The Problem of Evil (and Suffering)

[Grumpy Old Man]

A common argument for disbelieve in a personal deity (a God who intervenes in human affairs) is the extent of suffering on this earth. It's one of the reasons I became an atheist, and I've yet to hear good arguments from Christians that convince me God exists, loves us and yet can somehow tolerate the magnitude of human and animal suffering that exists on earth.

One argument Christians use is that suffering, in the grand scheme of things, works out in our favour. Romans 8:28 is usually the reasoning behind this thinking;

Romans 8:28
New International Version (NIV)

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[a] have been called according to his purpose.

But this does not cover animal suffering. Watch any nature programme and observe how animals slaughter each other for food. Or observe, from news stories, how famine, disease and other natural disasters affect animals as well as humans. So what purpose does their suffering serve? This wiki page tells how lions kill their prey. What does a zebra learn from being slowly strangled to death whilst being eaten? How does this serve God's interests?

Furthermore, if suffering is some kind of path to enlightenment, then why do humans feel compelled to alleviate this suffering? Aren't we sinning by going to the doctor if we're sick? Or by giving to charity to help the poor?

Another argument Christians use is that we would not know good were it not for the existence of evil. Some apologists assert that we can see God's goodness more clearly once we've known evil and suffering. But don't Christians believe in a heaven were suffering and evil are absent? So this argument is flawed.

In essence, why should I believe in a personal God who cares for me when human existence strongly suggests that such a being does not exist?

 

[Bear.Fr00t]

Let's make sure we understand where all this suffering and evil began (according to the Bible). All suffering on the earth can be traced back to the fall of man in the garden of Eden. Before this happened, there was no death and suffering on the earth. When God makes the new heavens and the new earth, suffering and death will no longer exist. The lamb will lay with the lion, says the Bible. Until then, the suffering and evil on earth is because of man's sin, plain and simple.

I'm sure you will have an issue with this, and I can't say I understand completely and I'm thrilled with the way things turned out. But IF the Bible is God's word (I know it is), then this is what it says, so we have to just deal with what the world has become not completely understand why God does it the way He does. God has a plan, and is working toward that plan, even when we don't understand the plan.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Let's make sure we understand where all this suffering and evil began (according to the Bible). All suffering on the earth can be traced back to the fall of man in the garden of Eden. Before this happened, there was no death and suffering on the earth. When God makes the new heavens and the new earth, suffering and death will no longer exist. The lamb will lay with the lion, says the Bible. Until then, the suffering and evil on earth is because of man's sin, plain and simple.

There are numerous problems with this view. For example, how did sin affect animal life in such a way that it caused animals to start killing each other for food? What did animals eat before The Fall? Examine any predator's teeth and you will find that they are designed for tearing the flesh of their prey. To suggest sin caused animals to start killing each other is to suggest that previously they all ate fruit and vegetables, then suddenly developed the biological facilities necessary for the hunting of weaker species.

Whereas evolution answers the question of species slaughter quite easily, the Christian paradigm (especially the Biblical-literalist viewpoint you assert above) does not. Animals would have had to evolve completely in ONE generation in order for animal life to have been affected by sin. Furthermore, how did the sin of two people suddenly cause harmful bacteria, germs and viruses to spring into being? Can this be demonstrated?

Sorry, but I just have so many issues with the literal view of creationism that I could go on forever. I've even debated some of them on this forum before, such as why would God create Ichneumon Wasps.

 

[Lukaris]

It is a problem for us & this world is overall a cruel place in which few have been blessed by God to live in with some happiness. We have faith that God has already redeemed us through His Son Jesus Christ but we are still in often painful motion towards what God has promised us in His redemption of us. We who are blessed must in some small way help our neighbor in some small selfless fashion (basic deeds usually, evangelism for those further called etc.), always examining our conscience before God & pray for our own & our neighbors' redemption. The problems can be discussed & never resolved, we must see the resolution in redemption & assist in the healing that is actually taking place amidst much sadness before us.

 

[jesusssfreeek]

bye

 

[jesusssfreeek]

bye

 

[Bear.Fr00t]

For example, how did sin affect animal life in such a way that it caused animals to start killing each other for food?

Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:

“Cursed is the ground for your sake;”

God cursed the earth because of man's disobedience. This is when everything "went south" here on earth. If you don't believe God can create life, then you certainly won't believe he can curse it and change it into what it is today.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:

“Cursed is the ground for your sake;”

God cursed the earth because of man's disobedience. This is when everything "went south" here on earth. If you don't believe God can create life, then you certainly won't believe he can curse it and change it into what it is today.

Let's say this is all true; all God did was curse the ground. This says nothing about cursing all animal life on the planet too, or creating diseases.

Actually, if you take the view that everything "went south" at the fall, you have an even deeper problem. Bacteria, germs and viruses are primitive, but they are "alive". Where did these come from? I've asked Christians about this before and they won't say God did because they believe he is good, nor will they say the devil made them (because that would mean the devil can create life), and man certainly didn't create such things because we don't have the ability to create life from nothing. So once again, the creationist viewpoint fails to answer any questions I have.

If you don't believe God can create life, then you certainly won't believe he can curse it and change it into what it is today.

No, I really don't believe this any more. For starters, the creationism in Genesis is mythical and has been refuted scientifically. Secondly, the extent to which God cursed the earth after the fall, if the creation myth is true, is disproportionate to the crime and actually contradicts the Christian notion of a good God.

If you don't believe me, let me ask you this; in the Garden of Eden God didn't just punish Eve with childbirth pains, but every woman in the human race. Why did God do this? Why is it necessary for every single woman to suffer for Eve's sin? It's excessive and unnecessary and possibly even sadistic and I honestly doubt any Christian can give me a good reason as to why a "good" God would punish a whole gender for the sin of one woman.

 

[elman]

A common argument for disbelieve in a personal deity (a God who intervenes in human affairs) is the extent of suffering on this earth. It's one of the reasons I became an atheist, and I've yet to hear good arguments from Christians that convince me God exists, loves us and yet can somehow tolerate the magnitude of human and animal suffering that exists on earth.

One argument Christians use is that suffering, in the grand scheme of things, works out in our favour. Romans 8:28 is usually the reasoning behind this thinking;



But this does not cover animal suffering. Watch any nature programme and observe how animals slaughter each other for food. Or observe, from news stories, how famine, disease and other natural disasters affect animals as well as humans. So what purpose does their suffering serve? This wiki page tells how lions kill their prey. What does a zebra learn from being slowly strangled to death whilst being eaten? How does this serve God's interests?

Furthermore, if suffering is some kind of path to enlightenment, then why do humans feel compelled to alleviate this suffering? Aren't we sinning by going to the doctor if we're sick? Or by giving to charity to help the poor?

Another argument Christians use is that we would not know good were it not for the existence of evil. Some apologists assert that we can see God's goodness more clearly once we've known evil and suffering. But don't Christians believe in a heaven were suffering and evil are absent? So this argument is flawed.

In essence, why should I believe in a personal God who cares for me when human existence strongly suggests that such a being does not exist?

I agree with all this and yet I believe there is a Creator of all that exists and I believe that Creator is good all the time. While this suffering is some evidence of an evil Creator or no Creator, there is then the problem of joy and peace and contentment and beauty and pleasure. Our existence with those things being present is some evidence of a good Creator. On balance, the idea that we exist for no reason other than simply being the result of accidental or random mixing of chemicals heated up over long periods of time, is not as reasonable as the idea that an intelligence is behind our existence and a destiny is there for us that transcends all the pain and suffering in this life. I can only speak for myself, but I can look back over my 71 years and see where the hand of this intelligent being was at work in my life. It makes no sense at all to assume some of these things were simply coincidence. It is simply not reasonable to assume that. I never had direct contact from God in speaking to me or appearing to me, but it has come fairly close to that at times. Things have occured from which a clear message was received on my part.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

I agree with all this and yet I believe there is a Creator of all that exists and I believe that Creator is good all the time. While this suffering is some evidence of an evil Creator or no Creator, there is then the problem of joy and peace and contentment and beauty and pleasure. Our existence with those things being present is some evidence of a good Creator.

Some people get pleasure from murder, torture or rape. Animals get pleasure from killing and eating their prey. The experience of pleasure is not a good argument for the existence of God.

On balance, the idea that we exist for no reason other than simply being the result of accidental or random mixing of chemicals heated up over long periods of time, is not as reasonable as the idea that an intelligence is behind our existence and a destiny is there for us that transcends all the pain and suffering in this life.

Evolution does not mean our lives lack purpose. We can achieve purpose from enjoying the good things around us as well as the company of friends and family, succeeding in our work and in living as virtuous a life as possible.

 

[elman]

=Grumpy Old Man;59803863]Some people get pleasure from murder, torture or rape. Animals get pleasure from killing and eating their prey. The experience of pleasure is not a good argument for the existence of God.

Those people would be mentally warped and not an example to prove anything, particularly not an argument to show that our ability to experience pleasure does not indicated a good Creator.

Evolution does not mean our lives lack purpose. We can achieve purpose from enjoying the good things around us as well as the company of friends and family, succeeding in our work and in living as virtuous a life as possible.

Any purpose you can create that is based solely on our physical existence ends with our physical existence. Therefore absent an intelligent Creator that had a reason to create us, there is no ultimate purpose if there is no such Creator and living a virtuouse life or living a murderous one results in the same destiny, after we are dead.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Any purpose you can create that is based solely on our physical existence ends with our physical existence.

Why is this so terrible?

 

[elman]

Why is this so terrible?

I did not use the word terrible. Non existence is not preferable to existence in my opinion.

 

[Bear.Fr00t]

Let's say this is all true; all God did was curse the ground. This says nothing about cursing all animal life on the planet too, or creating diseases.

Romans 8:20-22 clears up any ambiguity around this.

So once again, the creationist viewpoint fails to answer any questions I have.

Since that's all I got, and you aren't receptive to this viewpoint, I'll just bow out at this point.

 

[jesusssfreeek]

bye

 

[elman]

God is love. He cannot do anything but love. God cannot or will not bring evil about. Evil became when lusifer decided he didn't want to be God's #1 angle anymore but that he wanted to be God. So God cast him out of hevean and a third of the angles followed him. Thus evil!

Love is always a choice. God has a choice. God is however trustworthy, unlike us, and always choses to be loving. Evil came when man decided to be unloving. It still is created that same way.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Grumpy Old Man. Yes, there is much suffering and evil in this imperfect world. But God is Love, God is our Loving Heavenly Father. God`s eternal Law of Justice deals with all Evil, and we know it under " What ye sow ye will also reap." In Galatians, chapter 6, verse 7, Paul tells us how God will not be mocked. Whoever will sow good will get fitting rewards, and whoever will sow evil will also get fitting rewards. It is God`s Way of teaching us, Good for Good, and Bad or Evil for Bad or Evil.
Often the evil-doer will have to wait some time, that is because our God is a loving God, and we are given time to think and change from bad to good. But we may be sure that we all get fitting rewards, sooner or later. God loves us all, and Jesus died for us all.
We are on Earth to learn to love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. Also: to love our neighbour as we love ourselves. Jesus will give us His Love and Joy, and the Holy Spirit will give us His Love, also. ( our neighbour is all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends) Love is a Christian`s great weapon, love will conquer all and overcome all enmity and evil. It might take a bit longer to work, but it WILL WORK. To love will also lighten all sufferings. We are the only representatives of God in this imperfect world. I say this with love, Grumpy Old Man. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[Faulty]

A common argument for disbelieve in a personal deity (a God who intervenes in human affairs) is the extent of suffering on this earth. It's one of the reasons I became an atheist, and I've yet to hear good arguments from Christians that convince me God exists, loves us and yet can somehow tolerate the magnitude of human and animal suffering that exists on earth.

By what reasoning do you make the leap of faith of "'evil exists, therefore God doesn't"? One doesn't follow the other.

Besides, if God doesn't exist, then why would it matter if evil exists? And by what right can you proclaim anything as evil?

If there is no absolute foundation of morality, then anything you proclaim evil can rightly be proclaimed as good by anyone else who so desires, and you have to let them do so because their 'truth' is just as valid as your 'truth' in these matters.

But morality does exist, for scripture states that God has written His laws on our hearts, and it is by these pre-written laws, which guides our conscious, declaring to us what exactly is good and what is evil.

The mere fact that these things are universally known, good and evil, is actually proof itself of the existence of God.

 

[razeontherock]

In essence, why should I believe in a personal God who cares for me when human existence strongly suggests that such a being does not exist?

Have you stopped beating your wife? You are asking a classic loaded question. Before it can become a legitimate question, you need to unpack the assumptions from within it.

IOW, you're stating a conclusion, not asking a question. And yet on this same planet, countless of us draw the opposite conclusion, that we are overwhelmed with evidence FOR G-d, His existence, His Love - and yes, His very real Judgment, that will be more than merely "unpleasant." Harsh realities of life abound. I am Blessed to have time to ponder such things, but point out that cannot stay like that all the time. Scripture indicates it is we, or making it even more personal, I who will be forced to condemn you if you cannot come to terms with this. I don't like that idea one bit! I much prefer the idea of reasoning together ...

How can you reason away all those who have had their life changed, by G-d? Some of those include not being eaten by lions you know!

 

[razeontherock]

Secondly, the extent to which God cursed the earth after the fall, if the creation myth is true, is disproportionate to the crime and actually contradicts the Christian notion of a good God.

From the razing false notions dep't:

(Romans 11:22) "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

You'll notice I'm not defending hyper-literalism, but I am pointing out there is no such contradiction as what you point out. (It's a mistaken notion)

You'll also see another favorite doctrine smashed to bits at the same time, OSAS, no such thing as an ex-Christian, etc

If you don't believe me, let me ask you this; in the Garden of Eden God didn't just punish Eve with childbirth pains, but every woman in the human race. Why did God do this? Why is it necessary for every single woman to suffer for Eve's sin? It's excessive and unnecessary and possibly even sadistic and I honestly doubt any Christian can give me a good reason as to why a "good" God would punish a whole gender for the sin of one woman.

You are apparently unaware that Christianity = being redeemed from the curse, and there are women who have given birth w/o suffering. Mary is said to have been one of them. Important stuff here! I assure you, if it were just a matter of idle talk and opinion, I wouldn't spend any time here. This is actual reality to me, and you'll find that's true of many others, esp in this sub-forum.