The problem with Bethel/Redding..

ToBeLoved

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It seems to me that one of the more terrifying reaches that NAR has is through IHoP, especially considering the political clout which it has in the US.

-CryptoLutheran
Let us not forget all the NAR headquarters located in Colorado Springs. Look at the World Prayer Center. and how much informatation comes through there. All the spiritual mapping done in cities and areas. All the information on people not in their group. The missionaries that report information through their computer and database, part of the same huge building as one of the first mega churches New Life formerly pastored by Ted Haggard, former President of the National Evangelical Association (2003-2006) one of the largest Christian organizations in the world and world-wide influence. Ted Haggard and Peter Wagner also co-founded the World Prayer Center. Disgraced Pastor Ted Haggard who was found as a drug addict and hired male prostitutes for homosexual sex. Peter Wagner also was one of the 5 people that ordained Todd Bentley along with famous prophet Rick Joyner.

It is a rabbit hole in high places.
 
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sunlover1

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The key to that is that NAR believes in dominionism and a restoration of the 10 commandments as the law of the lands. They believe that before 'Jesus will return' in the second coming that THEY have to restore all governments to Old Testament law, including our own.

It's scary
Well that's goofy!
Sounds like another cult.
never heard of NAR outside of here.
This is why everyone needs to study for themselves!
Otherwise it's easy for someone to come along and
convince you that this or that is true. IMO
 
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ToBeLoved

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Well that's goofy!
Sounds like another cult.
never heard of NAR outside of here.
This is why everyone needs to study for themselves!
Otherwise it's easy for someone to come along and
convince you that this or that is true. IMO
:oldthumbsup:

I think there is a verse that says "Be wise as serpents, gentle as doves"
 
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SnowyMacie

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No doctrine...
produces false converts.


As someone who has been apart of a Bethel-esque church that regularly sends a group to IHOP's conference every year is they are fact not a Christian church. The group that I know was probably not a Christian church as they felt the need to convert other Christians to their correct form of Christianity, which in reality was really no different other than how they worded things (they were not as extreme as Bethel). For example, I once saw a facebook status that read "Come to the library at 6 to hear the best news ever!" This was directed at fellow students at our Christian university to hear the gospel. I thought "You mean the news that 100% of the people on this campus have heard and 90% believe?". What really got me out of them was that the "spiritual high" is a real high, and it's even been scientifically proven now that charismatic worship creates a chemical reaction in the brain to give someone a dopamine high. I realized that the point of my worshiped was more about achieving that high than actually worshiping God.
 
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sunlover1

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As someone who has been apart of a Bethel-esque church that regularly sends a group to IHOP's conference every year is they are fact not a Christian church. The group that I know was probably not a Christian church as they felt the need to convert other Christians to their correct form of Christianity, which in reality was really no different other than how they worded things (they were not as extreme as Bethel). For example, I once saw a facebook status that read "Come to the library at 6 to hear the best news ever!" This was directed at fellow students at our Christian university to hear the gospel. I thought "You mean the news that 100% of the people on this campus have heard and 90% believe?". What really got me out of them was that the "spiritual high" is a real high, and it's even been scientifically proven now that charismatic worship creates a chemical reaction in the brain to give someone a dopamine high. I realized that the point of my worshiped was more about achieving that high than actually worshiping God.
"Charismatic worship"?
DO you mean raising your hands and closing your eyes and singing and dancing before God??
 
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sunlover1

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Yeah, that was not the best word to use. I'm sure he didn't mean much by it.
I'm trying to find out exactly what he means.
Raising your hands while worshiping and closing your eyes,
is surely not evil in any way, so it will be good to know what
he meant :)
 
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ToBeLoved

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I'm trying to find out exactly what he means.
Raising your hands while worshiping and closing your eyes,
is surely not evil in any way, so it will be good to know what
he meant :)

That's true. Sorry, I'll butt out.
 
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ViaCrucis

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"Charismatic worship"?
DO you mean raising your hands and closing your eyes and singing and dancing before God??

None of those things in and of themselves are problematic.

What is problematic is the way in which certain churches have built their service around the intent to emotionally and psychologically manipulate people. That's not inherent or unique to Charismaticism, but it is a frequent problem within Charismaticism.

Being moved emotionally in worship isn't a problem. Constructing a service that is built to intentionally get people to feel a certain way is a problem.

I am frequently moved in worship, and it's rare that I don't get at least a little emotional when I receive the Lord's Supper. So it's not being moved emotionally that many of us are concerned with. It's things like the following:


Here are some issues:

The entire experience is orchestrated. The feelings that can be had in the video above can be had simply by attending a concert.


See? Now I'm not slamming on concerts, but the rush, the excitement, the ecstatic feelings of oneness that is felt when you get a swell of people all singing and moving together--those are all the things that happen at a concert, it's human psychology.

That doesn't mean that the people leading worship in this way are intentionally trying to manipulate people, from their perspective it's really that it "works", it's a form of pragmatism that descends from 19th century Revivalism and the New Measures put forth by revivalist preachers such as Charles Finney. It's pragmatism in the sense that over time certain things seem to "work" that result in people responding a certain way, this results in the construction of worship forms that have a high degree of getting the desired results. The desired results are: people feeling a closeness to God and each other, people coming forward to "accept Jesus" due to the experience, people "rededicating themselves to Christ" due to the experience, the continued reaffirmation that this is the work of God and the Holy Spirit's presence, etc.

Now there are issues with the above, certainly, and much could be said. But to continue I would also like to add the problem of, well, let's call it Contemporary Evangelical Mysticism. The problem with Contemporary Evangelical Mysticism can be described briefly,

There is a confusion of Law and Gospel due to a failure to rightly discern between the Naked God and the Clothed God. That is, the God of Glory and the God of the Cross. Throughout Scripture it is made absolutely clear that sinful man cannot endure God's glory, if God is naked it means our utter destruction, God says to Moses, "No man can see Me and live." God passes Moses by and lets Moses only see His "backside" and just this is enough so that when Moses comes down from the mountain his face shone with such brilliance that he required a veil to cover his face so as to not blind anyone. The continued refrain again and again is that men come into contact with even a fraction of the divine glory they are terrified, they are filled with dread, even just an encounter with an angel, one of God's servants, is enough to make men fall prostrate in absolute terror. And so consistently God comes to us through means, through mediation.

And that is what we have in Christ, God clothed in the humility and weakness of human nature, revealing Himself to us through the weakness of the crucified Jesus, by the way of the cross.

This is a matter of Law and Gospel because the Law which reveals the pure, perfect righteousness of God damns us, condemns us, it demonstrates our sins and our faults and before the Law we stand utterly condemned by the righteous God beholding Him in His wrath kindled toward us. Not as though God were an angry thunder-wielding giant in the sky, but rather we can only see the terrible Judge who with righteousness judges us. The naked God in His glory is the Righteous One who, in His presence, we shake and tremble and behold in terror. It is, instead, God coming to us by the Means of the Incarnation, offering Himself in love, humility, service, kindness, and compassion and we see God as He would have us see Him, to know Him as the loving Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. That is to see God in faith, to see God through the grace of His Son, through the Word of His Gospel.

A fundamental problem is that Contemporary Evangelical Mysticism results in not preaching the God of the Cross, the God who comes to us through Means, who is presented to us in the Person of the Crucified and Risen Jesus, encountered through Word and Sacrament; but in the desire for a "direct encounter", to experience the Glory directly because there seems to be a confusion, a failure to recognize our sin perhaps, or a failure to consider what it means to speak of God in His Holy Glory as Terrifying and Terrible. And as such it results in a rejection of the Gospel, the focus is not on what God has done for us through Christ, given to us through the preaching of that Word and through the Sacraments instituted for our benefit; instead it is on circumventing God's Means and to try and reach God through our own way, namely, by the Law. That as though if we do X, Y, and Z we can attain this thing we want, and this thing we want is God and the encounter with God.

Of course, we can't. But that doesn't stop us from thinking we can, and thinking we have. And so we trying to circumvent the Means which God has given to come down and meet us where we are, we try and ascend to meet Him and--failing because we can't--we trick ourselves into thinking we have because of certain experiences and feelings we have attained. That's idolatry, certainly, but it's more tragic than simply being idolatrous we have so completely been led away from the pure Gospel of the Cross and have glomped onto an empty nothing.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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SnowyMacie

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None of those things in and of themselves are problematic.

What is problematic is the way in which certain churches have built their service around the intent to emotionally and psychologically manipulate people. That's not inherent or unique to Charismaticism, but it is a frequent problem within Charismaticism.

Being moved emotionally in worship isn't a problem. Constructing a service that is built to intentionally get people to feel a certain way is a problem.

I am frequently moved in worship, and it's rare that I don't get at least a little emotional when I receive the Lord's Supper. So it's not being moved emotionally that many of us are concerned with. It's things like the following:


Here are some issues:

The entire experience is orchestrated. The feelings that can be had in the video above can be had simply by attending a concert.


See? Now I'm not slamming on concerts, but the rush, the excitement, the ecstatic feelings of oneness that is felt when you get a swell of people all singing and moving together--those are all the things that happen at a concert, it's human psychology.

That doesn't mean that the people leading worship in this way are intentionally trying to manipulate people, from their perspective it's really that it "works", it's a form of pragmatism that descends from 19th century Revivalism and the New Measures put forth by revivalist preachers such as Charles Finney. It's pragmatism in the sense that over time certain things seem to "work" that result in people responding a certain way, this results in the construction of worship forms that have a high degree of getting the desired results. The desired results are: people feeling a closeness to God and each other, people coming forward to "accept Jesus" due to the experience, people "rededicating themselves to Christ" due to the experience, the continued reaffirmation that this is the work of God and the Holy Spirit's presence, etc.

Now there are issues with the above, certainly, and much could be said. But to continue I would also like to add the problem of, well, let's call it Contemporary Evangelical Mysticism. The problem with Contemporary Evangelical Mysticism can be described briefly,

There is a confusion of Law and Gospel due to a failure to rightly discern between the Naked God and the Clothed God. That is, the God of Glory and the God of the Cross. Throughout Scripture it is made absolutely clear that sinful man cannot endure God's glory, if God is naked it means our utter destruction, God says to Moses, "No man can see Me and live." God passes Moses by and lets Moses only see His "backside" and just this is enough so that when Moses comes down from the mountain his face shone with such brilliance that he required a veil to cover his face so as to not blind anyone. The continued refrain again and again is that men come into contact with even a fraction of the divine glory they are terrified, they are filled with dread, even just an encounter with an angel, one of God's servants, is enough to make men fall prostrate in absolute terror. And so consistently God comes to us through means, through mediation.

And that is what we have in Christ, God clothed in the humility and weakness of human nature, revealing Himself to us through the weakness of the crucified Jesus, by the way of the cross.

This is a matter of Law and Gospel because the Law which reveals the pure, perfect righteousness of God damns us, condemns us, it demonstrates our sins and our faults and before the Law we stand utterly condemned by the righteous God beholding Him in His wrath kindled toward us. Not as though God were an angry thunder-wielding giant in the sky, but rather we can only see the terrible Judge who with righteousness judges us. The naked God in His glory is the Righteous One who, in His presence, we shake and tremble and behold in terror. It is, instead, God coming to us by the Means of the Incarnation, offering Himself in love, humility, service, kindness, and compassion and we see God as He would have us see Him, to know Him as the loving Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. That is to see God in faith, to see God through the grace of His Son, through the Word of His Gospel.

A fundamental problem is that Contemporary Evangelical Mysticism results in not preaching the God of the Cross, the God who comes to us through Means, who is presented to us in the Person of the Crucified and Risen Jesus, encountered through Word and Sacrament; but in the desire for a "direct encounter", to experience the Glory directly because there seems to be a confusion, a failure to recognize our sin perhaps, or a failure to consider what it means to speak of God in His Holy Glory as Terrifying and Terrible. And as such it results in a rejection of the Gospel, the focus is not on what God has done for us through Christ, given to us through the preaching of that Word and through the Sacraments instituted for our benefit; instead it is on circumventing God's Means and to try and reach God through our own way, namely, by the Law. That as though if we do X, Y, and Z we can attain this thing we want, and this thing we want is God and the encounter with God.

Of course, we can't. But that doesn't stop us from thinking we can, and thinking we have. And so we trying to circumvent the Means which God has given to come down and meet us where we are, we try and ascend to meet Him and--failing because we can't--we trick ourselves into thinking we have because of certain experiences and feelings we have attained. That's idolatry, certainly, but it's more tragic than simply being idolatrous we have so completely been led away from the pure Gospel of the Cross and have glomped onto an empty nothing.

-CryptoLutheran
This is what I meant.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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Of course, we can't. But that doesn't stop us from thinking we can, and thinking we have. And so we trying to circumvent the Means which God has given to come down and meet us where we are, we try and ascend to meet Him and--failing because we can't--we trick ourselves into thinking we have because of certain experiences and feelings we have attained. That's idolatry, certainly, but it's more tragic than simply being idolatrous we have so completely been led away from the pure Gospel of the Cross and have glomped onto an empty nothing.

Great post. I pulled this section because it speaks of the idolatry involved in this type of thing. It's paganism, and for the reasons you've so eloquently described. Bethel Redding may be an extreme case, but this stuff is now everywhere.

What it does is attempt to peer into Heaven at the naked God (Luther said something like this, but I'm botching it). It's an attempt to circumvent the cross, and get right back into the Garden.
 
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sunlover1

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None of those things in and of themselves are problematic.
No not at all.
Sheesh, did ya have to write a book?
I am one of those who feels obliged to
answer every question. yikes!

What is problematic is the way in which certain churches have built their service around the intent to emotionally and psychologically manipulate people. That's not inherent or unique to Charismaticism, but it is a frequent problem within Charismaticism.

Being moved emotionally in worship isn't a problem. Constructing a service that is built to intentionally get people to feel a certain way is a problem.
Now I see no problem at all with it and I will tell you why.
we're all different and we all worship differently.
I have no problem with the sects that use chanting.
it too is orchestrated, and I could come up with a gzillion
very holy sounding reasons I'm opposed to it. I'm sure
you've heard some if you've been here a while :)
But yeah, PLANNING worship, such as liturgy, is fine
with me. and emotions involved, no problem. Gosh I
worship Him with every flippin bit of myself! lf only i
could play keys so I could jam Him out some melody!
I want to dance for Him, I want to climb out of my
skin sometimes to get closer.
Forgive my words, I am using what i have available, but
I'm sure there would be better ways to say what I try to
convey here.
It's VERY emotional. Gosh our love is,, it's indescribable..
Song of Songsesque..
So that part is okie dokie with me.
Heck, if i could go to a rock concert and get all worked up
for the devils team, how much more am I going to get
worked up for His? He created me with this passion!
I think He loves to see us passionate for Him. Just my opinion :)
but it's how He created us, not all people express it outwardly,
but that doesn't mean they're any less passionate. anymore
than it would mean that those of us who do are any less
holy (sanctified) imo.

See? Now I'm not slamming on concerts, but the rush, the excitement, the ecstatic feelings of oneness that is felt when you get a swell of people all singing and moving together--those are all the things that happen at a concert, it's human psychology.
oh i highly doubt its simply human psychology.
I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it's spiritual in nature,
not in a good way though! There are just some places
we shouldnt be, imo. That being said, I did see the
Eagles last summer. *shrugs.

Okay, that was a LOT of typing!
I will try to get to the rest of it tomorrow or
later if i can. :)
 
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Traveling teacher

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i have been in and out of charsmatic churches and now i am visiting ag

this girl reminds me of the slave demonic girl in philipi
also this crosses over from emotions to the demonic....
i bellieve they are operating in a drug spirit...
looks exactly like the drug spirits in the hippies in the 60s

interesting this is in ca that legalized marijuana......
many of these youuth may have done drugs and not been completely deluvered....
just high from a familiar spirit rather than drugs.......

i shud know this spirit as i did drugs back in my 20s and was delivered.....
but can recognize the spirit

also there is a link that shows
shows some of this comes from religions in india and china.....

i heard a prominent preachwr perry stome say that the #1 spirit of deception in the us is a pharmacitiacal spirit
 
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Hearingheart

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Because these teachings are evil and should be exposed.

Well I agree, however, I'm not going to read seven pages that are from a more than a year old thread. Don't understand why you didn't just start a new one.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Well I agree, however, I'm not going to read seven pages that are from a more than a year old thread. Don't understand why you didn't just start a new one.
There is history here though and it seems pretty thorough so if ppl want the taking points of why people are against it at least there is that background.

I don't think we need to rehash things always and there are people now who weren't here then, so hopefully more people will participate and be able to view the past posts.

Most topics I would agree a new thread but ones like this that don't happen often and that people look things up are valuable in that that is information that might not happen the second time.

Does this make sense?
 
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