus now puts who he wishes, in authority positions, as he is now on God's throne, as you will notice in Revelation 12, when he is taken up, there is no more a place found for Satan and his angels. And now he is waiting TILL all his enemies are put under his feet.

Lets keep this in context...

Colossians 1
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature (this is speaking of the first born from the dead, so the context is after his resurrection):
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in (G1909 – epi - upon, on) earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: (all referring to authorities)
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. (so how can we take this verse, out from it's context, and put it all the way before Genesis?)

The parallel passage is Ephesians 1:7-23, and will give aid, in understanding Colossians 1:12-20

 

[Winepress777]

I'm curious for those that are quibbling over whose name you were baptized in....whose name was Jesus baptized in? His own? Wouldn't that be a little bit silly? And if He was baptized only for the forgiveness of sin, what sin was He repenting of, given that He was the fulfillment of the law (iow's without sin)? I don't know, I'm confused by this whole agenda and not sure who exactly to direct the questions to being it seems to be all getting mangled up somehow.

If you know your scriptures, you would know that Jesus was baptized into Christ; for we even see the very Holy Spirit of Christ Came upon Jesus when He was raised up, and "Christed" Him. Jesus was His Name. Christ IS God. At His Baptism, Two became One. Jesus thenceforth shewed Himself unto Israel. Not until then. Because THEN was God manifested in the flesh.

if you let another spirit in, it wouldn't be a holy spirit at all. But that seems to be trying to shift the focus from the truth of what you are being told onto a misrepresentation you think you can exploit...at least that is what it seems like you are trying to do. Okay, now I am totally stumped as to what you think is being said...seriously, who is talking about another spirit other than the Holy Spirit, well, who other than you that is. In fact, I presented a passage that talked about the spirit of man returning to God being that it was given by God...seems to me that would be God's spirit and not another spirit...I don't know, you seem very confused, kind of hoping your posts kind of show clearer thinking and understanding pretty soon. For example, I have no idea where you are getting this spirit idea of other spirits, that is unclear thinking and understanding.

If you don't understand and are confused with the short clear passages I've put up, it isn't my unclear thinking and understanding.

 

[7xlightray]

.

The Father is the true light, that Jesus brought to the world, that the Father brought into the world through His son. The Father reconciling us to Himself, through Jesus, working through Jesus. The Father's full expression of Himself, dwelt in Christ.

In 1 John 1:7 it says, and the blood of His son, showing he has been talking about the Father. The God, and Father of the son. Here I think this is the only way I can show you...

1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life (we will see he is not referring to the person Jesus because it was manifested in Christ, meaning Jesus displayed it, but it was God the Father they were seeing, while it was Jesus they looked upon, heard, and handled, John is referring to that life, that word of truth, that was displayed); 2 (For the life was manifested (in Jesus), and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life (now obviously, as you can see, he is not showing us Jesus, because Jesus is now in heaven, he is showing us the truth, that dwelt in Christ, as he will tell us, this is what they heard from Jesus (verse 5), seen, and handled, and that truth is that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all, which he will tell us starting from verse 5), which was with the Father (true life), and was manifested unto us (in Jesus)); 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you (they not only heard the truth, but seen the truth action, they seen the expression of God the Father in flesh, in Jesus), that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ (yes our fellowship is with the disciples, and the Father, and son, if we walk in the truth, notice no mention of the Holy Spirit, but also notice this also defines for us the Father and son, because verse 7 is going to reveal the 'God” John has been talking about from verse 5 to verse 7). 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him (Jesus, who spoke to them about the Father, that was in heaven, in the Gospels), and declare unto you, that God (now I can show God is the light from N/T, and O/T, even from this passage it can be seen) is light, and in him (Father, is truth, and in Him there is no lie, for He is love) is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him (Father, if we follow the flow of whats written, we will see, John is talking about no one else, but the Father because it's only the Father that has a son Jesus, not unless you now want to say, the Son is the Son, of the Son, because the Holy Spirit is not even mentioned), and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth (darkness here is the lie, light is truth, if we don't do the truth, we believe a lie): 7 But if we walk in the light, as he (Father, has to be, because he has a son Jesus Christ...) is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his (Father's) Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Now you can put understanding to John 1, remembering, and keeping in mind, Light is truth, and it's in the Father, and came out of the Father. As verse 9 of John 1 says, the true light, which we know from 1 John 1 is speaking of the Father. And the Word is the Word of life, that Jesus spoke, and lived. Jesus is this Word of God, that came down, to do all that God sent it to do, but does not mean before this, God's Word was another person.

Isaiah 55:10 (KJV) For as the rain cometh down (Word came down and became Christ), and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud (Christ is the living water that brings life), that it may give seed to the sower(sound familiar? seed is the Word of God, and the Word became flesh and brings life, and we confess the word), and bread to the eater (Christ is the true bread of life that came down, we are to eat at his table, taking in his doctrine): 11 So shall my word (that Word that came down and became flesh, dwelt in Christ, Christ is the Word of God, the Word that brings life and truth) be that goeth forth out of my mouth (remember Christ said he came forth and was sent by the Father John 17:8, and speaks the words of God, Jesus is the [Logos: expressing the thoughts of the Father through the Spirit, is a broad term meaning "reasoning expressed by words”]): it shall not return unto me void (the Word came down and dwelt among us, then returned to God accomplishing all of God's will), but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it(remember Christ said he came forth and was sent by the Father John 17:8, Jesus did not come of his own authority, own initiative, or to do his own will John 3:34; 6:38; 7:28; 8:42).

Psalm 40:6(KJV) Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened (he grew in Spirit, God put His law in his heart, he was given the spirit of God the implanted Word without measure Isaiah 55:11): burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. 7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me (Jesus, and here is something to keep in mind when reading scripture, we are his body), 8 I delight to do thy (Father) will, O my God (the Father): yea, thy(Father) law is within my (Jesus) heart (again the Word and God's love was in Christ).

In John 1:1 Up to verse 5 it speaks of the Father's light, which will become flesh in verse 14, then from verse 6-8 it speaks of the witness of John, of Father's light in Jesus. Then starting from verse 10 it speaks of the Father's light in Christ, then verse 14 it speaks of that true light becoming Jesus. The Word is God's expressed thoughts, reason, His Breath, His Spirit. All things were made by that breath. In that breath, was life and truth. And that life is the light, which we find out in verse 9, is the true light, that brings life, and truth to all that come into the world.

 

[Albion]

If you know your scriptures, you would know that Jesus was baptized into Christ; for we even see the very Holy Spirit of Christ Came upon Jesus when He was raised up, and "Christed" Him. Jesus was His Name. Christ IS God. At His Baptism, Two became One. Jesus thenceforth shewed Himself unto Israel. Not until then. Because THEN was God manifested in the flesh.

That unorthodox (because it posits that Jesus was, at one time in his life, not God) explanation doesn't address her question, though.

We were discussing in whose name the baptism is supposed to be performed; you are trying out an explanation of what Jesus became at the moment of his baptism.

 

[Tigger45]

If you know your scriptures, you would know that Jesus was baptized into Christ; for we even see the very Holy Spirit of Christ Came upon Jesus when He was raised up, and "Christed" Him. Jesus was His Name. Christ IS God. At His Baptism, Two became One. Jesus thenceforth shewed Himself unto Israel. Not until then. Because THEN was God manifested in the flesh.

If you don't understand and are confused with the short clear passages I've put up, it isn't my unclear thinking and understanding.

Oh so you're not trinitarian but quadrarian? Christ is God, Jesus is God, Holy Spirit is God and the Father is God.

 

[Albion]

Oh so you're not trinitarian but quadrarian? Christ is God, Jesus is God, Holy Spirit is God and the Father is God.

Hmm. The mystery deepens. I took his explanation to mean that Jesus of Nazareth was just a man until adopted or otherwise deified by the Father (or the Holy Spirit) at the start of his public ministry.

 

[Tigger45]

Hmm. The mystery deepens. I took his explanation to mean that Jesus of Nazareth was just a man until adopted or otherwise deified by the Father (or the Holy Spirit) at the start of his public ministry.

Yeah you're probably right. I was going to try and draw that explanation out of him because I hadn't seen him make a declarative statement that Jesus wasn't God at conception but I could of missed that post.

 

[Winepress777]

Oh so you're not trinitarian but quadrarian? Christ is God, Jesus is God, Holy Spirit is God and the Father is God.

You are being ridiculous and obtuse. Ok, I see the problem here... good day.

(Joh 8:43) Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

 

[razzelflabben]

You need to define your term "literally." When you say that Jesus is "literally" God's Son I take it to mean that you think that he came out of the Father in the same way that we came out of our fathers. This is what the JWs believe.

well, first, I wasn't the one to said literally, I was just confused by your comment to the person who did use it. Second, when someone says to me that Jesus is literally God and literally God's Son, I think trinity.

Lately the issue has come up a couple of times in discussion about word meanings. Like it or not, often times, our interpretation of words is largely due to our history, rather than context. From my position as a writer this is a very unfortunate thing. For example, this discussion about Jesus being Literally X....Literally means not figurative, yet you read it to say born of. Jesus can be literally God and literally the Son of God without being literally born from Him. In fact, when we remove our understandings of life and see God as the "all" that we believe Him to be, we suddenly discover that all things are possible.

But the term "Son" in reference to Jesus is only a title. It means that he is God's appointed king. David also was God's "son" or appointed king. Speaking of David it says, "I will appoint him my firstborn son, highest of the kings of the earth" And, "I will appoint my king upon my holy hill. I will declare the decree saying, 'You are my Son....' "

well, I would have to disagree. As being born of a virgin by the HS, I would have to say that Jesus is the begotten Son as well as God in fleshly clothes. And yes, He is also King, and the first born son was always the inheritor of that title.

Therefore, the term "Son" as it applies to Jesus refers to his office as king. Jesus is NOT God's Son literally.

see above, I think you are missing some important things.

 

[razzelflabben]

I asked...
“What part of an immortal God can die?”

You replied...
“the fleshly part...”

It seemed like you did, but just in case you did not...
...I replied...
“It sound to me like you are saying God became the actual flesh of Jesus. If so, then I present this.”

now, take a short moment to think about this and not only this but the rest of what I said as clarification....have you thought about it a moment?

As I said and as scripture says, Jesus is God in the flesh, iow's not that God is the flesh of Christ, but that Christ is God in the flesh. See the difference?

That's ok.

So, then...
If you are saying, God was not the flesh of Jesus. Then God did not die.
And this was my point, to those that claim, God had to die for the sins of the world.
If only the flesh died, then it was only flesh (man) that died, not God.

Are you not body, soul, and spirit as scripture says? If man is body, soul, and spirit as scripture says (which btw, I believe what it says, just so there is no question) then, when Jesus flesh died, He died as much as any man who dies in the flesh. In fact, being fully God and fully man, He would be die as much as you or I.

“please offer passages that show that Jesus is not God in the flesh”
Actually I did Isaiah 45:4-5 in Post #193. You made this following comment on it, but you probably did not read that post... “not sure what this intent is, but apparently not directed at the general public, so I will leave that to whomever you aimed it at.”

hum...why would I do that since I said that Jesus was God in the flesh? I don't know, I have a hard time figuring out why people like you would insist that I evidence something totally foreign to what I actually did say, unfortunately it happens every time the other person is challenged and become uncomfortable with that challenge.

About Jesus raising himself, I said “(Just in case)”.
“or that any of this has to deal with understanding trinity”
We'll I can show, who the Bible says, is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

huh? Jesus didn't raise Himself, God raised Him, just as we will be raised, not in our own power but in the power of the living God. Remember, Jesus was/is our example.

John 1:14 The word became flesh (this is God's word becoming flesh)
Genesis 1:14 And God said (this is God's word becoming the sun and moon), Let there be lights in the firmament...
Seems clear to me.

wow, remember when I clarified this for you...right now, I am short of time, but a quick refresher....there is a difference between things coming into existence at the command or word of God and a totally different thing to have the Word become flesh and dwell among us. Apparently you are confusing the two. Oh, and I previously posted passages that since I am about ready to head out the door to bury my father I assume you can take time to check back and read the passages that show what I am saying to be correct.

“The problem however, is that I asked you for passages, and you still don't have many to offer”
I said: “I can show you all the scripture you ask, but it will have to be big posts”, because you had some reservation about big post, so I was waiting for your response.
I do have 1 John 1 ready, in reply to your post on 1 John 1. And it's not that big, so I will put it up.

?????? Now be careful about such false accusations, it only shows a dishonesty in character that I don't think you want your posts to reflect in public. Not only did I present several passages, but I offered an entire book of other passages and all you have offered is a misrepresentation of what I said and some claim to having I John 1 ready to present if I ask you for passages which I already asked you for on the things that you seem off on. Oh, an just for the record, that doesn't mean all the passages that you can find on the topic of who Christ is, it means the passages that support the specific claims you are making that seem to be contrary to what scriptures teaches about the Christ. If all you do is present passages we agree on and are saying the same thing about, the post becomes a cumbersome mess of false accusations about what the other is saying as we see throughout this post.

 

[Jack Terrence]

As being born of a virgin by the HS, I would have to say that Jesus is the begotten Son as well as God in fleshly clothes.

The Greek word "monogenes" means "only" or "unique." All the ancient translations rendered it this way until Jerome. It does not mean only begotten. The "genes" part of the word is silent. Monogenes translates the Hebrew word "yachid" which simply means "only" or "alone." Please note that almost all the modern translations have returned to the ancient definition "only Son."