The reason you can't lose your salvation.

[DeepWater]

Is because you cant be "unborn again".


"but what about where James says that my faith is dead".

Ok, then, tomorrow, or in the next few days, stop backsliding and get right.


"but what if i sin willingly/willfully as there is no more sacrifice for my sins"..

Ok, well, be glad you are not a Hebrew..... and be glad that when you heard the Gospel, you didn't sin willingly or willfully and REJECT CHRIST, because if you do that you have sinned willfully away your chance to be saved, similar as those HEBREWS who were being warned not to do it. (in the letter to the HEBREWS)


"but if im seated in Heavenly Places, cant i be unseated and kicked back to earth".

No, but you can ask a stupid question and apparently not realize it.


"But, if im sealed unto the day of redemption by the HS, cant i unseal it with my dead faith or if i backslide until the day i die, and even tell all my friends that i dont believe any more in Jesus"..

No, but you can become so seared in your conscience that you wont ever again feel the feelings or joy of being saved, and will have a completely dead heart towards God, Jesus, and Christianity in general,... however, that does not kick you out of heaven where you are seated with Jesus, it does not take you out of your "in Christ" position as a Child of God....... but it just proves that you are stupid and will suffer the loss of what you could have had here as the best life God had for you as well as your testimony and perhaps you'll get sick and die much younger then you would have......., and you will also suffer the loss of what you could have had as REWARDS at the Judgement seat of Christ".

"So you mean if im born again, i am now the blood bought property of God until he dies, and i cant undo it with my anti-Christian lifestyle or my dead faith or my willful sinning".

EXACTLY.

 

[Brother Chris]

Yes, we can not "lose" our salvation. The bible does not teach on how to become "un-born" again, unjustified, unsanctified, unredeemed, unforgiven, stripped of the Holy Spirit, becoming spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, etc... The bible doesn't teach this, because it's not possible. Some people might say, "well, you just have to stop following Christ or walk-away and all these things will happen." No, a true born-again Christian will not walk away or stop following Christ. The false doctrine of "losing" salvation comes from not understanding God's sovereign power in salvation and not understanding regeneration.

 

[nobdysfool]

Yes, we can not "lose" our salvation. The bible does not teach on how to become "un-born" again, unjustified, unsanctified, unredeemed, unforgiven, stripped of the Holy Spirit, becoming spiritually dead in trespasses and sins, etc... The bible doesn't teach this, because it's not possible. Some people might say, "well, you just have to stop following Christ or walk-away and all these things will happen." No, a true born-again Christian will not walk away or stop following Christ. The false doctrine of "losing" salvation comes from not understanding God's sovereign power in salvation and not understanding regeneration.

I think a lot of that false teaching comes from the over-glorification of "free will", specifically the idea that man is able to choose anything because he is able to choose some things. At it's core, it is a refusal to submit to the Sovereignty of God in ALL things. They want to hold some little portion of control for themselves, and will fight tooth and nail to preserve it. And then they will sing in church, "I Surrender All" , and not see the disconnect.

 

[Open Heart]

I feel like this is old hat, since I've done this argument since I was 11 and I'm now 53.

1. Scripture clearly states that there is a sin unto death. Commit that sin, and you are spiritually dead, unless you come once more unto repentance.

2. Your free will doesn't disappear once you become a Christian. While God doesn't walk away from you, you can CHOOSE to walk away from God.

These two arguments are irrefutable.

 

[nobdysfool]

I feel like this is old hat, since I've done this argument since I was 11 and I'm now 53.

1. Scripture clearly states that there is a sin unto death. Commit that sin, and you are spiritually dead, unless you come once more unto repentance.

Please explain. The Unforgivable Sin is just that, Unforgivable. Repentance is not possible for that sin. So the sin unto death must be something else, if it can be repented of, and fellowship restored.

2. Your free will doesn't disappear once you become a Christian. While God doesn't walk away from you, you can CHOOSE to walk away from God.

These two arguments are irrefutable.

No one ever said your ability to make choices disappears. That's all free will is. There are limits on free will, based on desire, habit, personal preferences, circumstances, Physics, etc.

If you are truly born again, regenerated with a new heart and sealed with the Holy Spirit, why would you want to walk away from God? This is arguing for an ability which makes no sense.

If you best friend, or you wife (or husband) said they were going to walk away from God, would you just let them go? Or would you try your utmost to get them to change their mind? If you did so, would you not be attempting to interfere with their so-called "free will choice"? Why is it OK for us to do that, but if someone suggests that God would dare to change their heart, and in so doing change their desires, people are up in arms about a "tyrant God" who would do such a thing, and accuse those who believe in that way that they serve and evil god who has no respect for free will, and makes men into "robots".

The root of the problem is that men will allow God to be anywhere, doing anything, but they resist the idea of Him being on His throne, as Sovereign. And man's so-called free will is subject to God's over-arching and over-riding Sovereignty.

 

[bling]

Is because you cant be "unborn again".


"but what about where James says that my faith is dead".

Ok, then, tomorrow, or in the next few days, stop backsliding and get right.


"but what if i sin willingly/willfully as there is no more sacrifice for my sins"..

Ok, well, be glad you are not a Hebrew..... and be glad that when you heard the Gospel, you didn't sin willingly or willfully and REJECT CHRIST, because if you do that you have sinned willfully away your chance to be saved, similar as those HEBREWS who were being warned not to do it. (in the letter to the HEBREWS)


"but if im seated in Heavenly Places, cant i be unseated and kicked back to earth".

No, but you can ask a stupid question and apparently not realize it.


"But, if im sealed unto the day of redemption by the HS, cant i unseal it with my dead faith or if i backslide until the day i die, and even tell all my friends that i dont believe any more in Jesus"..

No, but you can become so seared in your conscience that you wont ever again feel the feelings or joy of being saved, and will have a completely dead heart towards God, Jesus, and Christianity in general,... however, that does not kick you out of heaven where you are seated with Jesus, it does not take you out of your "in Christ" position as a Child of God....... but it just proves that you are stupid and will suffer the loss of what you could have had here as the best life God had for you as well as your testimony and perhaps you'll get sick and die much younger then you would have......., and you will also suffer the loss of what you could have had as REWARDS at the Judgement seat of Christ".

"So you mean if im born again, i am now the blood bought property of God until he dies, and i cant undo it with my anti-Christian lifestyle or my dead faith or my willful sinning".

EXACTLY.

Heb. 12: 15 See to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” spring up and cause trouble, and by it the many become defiled; 16 that no one be immoral or irreligious like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal.


The Hebrew writer uses the analogy of a birthright for what we still have to inherit with heaven. A birthright cannot be stolen, lost, or taken away, but the new born child can give it up.


Gal. 6: 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.


The “harvest” of sowing after the Spirit is “eternal life” and Paul warns us not to “give up” or we will be giving up the harvest.

 

[Hillsage]

I feel like this is old hat, since I've done this argument since I was 11 and I'm now 53.

1. Scripture clearly states that there is a sin unto death.

Only in one gospel, the other gospel elaborates;

Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

No mention of the age, following 'the age to come'.

Commit that sin, and you are spiritually dead, unless you come once more unto repentance.

Killing a spirit would be the equivalent of killing a ghost...can't happen. Killing the soul is another issue though.

2. Your free will doesn't disappear once you become a Christian.

Or, maybe it wasn't "free" to begin with.
JOH 8:32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

And whose 'free will' helps you to get 'free'?

PHI 2:13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

While God doesn't walk away from you, you can CHOOSE to walk away from God.

And, after your spirit is born into the family of God, when you walk away (like the prodigal son) whose son are you? Still His IMO. Even though you are dead in soulish fellowship, your spirit's relationship is still born again OSAS.

These two arguments are irrefutable.

Until now?

 

[Open Heart]

Only in one gospel, the other gospel elaborates;

Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

No mention of the age, following 'the age to come'.
Killing a spirit would be the equivalent of killing a ghost...can't happen. Killing the soul is another issue though.

Spiritual death has to do with missing out on eternal life with Christ. It means being cast into the lake of fire.

Or, maybe it wasn't "free" to begin with.

So YOU don't believe in free will. That's pretty sad; you believe we are robots. Your God wants automatons. My God wants children.

 

[Open Heart]

Please explain. The Unforgivable Sin is just that, Unforgivable. Repentance is not possible for that sin. So the sin unto death must be something else, if it can be repented of, and fellowship restored.

The sin unto death is not the same thing as the unforgiveable sin. A sin unto death is any sin that severs your relationship with God, such as murder, pedophilia, rape, etc. We're not talking about losing your patience with your teenagers.

If you are truly born again, regenerated with a new heart and sealed with the Holy Spirit, why would you want to walk away from God? This is arguing for an ability which makes no sense.

It may seem irrational, but people do it. Sin in general is irrational, yet people sin all the time. I walked away from God for a long time. It was death. Why did I deny Christ? Because I lusted after something I could not have as a Christian.

If you best friend, or you wife (or husband) said they were going to walk away from God, would you just let them go? Or would you try your utmost to get them to change their mind? If you did so, would you not be attempting to interfere with their so-called "free will choice"? Why is it OK for us to do that, but if someone suggests that God would dare to change their heart, and in so doing change their desires, people are up in arms about a "tyrant God" who would do such a thing, and accuse those who believe in that way that they serve and evil god who has no respect for free will, and makes men into "robots".

Trying to persuade someone is not the same thing as forcing them to stay. And ultimately, despite all the persuasion, they may STILL choose to leave, and there is nothing you can do about it.

The prodigal son left, and scripture says he was DEAD to the Father. If one accepts the story of the prodigal son, one has to accept the truth that God voluntarily puts limits on his own sovereignity for the sake of our free will. That is not the same thing as saying God is not sovereign. It means God has made a choice of his own, and this is what God values: children rather than robots.[/QUOTE]

 

[nobdysfool]

Spiritual death has to do with missing out on eternal life with Christ. It means being cast into the lake of fire.

Spiritual death is a misnomer. The spirit is not dead, it is just not in fellowship with God.

So YOU don't believe in free will. That's pretty sad; you believe we are robots. Your God wants automatons. My God wants children.

Believing in free will makes it sound like a religious experience. Your reply is insulting, because you seem to think that either we have "free will" or we are robots. Define what you mean by free will, because it has a lot of different definitions. Do you believe there are limits on free will? Does God's will trump man's will? This isn't as black or white as you want to make it.

And please, stop accusing people of being robots, and saying "your God wants ___" No one here believes any such thing.

 

[seekingsolace]

The sin unto death is not the same thing as the unforgiveable sin. A sin unto death is any sin that severs your relationship with God, such as murder, pedophilia, rape, etc.

But murder, rape and pillaging is fine if the Church forgives you?

 

[Open Heart]

But murder, rape and pillaging is fine if the Church forgives you?

The church (speaking for God) cannot forgive you unless you truly repent. That means turning away from your sin and turning back to God's ways. It also means making amends for your sins. You must also endure the temporal punishments for your sins, if not in this life, then in the next. That may mean jailtime or even execution, loss of family and friends, etc.

When is sin ever ok? Isn't the nature of sin that it is not okay?

 

[seekingsolace]

What if said Church endorsed those sins, do they still have the power to forgive?

 

[Hillsage]

Spiritual death has to do with missing out on eternal life with Christ. It means being cast into the lake of fire.

That's your opinion, but I don't see it backed by scripture, other than by assumption. Scripture even says it is the body that dies when the spirit departs. And if the lake of fire is simply our God who is a consuming fire then I guess we'll all see things more clearly after the logs burn up.

So YOU don't believe in free will. That's pretty sad; you believe we are robots. Your God wants automatons. My God wants children.

Can you name me one child who ever decided he was going to be conceived and born into a family? I wasn't...neither in my earthly flesh family or my heavenly spirit family. Maybe some simply think like Nicodemus thought, when Jesus rebuked him for not understanding the 'earthly things' and therefore even negated his ability to speak correctly of 'heavenly things', like the spirit's re-birth.

JOH 3:12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

As to 'free will' whose will is spoken of here, in context, concerning being 'born' into the family of God?

John 3:8 The wind/SPIRIT blows where IT WILLS, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; so it is with every one who is born of the Spirit."

And, in context, whose will determines this being "born" into the family of God?

JOH 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[Open Heart]

Spiritual death is a misnomer. The spirit is not dead, it is just not in fellowship with God.

To be out of fellowship with God is to be spiritually dead, to be left out of eternity with him, to be thrown into the lake of fire. It is no small thing.

Believing in free will makes it sound like a religious experience. Your reply is insulting, because you seem to think that either we have "free will" or we are robots. Define what you mean by free will, because it has a lot of different definitions. Do you believe there are limits on free will? Does God's will trump man's will? This isn't as black or white as you want to make it.

And please, stop accusing people of being robots, and saying "your God wants ___" No one here believes any such thing.

I'm sorry you don't like my opinion, but it is what it is. It is free will or robots. Either you make your own choices or you are programmed. God's will trumps all, but part of God's will is that we have free will, so God steps aside so that we can make free choices without his interference. I thought I was clear on this before. I'm not sure how to word this any differently.

And sure there are things that interfere with free will: our genetics, our environment, anything coercive... Sometimes these things can be so strong as to nearly wipe out free will, i.e. in cases of addiction. But ultimately we are responsible because we choose.

That is why God is justified in judging us. If we did not freely choose what we did, judgment would be cruel and sensless.

 

[seekingsolace]

And sure there are things that interfere with free will: our genetics, our environment, anything coercive... Sometimes these things can be so strong as to nearly wipe out free will, i.e. in cases of addiction. But ultimately we are responsible because we choose.

Do you choose your genetics?

 

[DeepWater]

Ok, let me keep this simple so that it does not attract a throng of rabbit trails

If you read your Old Testament, and are familiar with Gods dealing with the Jews, then you recall that once a year the High Priest went into the Holy of Holies, and if he was accept by God then the People were accepted-covered- for a year........and if the Hight Priest was not accepted.... then the jews pulled him out by a rope attached to his dead ankles.
So, THAT was how the "people" the "jews" were deemed accepted or not under the Old Covenant.
It was completely based on IF their High Priest was accepted or not.
It had NOTHING to do with their behavior or their tithing or their church membership or their lack of "dead faith".
It was wholly and completely God's estimation of the High Priest that translated into an acceptance of the "people" or NOT.

So, lets now turn to the New Testament and a "better covenant"
God has created a Salvation, and it is based similarly on a >Eternal< High Priest who has entered "once and for all" into the Holy of Holies, and God has now eternally accepted US based completely and only on this eternal High Priest. > Jesus.
NOW, did you get that?
Did you see it?
Do you follow that God is accepting YOU based NOT ON YOU. ??
He cant base forgiving you on you, because you have already sinned away your ability to be deemed "righteous", of yourself.
Literally, if you stopped sinning from here till eternity, it wont matter, as you have already sinned so many times, already.
So, any chance of you being able to save yourself or keep yourself saved, is gone.........long......gone........and any chance of God accepting you based on your righteousness is long long long gone.

And that is why you have to be saved.
Its because you cant save yourself and you cant keep yourself saved.
You cant do it, so stop trying and thereby be a lot more successful in your pursuit of what makes God happy.
Listen, You have to have a substitute who dies in your place for your entire lifetime of sinning, and who gives you HIS Righteousness so that God will then accept you, = based ONLY on HIM and HIS Righteousness.
Otherwise, you cant be accepted, ever.

And the issue some Christians have, is that they get caught up in the idea that What God did for them, through Jesus, is somehow completed by their subsequent lifestyle.
Its not.
Salvation is completed only because Jesus has completed HIS work for you, and God has accepted you based ONLY on this, and nothing else.
Jesus, is God himself dying on a Cross so that HE can solve your lost condition once and for all.

 

[nobdysfool]

To be out of fellowship with God is to be spiritually dead, to be left out of eternity with him, to be thrown into the lake of fire. It is no small thing.

I didn't say it was.

I'm sorry you don't like my opinion, but it is what it is. It is free will or robots. Either you make your own choices or you are programmed. God's will trumps all, but part of God's will is that we have free will, so God steps aside so that we can make free choices without his interference. I thought I was clear on this before. I'm not sure how to word this any differently.

So, everything is filtered through the test of free will. Do you not realize that God, in creating this world as He did, set into motion a long, complicated, convoluted series of events, actions, and situations that are unfolding and happening as He Foreknew, and stepping in where He needs to to keep it moving toward the end He determined? Do you not understand the law of cause and effect? Do you not understand that free will choices do not happen in a vacuum, they are based on what has gone before, and will cause what comes after?

God Foreknew every choice you would make before you even existed. His knowing that does not mean He caused you to make those choices, you freely made them, but they were foreknown and accounted for by God, and you cannot deviate from what He foreknew. You are not in any way constrained or coerced into making any choice you make, yet those choices, once made were the only ones you could have made, given God's foreknowledge of them. It's not free will or robots, that is hogwash, and a failure to understand what the issue really is. it's not either you make your own choices or you are programmed. That is a false and simplistic paradigm.

And sure there are things that interfere with free will: our genetics, our environment, anything coercive... Sometimes these things can be so strong as to nearly wipe out free will, i.e. in cases of addiction. But ultimately we are responsible because we choose.

That is why God is justified in judging us. If we did not freely choose what we did, judgment would be cruel and sensless.

I encourage you to spend some time studying about the will. Luther's "Bondage of the Will" would be a good place to start.

 

[Hillsage]

Do you choose your genetics?

Actually the Genome Project pretty much concluded that there is a lot of truth to that very fact. We have the genes for numerous traits, such as eye colors, all contained in the coding of a gene. But the epigenetic factor is the switching mechanism which determines which 'trait' gets switched on, and your 'thinking' and 'environment' have a lot to do with that. My brother was visiting from Idaho recently and said he was overseas, for the first time in a couple of years, and the guards kept looking at his passport with obvious concern. He was stumped and told his daughter about it when he got home. She looked at his passport and said "Dad your eyes aren't brown anymore...they're blue". The change was so gradual he hadn't even noticed it himself.

 

[Open Heart]

nobdysfool:
We agree on one thing: foreknowledge doesn't knock out free will. After that, what you said seemed like only so much talking without saying much.