The prosperity gospel and the recession

[tadoflamb]

Of course not. You are not responsible for the actions of those you try to help.( or anybody else for that matter)

That's how I see it.

This is a problem our church, and my husband in particular, are trying to deal with. A man in the area can't/won't hold a job and is always looking for handouts. He apparently is smart enough to know not to go to the same church two months in a row and has a route of 3-5 that he hits up. My husband has tried to help him get a decent job, has helped with transportation, tried to get him involved at church (unsuccessfully) but nothing ever seems to change. He called the church a couple of weeks ago for help getting the power turned back on, again. What gets me is he bought a car, but says he can't afford to get it registered, and bought a mobile home (not the best shape), but can't afford to pay bills.The only times he wants to go to church is when there is food involved. Then he packs up 3 dinners (for the family) and hangs around waiting to see if there are any leftovers he can have. I feel for the guys little girl and pray that someone will find the help he really needs, but sometimes I feel he is a lazy guy who would rather con people out of money and food than actually work for it.

There's that tricky little quote from St. Paul in one of his letters to the Thessalonians

If a man does not work, a man does not eat

There's a line somewhere between charity and welfare and we seem to bouncing around there quite a bit. We realize the work we do is the work of the Holy Spirit and so we try to let Him be our guide. We don't run into too many folks trying to abuse us, and the way we're set up it's hard to take too much advantage of us. I figure the best someone could do, by living off the various faith based charities is maybe live a couple months.

Food is fairly cheap and easy to come by, it's when we start to pay some big bills when the gift of discernment comes in handy. What I've realized lately is we shouldn't be judging people too much but sharing with them God's mercy. Eventually, you'd think, they'd start to wonder what makes us tick.

That great what you're doing with the blankets. Keep up the good work and may God bless you!

 

[AngelusSax]

I would call it bad stewardship to give to help someone to sin.
(The man HAD already turned down the job offer)

The way the scenario reads, it appeared to me that the man got help, THEN turned down a job offer.

What if the man had turned down a job at a inappropriate content store? Should we then say "sorry, you won't peddle smut, so you don't keep your hut"?

Edit:

Of course, if someone refuses to work, then we must be willing to cut ties, so to speak, and go elsewhere. Help is only help if it'll truly help someone who needs it, not just wants it to be lazy.

 

[sunlover1]

The way the scenario reads, it appeared to me that the man got help, THEN turned down a job offer.

Sorry, I probably didnt relate it clearly.

What if the man had turned down a job at a inappropriate content store? Should we then say "sorry, you won't peddle smut, so you don't keep your hut"?

Hey poet, lol. yeah, that's what I'm asking... do we have a say? Do we
have a responsibility too not to throw good money after bad?
Or do we just give to all who ask (which would be everyone )

Edit:

Of course, if someone refuses to work, then we must be willing to cut ties, so to speak, and go elsewhere. Help is only help if it'll truly help someone who needs it, not just wants it to be lazy.

Yeah, it seems like one of those problems that one must seek God about rather
than just assume that if someone says they have need, that it's our responsibility to meet it.
Then again, sometimes they're so broken from life that they cannot see
what they're doing (they know not what they do) so .... really, imo,
it's a day by day, case by case answer but I'm looking for one pat answer.

I seriously do have one alcoholic who needs somewhere to work and live,
and I feel obligated ...

So I was asking because I've struggled about this, but yet, as usual, procrastinated
in seeking the face of God about it.
true story.


And then my other question would be, what is "rich"?
IMO we're all pretty dang rich (comparatively speaking)

Sitting here, kicking back in a recliner with my new macbook,
drinking fancy coffee in my 'fancy' house wearing a designer
sundress, while there are kids eating garbage within 15 miles
of my house.
Do you have access to your favorite beverage, soft cushy
seating, your own pc, ...maybe air conditioning...?

Does God desire us to prosper as such?
Does he desire that child eating trash to prosper?

Thoughts?

 

[pinetree]

It is the Word of Faith movement.Kenneth Copeland,Joyce Meyer,Jesse DuPlantis and others.

They totally destroy this verses to mean you will be financially rich!

2 Corinthians 8:9
9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you by his poverty might become rich.


Then they use the seeds of 2 Corinthians 9,to get their listeners to send them "faith seeds".Totally omitting the fact that the money Paul was trying to raise,was for struggling saints,not for the leaders to live high on.

2 Cor 9:10 He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness.

Here is the compound of Joyce Meyer..

Creflo Dollar..

Kenneth Copeland...

It makes me think of this verse.


Amplified Bible (AMP)


1 Timothy 6:5

And protracted wrangling and wearing discussion and perpetual friction among men who are corrupted in mind and bereft of the truth, who imagine that godliness or righteousness is a source of profit [a moneymaking business, a means of livelihood]. From such withdraw.

 

[AngelusSax]

And then my other question would be, what is "rich"?
IMO we're all pretty dang rich (comparatively speaking)

Sitting here, kicking back in a recliner with my new macbook,
drinking fancy coffee in my 'fancy' house wearing a designer
sundress, while there are kids eating garbage within 15 miles
of my house.
Do you have access to your favorite beverage, soft cushy
seating, your own pc, ...maybe air conditioning...?

Does God desire us to prosper as such?
Does he desire that child eating trash to prosper?

Thoughts?

Well, no doubt we are rich, comparatively speaking. My own thoughts are muddled on this, and I sway from one side to the other often. I can tell you what a former pastor of mine said in a sermon once, when we were studying the sin of Greed:

Any time we have more than we need and someone else has less than they need, then we are guilty of greed. We don't need two suits, we don't need more than one pair of shoes, etc.

Granted, this pastor convicted himself, admitting to having more than he needs, and went on about how Grace forgives us, etc. But the point is still there that, according to him, having an abundance while others have less than necessary is a sin. (I don't know about having abundance while others have at least what they need).

Doubt that helps, but hope it does.

 

[sunlover1]

Well, no doubt we are rich, comparatively speaking. My own thoughts are muddled on this, and I sway from one side to the other often. I can tell you what a former pastor of mine said in a sermon once, when we were studying the sin of Greed:

Any time we have more than we need and someone else has less than they need, then we are guilty of greed. We don't need two suits, we don't need more than one pair of shoes, etc.

Granted, this pastor convicted himself, admitting to having more than he needs, and went on about how Grace forgives us, etc. But the point is still there that, according to him, having an abundance while others have less than necessary is a sin. (I don't know about having abundance while others have at least what they need).

Doubt that helps, but hope it does.

Thank you for responding.
I thought this story was interesting considering
the subject of this thread.
God gave the riches to Solomon as a reward for
having a heart that desired to serve Him.

6Solomon went up to the bronze altar before the Lord in the Tent of Meeting and offered a thousand burnt offerings on it. 7That night God appeared to Solomon and said to him, “Ask for whatever you want me to give you.”
8Solomon answered God, “You have shown great kindness to David my father and have made me king in his place.
9Now, Lord God, let your promise to my father David be confirmed, for you have made me king over a people who are as numerous as the dust of the earth.

10Give me wisdom and knowledge, that I may lead this people, for who is able to govern this great people of yours?”
11God said to Solomon, “Since this is your heart’s desire and you have not asked for wealth, riches or honor, nor for the death of your enemies, and since you have not asked for a long life but for wisdom and knowledge to govern my people over whom I have made you king,

12therefore wisdom and knowledge will be given you. And I will also give you wealth, riches and honor, such as no king who was before you ever had and none after you will have.”



I've probably muddied the waters too lol

 

[sunlover1]

There's a line somewhere between charity and welfare and we seem to bouncing around there quite a bit. We realize the work we do is the work of the Holy Spirit and so we try to let Him be our guide. We don't run into too many folks trying to abuse us, and the way we're set up it's hard to take too much advantage of us. I figure the best someone could do, by living off the various faith based charities is maybe live a couple months.

Food is fairly cheap and easy to come by, it's when we start to pay some big bills when the gift of discernment comes in handy. What I've realized lately is we shouldn't be judging people too much but sharing with them God's mercy. Eventually, you'd think, they'd start to wonder what makes us tick.

That great what you're doing with the blankets. Keep up the good work and may God bless you!

You're blessed to be a part of that ministry. In my area there is a church
on every corner and I'd like to believe that if I were destitute that I could
knock on any of the doors and be welcomed and fed and clothed just
as by the very hands of Jesus.
Is that hoping for too much?

 

[AngelusSax]

Thank you for responding.
I thought this story was interesting considering
the subject of this thread.
God gave the riches to Solomon as a reward for
having a heart that desired to serve Him.

6Solomon went up to the bronze altar before the Lord in the Tent of Meeting and offered a thousand burnt offerings on it. 7That night God appeared to Solomon and said to him, “Ask for whatever you want me to give you.”
8Solomon answered God, “You have shown great kindness to David my father and have made me king in his place.
9Now, Lord God, let your promise to my father David be confirmed, for you have made me king over a people who are as numerous as the dust of the earth.

10Give me wisdom and knowledge, that I may lead this people, for who is able to govern this great people of yours?”
11God said to Solomon, “Since this is your heart’s desire and you have not asked for wealth, riches or honor, nor for the death of your enemies, and since you have not asked for a long life but for wisdom and knowledge to govern my people over whom I have made you king,

12therefore wisdom and knowledge will be given you. And I will also give you wealth, riches and honor, such as no king who was before you ever had and none after you will have.”

I think the lesson to learn from not just this story, but the totality of Scripture, is that some will have more than others, and God will indeed bless some people as He sees fit with more material riches than others. But that should not be confused with the "name it and claim it" Gospel, or "Prosperity Gospel" as is often preached today. God probably is not going to bless every Christian with a 50-room mansion and a personal jet. A lot of Christians are going to fall in the poor category. The trick is, for those who have much, to make sure they help the poor, the hungry, the naked, etc., so that those who have much do not have too much, and those who have little do not have too little.

As an addendum, notice that in the story of Solomon, he asked for wisdom, then got riches and whatnot in addition to that. The prosperity gospel, as it is preached (and as I understand it) has people asking for the material, rather than wisdom. Therein lies the danger, imo.

 

[sunlover1]

I think the lesson to learn from not just this story, but the totality of Scripture, is that some will have more than others, and God will indeed bless some people as He sees fit with more material riches than others.

Makes great sense to me.
Do you believe then that some have more "favor" with the father and that
He blesses us according to (in part) how we act?
(From a Scriptural standpoint studying the word favor maybe or blessed)

But that should not be confused with the "name it and claim it" Gospel, or "Prosperity Gospel" as is often preached today.

While I do believe that God will bless with material things and in fact have
been the recipient of that, I do not subscribe to the name it claim it group
because imo it's out of balance.
They've twisted the gospel just a bit (imo) causing people to focus on the
gifts rather than the giver.

God probably is not going to bless every Christian with a 50-room mansion and a personal jet.

Hilarious, my pastor just recently mentioned jets..."Should a pastor get a
jet?" "I don't know, where's he going? What's his itinerary? Does he need
a jet? Can he afford it?"
"Hugh Heffner has a jet, nobody boycotting him " Someone has one to
ride around with bunnies, they think it's cute, a pastor gets one to get
to where he's going to preach the gospel and they're like "does he need
a jet?"
"I don't know did he ask you to pay for it?"
Are we majoring in minors? (My pastor doesnt have fancy stuff)
He was talking about religious fig leaves. How you have the group where
you gotta have nice stuff or you're not living by faith, then over there,
you have the other group where if you 'have' nice stuff you're "just using
the Lord".
So one mans religious fig leaf is cheap stuff, and then another's is expensive
stuff.

A lot of Christians are going to fall in the poor category. The trick is, for those who have much, to make sure they help the poor, the hungry, the naked, etc., so that those who have much do not have too much, and those who have little do not have too little.

Amen, and those who can do should help to teach those other how to too.
Equality is very biblical.

As an addendum, notice that in the story of Solomon, he asked for wisdom, then got riches and whatnot in addition to that. The prosperity gospel, as it is preached (and as I understand it) has people asking for the material, rather than wisdom. Therein lies the danger, imo.

It's very sad to watch because in the end the rust and moths eat it up.
I'd rather have the other treasure... which brings both (Like King Solomon)
13Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding. 14For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold.
15She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her.
16Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour.
17Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace.

 

[AngelusSax]

Makes great sense to me.
Do you believe then that some have more "favor" with the father and that
He blesses us according to (in part) how we act?
(From a Scriptural standpoint studying the word favor maybe or blessed)

I'm not sure how much of it is according to how we act versus how much of it is simply God choosing whom God chooses because He is doing something we don't quite realize.

 

[PassthePeace1]

Wonder how well the prosperity gospel works in Bangladesh?

 

[PassthePeace1]

[bible]John 6:27[/bible]

27 Do not work for food that perishes but for the food that endures for eternal life, 15 which the Son of Man will give you. For on him the Father, God, has set his seal."

 

[BrightCandle]

I Love to respond to these threads on Gods attitude about whether or not I should be prosperous.

God has blessed me with 2 luxury cars that I have believed Him for.

During this recession I have gone from being $100000 in debt to being blessed with plus $13500 cash in hand and no debt.

Believe.....Just Believe. Praise Him forever and ever.


Albert Finch

I noted that you reside in Texas, the land where the prosperity Gospel is #1. Joel Osteen's Houston based Mega Church is proof of that. Can you really picture Jesus driving a luxury car? The prosperity Gospel as its being preached throughout Texas is a false Gospel, that cannot not be portrayed in any way, shape, or from by Jesus or the Apostles.

 

[B1inHim]

I guess my complaint with the prosperity gospel is when we do go into people's homes who need our help and you see evidence that they've been giving to these prosperity gospel televangelists. I really have to resist the temptation to have them call the folks they've been donating their disabilty checks to and ask them to pay their rent, utilities, etc.

I ReALLY LIKE this one. I am going to do that and see what they do... thank you

Shalom
Brother Jerry

 

[B1inHim]

Wonder how well the prosperity gospel works in Bangladesh?

IT only works some times and usually BEST for the one who is running it.... probably not in that place though...
Shalom
Brother Jerry

 

[MamaZ]

God will prosper His people in that we are His Children.
Mat 6:25 "For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?
Mat 6:26 "Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they?
Mat 6:27 "And who of you by being worried can add a single hour to his life?
Mat 6:28 "And why are you worried about clothing? Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin,
Mat 6:29 yet I say to you that not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these.
Mat 6:30 "But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith!
Mat 6:31 "Do not worry then, saying, 'What will we eat?' or 'What will we drink?' or 'What will we wear for clothing?'
Mat 6:32 "For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.
Mat 6:33 "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
Mat 6:34 "So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

 

[JimfromOhio]

The Bible says alot about prosperity as well as poverty. Jesus never preached how to be earthly prosperity. The Apostles surely didn't either. My main problem with Word of Faith preachers are using "prosperity" to attract people with itching ears so they will be motivated to do something for themselves rather than sound spiritual docrine.

Benjamin Franklin “The Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself.

There is nothing wrong with having a desire to prosper as long as our motives are correct. Christians' view of money and material possessions is an effective barometer of our spirituality. As Jesus said, "Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also" (Matthew 6:21). In Proverbs 4:23, "Above all else, guard your heart, for it affects everything you do." (NLT) In Proverbs 21:2, "People may think they are doing what is right, but the Lord examines the heart." (NLT)

When Jesus wore a crown of thorns, do you wish to wear a crown of gold? Johann Arndt, *True Christianity*.

 

[MamaZ]

We are not to have our eyes upon what is in the world. For true prosperity is not in worldy goods but in Gods grace and blessings.. It would prosper me more to see one man come to Christ than any car or house or pair of shoes.. For where your heart is there is your treasure.

 

[AngelusSax]

As Jesus said, "Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also" (Matthew 6:21).

What I find interesting is the order of the wording. Most people read this as "Where your heart is, there your treasure will be also." Meaning, they think that where one gives their time, talents, and money is evidence of where their heart is. And this is most certainly true in a lot of instances.

But Jesus was, I believe, teaching here (well... duh, I know). But He was not teaching us to spot where people's hearts are by where they give. No, I believe He was teaching that where we give and affect where are hearts are.

Let's say I have 100 dollars that I can just "throw away" if I so choose. Now, if I give that money to say... Wal-Mart for a video game and maybe the guide book, then my heart is going to be with that video game and guide book. It's what I spent my money on. And in ths case, perhaps that's where my heart was to begin with.

Same 100 dollars. Instead of going with what I want carnally, I decide to listen to God, and give it to, let's say... the church, in my offering for that week. Now, don't you think I'm going to be a little more interested in what's going on at church? I mean, my money that could have given me fleshly pleasure in Madden 10 instead went to the church. All of a sudden, I begin to care what ministries we're doing. How are we helping the poor? Are we providing shelter for the homeless? And so on.

My attention in scenario one was directed at myself, in truth. In scenario 2, my attention was directed at my neighbor through the church, which just might be, in some way, getting my attention on God in the end.

Just a thought though.

 

[sunlover1]

I'm not sure how much of it is according to how we act versus how much of it is simply God choosing whom God chooses because He is doing something we don't quite realize.

Me too. I know that Scripture has a ton to say about finances and favor...
It's putting it all together to see the big picture that's the trick.

Wonder how well the prosperity gospel works in Bangladesh?

My country has been very blessed of God, but is in the process of seeing
the blessing lift due to the turning away from God.
I'd think that same principle would be evident in any area that decides
to submit their lives to the Lordship of Jesus.
Article:

Christianity arrived in what is now Bangladesh during the late sixteenth to early seventeenth century AD, through the Portuguese traders and missionaries. Christians account for approximately 0.3% of the total population,[1] with the largest majorities being Roman Catholic and Orthodox.
In the late 1980s, the government was not imposing any restrictions on the legitimate religious activities of the missions and the communities. Mission schools and hospitals were well attended and were used by members of all religions. The Christian community usually enjoyed better opportunities for education and a better standard of living.In the late 1980s, Christianity had about 600,000 adherents, mainly Roman Catholic, and their numbers were growing rapidly.

Can you really picture Jesus driving a luxury car?

On His solid gold streets? Mmmm, maybe.

The prosperity Gospel as its being preached throughout Texas is a false Gospel, that cannot not be portrayed in any way, shape, or from by Jesus or the Apostles.

Jesus and the apostles were not in any way destitute if they
owned commercial fishing companies and such. Jesus had a treasurer...
But yes, preaching a gospel of seeking wealth seems so impotent.
God has so much more for His children than "filthy lucre"
Much more!

What I find interesting is the order of the wording. Most people read this as "Where your heart is, there your treasure will be also." Meaning, they think that where one gives their time, talents, and money is evidence of where their heart is. And this is most certainly true in a lot of instances.

But Jesus was, I believe, teaching here (well... duh, I know). But He was not teaching us to spot where people's hearts are by where they give. No, I believe He was teaching that where we give and affect where are hearts are.

Let's say I have 100 dollars that I can just "throw away" if I so choose. Now, if I give that money to say... Wal-Mart for a video game and maybe the guide book, then my heart is going to be with that video game and guide book. It's what I spent my money on. And in ths case, perhaps that's where my heart was to begin with.

Same 100 dollars. Instead of going with what I want carnally, I decide to listen to God, and give it to, let's say... the church, in my offering for that week. Now, don't you think I'm going to be a little more interested in what's going on at church? I mean, my money that could have given me fleshly pleasure in Madden 10 instead went to the church. All of a sudden, I begin to care what ministries we're doing. How are we helping the poor? Are we providing shelter for the homeless? And so on.

My attention in scenario one was directed at myself, in truth. In scenario 2, my attention was directed at my neighbor through the church, which just might be, in some way, getting my attention on God in the end.

Just a thought though.

That's awesome AnglusSax! We so often see without understanding
and do things like mindlessly misquote Scriptures or quote them out
of context. I too love to dig for the lightbulb moments. That's the real
treasure isnt it? knowledge of our Lord and His ways.
Thanks much for sharing this!