The Problem of Evil (and Suffering)

[razeontherock]

You referred to natural disasters as evil. I don't think weather is evil.

Clearly you haven't been to the upper Mid-West.

 

[Xpistis sopheiaX]

I'm just curious GOM,in your estimation, what would be the maximum amount of suffering an all-powerful and infinitely-wise benevolent deity allow?

 

[razeontherock]

That's easy: 42

 

[Ishraqiyun]

In the Valentianian tradition of Christianity it's said that this world wasn't created by God the Father but rather by an imperfect being making use of a fallen or imperfect substance (literally the "substance" of ignorance and deficiency). There was a mental breakdown of sorts among one of the intelligences of God (Sophia) that resulted in the deficiency. It was ordered by a lesser being called the demiruge into the world we are familiar with today. In a way this world is a mad house run by the inmates.

In the Manichean tradition of Christianity there are said to have been two powers from all eternity. The Light and the darkness. The darkness rose up and became united and mixed with the Light. The battle ground wherein the two ended up mixed is the world we live in now. All evil and suffering comes from the darkness rather than the light. The conscious Light trapped within this realm is tormented and suffers immensely until it's final liberation. In this tradition the Father is not thought of as all powerful in evil and thus is not all powerful in a realm composed of both good (spirit) and evil (hyle). Az / Hyle and her demons are powerful in evil whereas God is powerful in good.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

The Cathar Christians actually claimed that this world was created by Satan which is why he was called "the god of this world".

There are good number of different argument regarding evil/ theodicy that have been made by Christian thinkers that are not as well known today.

 

[Xpistis sopheiaX]

That's easy: 42

I thought that was how many roads a man must walk down?

 

[Xpistis sopheiaX]

In the Valentianian tradition of Christianity it's said that this world wasn't created by God the Father but rather by an imperfect being making use of a fallen or imperfect substance (literally the "substance" of ignorance and deficiency). There was a mental breakdown of sorts among one of the intelligences of God (Sophia) that resulted in the deficiency. It was ordered by a lesser being called the demiruge into the world we are familiar with today. In a way this world is a mad house run by the inmates.

In the Manichean tradition of Christianity there are said to have been two powers from all eternity. The Light and the darkness. The darkness rose up and became united and mixed with the Light. The battle ground wherein the two ended up mixed is the world we live in now. All evil and suffering comes from the darkness rather than the light. The conscious Light trapped within this realm is tormented and suffers immensely until it's final liberation. In this tradition the Father is not thought of as all powerful in evil and thus is not all powerful in a realm composed of both good (spirit) and evil (hyle). Az / Hyle and her demons are powerful in evil whereas God is powerful in good.

In Gnosticism God doesn't create the world imperfect, but allows it to be created.

Ultimately I don't think this alleviates God of responsibility for this world. After all it was Sophia, an emanation of God Himself, who's leaving the Pleroma caused yaldabaoth to be spawned (and create an imperfect world). Even though that is all metaphorical (as far as I'm concerned anyway) allowing this world to be created imperfect probably isn't much different than God creating a world that he allows to become imperfect.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

Ultimately I don't think this alleviates God of responsibility for this world

The Manichean and Cathar explanation would.

With the Valentinian it would depend on what you mean by "responsible". I don't think the fore-Father from which all sprang was thought to be a person with a will who decided he would emanate aeons. There was no choice about it. Aeons eternally emanate from the Godhead. One of these Aeons had a mental breakdown... a sort of insanity in a "segment" of the "mind of God". This wasn't a conscious choice on the part of the Source or something that could be avoided.

 

[TamaraLynne]

I have come into this thread a bit late....but I blame satan...satan has made it very very difficult for us....as a child I had a step dad who was a pedophile...and from kindergarten until fifth grade I had to endure his touch...yes it was his choice to actually step out of the temptation of his mind and do those things to me. Do I blame God? NO!!! God not only made himself known to me but he stayed right by my side through all of it...the trial and the foster homes...everything...I would not be of sound mind without God.

To me freewill exist...that is for us to choose to do evil or good. We all stand before God someday....all of us...so exactly who are we? How evil is our heart? Was satan right by saying God made a mistake by making us? Do we deserve heaven?

To say this world should have been heaven to begin with and no bad was to be here...how many people do you think would choose to be good?
Our world is a blink of an eye compared to forever...

The mysteries of God are not exactly known in full...but we will know everything once we pass on

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

I'm just curious GOM,in your estimation, what would be the maximum amount of suffering an all-powerful and infinitely-wise benevolent deity allow?

If an all-powerful, infinitely wise and abundantly benevolent creator actually did exist, then his focus would be on minimising human suffering, similar to the way any good parent tries to raise their child. Certainly there would be no natural disasters. That this planet has regular and often devastating earthquakes is clearly a design flaw on God's part. Surely any deity with foresight and benevolence would have kept the tectonic plates static, rather than shifting as they do. Also, all animals would be vegetarian (as would humans). The writers of Genesis hint that humans were vegetarian, but they do not make such an assumption about animals, which implies that God took delight in creating animals as predators when he made the earth. Remember, God saw all that he had done and saw that it was good. It's rather disturbing that God defines the suffering seen in the animal kingdom as "good".

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Our world is a blink of an eye compared to forever...

I'd hardly call 4.5 billion years the blink of an eye.

 

[DCJazz]

I'd hardly call 4.5 billion years the blink of an eye.

4.5 billion years is also not 'eternity.

I think that's why they said "compared" to forever.

Obviously when you put it by itself, 4.5 billion years would be a very, very long time indeed.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

4.5 billion years is also not 'eternity.

I think that's why they said "compared" to forever.

Obviously when you put it by itself, 4.5 billion years would be a very, very long time indeed.

Well, in comparison the Universe is 13.7 billion years old. And one day, in billions of billions of years the Universe will cool down and will be unable to form new stars. But I don't plan on living that long.

 

[razeontherock]

The Manichean and Cathar explanation would.

With the Valentinian it would depend on what you mean by "responsible". I don't think the fore-Father from which all sprang was thought to be a person with a will who decided he would emanate aeons. There was no choice about it. Aeons eternally emanate from the Godhead. One of these Aeons had a mental breakdown... a sort of insanity in a "segment" of the "mind of God". This wasn't a conscious choice on the part of the Source or something that could be avoided.

Are you presenting this as your own personal view, or merely something that has been thought? Also, I'm more familiar with aeons from the Greek as "eon" in English, or am I messing that up? Anyway, how are you using aeon here?

 

[razeontherock]

If an all-powerful, infinitely wise and abundantly benevolent creator actually did exist, then his focus would be on minimising human suffering

WOW How egocentric can you possibly get?

And why exactly, is it all about you?

This point is driven home most clearly not by words, but by actions. Did Jesus arrive, born in a palace, ruling from a pristine throne for ever?

NO! And why not? Because it would be entirely selfish, and imprudent. How long would the line be to appear before Him for any reason or need?

Instead, He did exactly what you say G-d must not do. The humble birth, the lowly life, the suffering, mockery, shame, the brutal death .... you're telling me that's ALL lost on you?

You have it entirely backwards. Earth is the place for humility, not glorification.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

WOW How egocentric can you possibly get?

And why exactly, is it all about you?

OK, stop there. Where did I insert "me" in anything I said. Once again, you've twisted what I was saying, while ignoring the parts you don't want to discuss.

If Christians can imagine a perfect heaven, why can't a non-believer imagine a perfect world? And why can't a non-believer imagine a perfect world without being accused of pride or blasphemy?

This point is driven home most clearly not by words, but by actions. Did Jesus arrive, born in a palace, ruling from a pristine throne for ever?

NO! And why not? Because it would be entirely selfish, and imprudent. How long would the line be to appear before Him for any reason or need?

Instead, He did exactly what you say G-d must not do. The humble birth, the lowly life, the suffering, mockery, shame, the brutal death .... you're telling me that's ALL lost on you?

You have it entirely backwards. Earth is the place for humility, not glorification.

So what you're basically saying is that God knowingly created a world he knew would fail, just so humanity could learn, through all the suffering in it, some lesson on humility? Tell me, why would I want to worship a God who revels in such failure?

 

[razeontherock]

OK, stop there. Where did I insert "me" in anything I said. Once again, you've twisted what I was saying, while ignoring the parts you don't want to discuss.

Baloney. (Or bologna, whichever you prefer.) You said, and presented it as rational, that if there was a God who was loving or in any way good, that His primary objective would have to be to minimize human suffering as much as possible.

That means YOU are in control, and it's all about YOU! (As a member of the species that has received this exalted status you just now made up)

Which is as insulting as you could possibly get to the very title of "God," the concept of what it says, and everything connected to the topic.

And why can't a non-believer imagine a perfect world without being accused of pride or blasphemy?

Imagine anything you like. Just don't present it as "the way it must be if there's any validity to Christianity's claims," which is exactly what you did. And by doing so, you demonstrate not understanding what those claims are. I specified the main ones you're missing here in my post you responded to here, which you glossed over due to not realizing the ramifications of what's being said.

So what you're basically saying is that God knowingly created a world he knew would fail, just so humanity could learn, through all the suffering in it, some lesson on humility? Tell me, why would I want to worship a God who revels in such failure?

Your pretense is appalling. Look at the bolded words, the first of which is "fail." It's simply dead wrong. Now look at the next bolded word, and realize you've been going around in circles since my "Is God a sadist?" thread.

Embrace reality or don't, but don't refuse to and then pretend it's God's fault.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Baloney. (Or bologna, whichever you prefer.) You said, and presented it as rational, that if there was a God who was loving or in any way good, that His primary objective would have to be to minimize human suffering as much as possible.

That means YOU are in control, and it's all about YOU! (As a member of the species that has received this exalted status you just now made up)

I'm still struggling to see how a perfect world would be egotistical on my part. How is the alleviation of human suffering selfish or egotistical? Humans strive towards this goal EVERY DAY! If we are made in the image of God, then why isn't God striving towards eliminating suffering?

I think (and I may be wrong as I'm just guessing) that you're angry because I'm comparing what earth is with what I believe it should be if a benevolent deity did actually create it.

Imagine anything you like. Just don't present it as "the way it must be if there's any validity to Christianity's claims," which is exactly what you did. And by doing so, you demonstrate not understanding what those claims are. I specified the main ones you're missing here in my post you responded to here, which you glossed over due to not realizing the ramifications of what's being said.

The bolded part is probably where you're misunderstanding me. Someone asked what I believe a world would look like if God were truly benevolent, etc. I gave my opinion on what I believe a perfectly benevolent God would have done instead of the Christian God. If you have trouble imagining a perfect world, then I really feel sorry for you.

Your pretense is appalling. Look at the bolded words, the first of which is "fail." It's simply dead wrong. Now look at the next bolded word, and realize you've been going around in circles since my "Is God a sadist?" thread.

Embrace reality or don't, but don't refuse to and then pretend it's God's fault.

Look at it this way, according to the Bible God was so appalled by his creation, his failure, that he attempted to wipe out all life in a flood. Afterwards God was a bit upset, and gave us a nice rainbow to show us he wouldn't destroy us with another flood. (Incidentally, the book of Revelation reveals God's new plan to destroy humanity - personally I prefer the flood).

As far as I'm concerned God created the world and it is his responsibility. He put man on this planet with free will. It's like giving a child a loaded gun. The fault lies with the parent, not the child.

As for sadism, yes I've skirted around it. I've said a few times that I'm on the fence about the issue of whether or not God is a sadist. If a lot of the Bible is just "stories" not meant to be read literally then I think I'm wise to stay on the fence on this issue. However, my Christian upbringing and denominational choices gave me a distinctly literal view of scripture and this is how I base most of my opinions on God. Until I actually know which method of Biblical interpretation is the right one, I'll stay on the fence and continue to dance around the issue.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

Are you presenting this as your own personal view, or merely something that has been thought?

I think that all three are legitimate and useful paradigms for Christians to make use of. It would be hard to make use of two at the same time though of course. Right now I find myself especially attracted to the Valentinian Christian system but I also have great love for Mani and the Manichean Christians as well. I'm not sure which one I finally end up with in the long term.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

Also, I'm more familiar with aeons from the Greek as "eon" in English, or am I messing that up? Anyway, how are you using aeon here?

", in Gnosticism and Manichaeism, one of the orders of spirits, or spheres of being, that emanated from the Godhead and were attributes of the nature of the absolute" Encyclopedia Britannica

The Aeons are emanations of God. Generally self conscious emanations. They are also thought of in terms of world systems and the word has the temporal connotation of "age". They are the emanations that make up the Fullness / Pleroma which is symbolical thought of as the mind of God. The last aeon named Sophia was thought to have malfunctioned in Valentinian thought when she sought to know the unknown Father in an impossible manner. This fall caused suffering and ignorance and formed proto-matter or sorts. A later being that came from Sophia called the demiurge took control over this mass of ignorance and confusion and tried to order it. He was partially successful due to the help of Sophia (that he was actually unaware of) but the medium itself was imperfect and so was the demiurge so it didn't turn out that great. That's why this world is full of evil and suffering. This world is therefore called "the deficiency" and at the end of time it will be dissolved back into the fullness and cease to exist (though it has only a quasi-existence now)


[FONT=Bookman Old Style, Times New Roman][SIZE=+1]The term Aion used in the Bible = Aeon. Just a different spelling.

John 1250; to know the only true God and Jesus Christ is zoe aionios. [/SIZE][/FONT]