The Pope on Islam

[mark46]

American Catholics ignore popes, councils, the catechism and knowledgeable leaders when they disagree with deeply held opinions.

Considering our personal theological analysis to be superior to these entities seem a strange position for Catholics to take, especially conservative ones. Questioning Pope Benedict's theological analysis seems especially strange.

Many religious folks in the US have a very different view toward Islam that does Rome. Whose analysis should we listen to, that of Rome, or that of message board folks? Who should we follow? What do we know that they do not?
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Personally, I think that Muslims are heretics. I would note that we take a far different view toward heretics than we did in the Early Church. As I have said before, I also think that uber Calvinists are also heretics.
===============

So you think
The last ecumenical council
The last three Popes
The catechism
And Francis Cardinal Arinze
have all said other than what they really think, even though they didn't have to say anything at all?

 

[Rhamiel]

many Christian theologians understand Islam to be a Christian heresy similar to Arianism and Gnosticism

1 John 2:22-23
[22] Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father, and the Son. [23] Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father. He that confesseth the Son, hath the Father also.

 

[mark46]

I consider Islam and uber Calvinism to be heretical. We treat heretics differently than we did in the early Church. The quotation from the pope did not say anything different.

many Christian theologians understand Islam to be a Christian heresy similar to Arianism and Gnosticism

1 John 2:22-23
[22] Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father, and the Son. [23] Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father. He that confesseth the Son, hath the Father also.

 

[Rhamiel]

I consider Islam and uber Calvinism to be heretical. We treat heretics differently than we did in the early Church. The quotation from the pope did not say anything different.

I agree with everything you said

I have a deep respect for many Muslims, they have a respect for prayer and most of them keep to the dietary laws of their religion

Islam is a heresy
but we should be kind to the poor souls who have been fooled by that heresy

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I assume the pop culture image, in your opinion, is a caricature. So I guess the fatwas, the bombings, the killing of Christians throughout Egypt and Syria and the harassment of Christians at the hands of butchers overall in the Middle East coupled with all these "arab springs" and the Taliban, that was all something we dreamed?

I remember on September 11th on TV they showed people in Baghdad driving around in the center of town in a traffic circle honking their horns and cheering! In Cairo the same thing. In Damascus, in Tehran, on and on they showed one city celebrating and cheering with tears of joy, one after the other. And after September 11th, "Osama" became the most common baby name in the Middle East. All the burnings in effigy, terrorist acts perpetrated on their own people in Africa, all the slaughter and insanity, that's not Islam? The liberal argument is that only a tiny fraction of Islam is violent and hateful. Makes one wonder how hundreds of thousands of violent acts in the "arab spring" and all the rebel slaughters of Christians in Syria lately along with kidnappings of Orthodox priests and nuns has happened just from a tiny minority? And if most are so peaceful and loving, I wonder why I saw on CNN, Fox, and MSNBC parades of drivers honking and cheering with tears if they are such lovers of peace?

Where do the majority of bombs and mass murders come from these days? The Irish Republican Army? Hindus? Buddhists? Mormons? Seems that Islamic loons are usually the cause.

Sure there are good Muslims, but the vast majority are either violent or support the violent. Go to Tehran and find Muslims who just love Christians. There might be one or two left! Watch violent cartoons in the Middle East aimed at brainwashing kids to hate Christians and Westerners. Peaceful?

This seems like a kumbaya type of series of shows!

Jihadist Sesame Street and other radical childrens TV - YouTube

Not in particular. Rather just finding it interesting how much people are ignoring the Church's teaching on Islam and Muslims in favor of the pop culture image of Muslims.

 

[Tallguy88]

I assume the pop culture image, in your opinion, is a caricature. So I guess the fatwas, the bombings, the killing of Christians throughout Egypt and Syria and the harassment of Christians at the hands of butchers overall in the Middle East coupled with all these "arab springs" and the Taliban, that was all something we dreamed?

I remember on September 11th on TV they showed people in Baghdad driving around in the center of town in a traffic circle honking their horns and cheering! In Cairo the same thing. In Damascus, in Tehran, on and on they showed one city celebrating and cheering with tears of joy, one after the other. And after September 11th, "Osama" became the most common baby name in the Middle East. All the burnings in effigy, terrorist acts perpetrated on their own people in Africa, all the slaughter and insanity, that's not Islam? The liberal argument is that only a tiny fraction of Islam is violent and hateful. Makes one wonder how hundreds of thousands of violent acts in the "arab spring" and all the rebel slaughters of Christians in Syria lately along with kidnappings of Orthodox priests and nuns has happened just from a tiny minority? And if most are so peaceful and loving, I wonder why I saw on CNN, Fox, and MSNBC parades of drivers honking and cheering with tears if they are such lovers of peace?

Where do the majority of bombs and mass murders come from these days? The Irish Republican Army? Hindus? Buddhists? Mormons? Seems that Islamic loons are usually the cause.

Sure there are good Muslims, but the vast majority are either violent or support the violent. Go to Tehran and find Muslims who just love Christians. There might be one or two left! Watch violent cartoons in the Middle East aimed at brainwashing kids to hate Christians and Westerners. Peaceful?

This seems like a kumbaya type of series of shows!

Jihadist Sesame Street and other radical childrens TV - YouTube

And I guess the Crusades, inquisition, massacre of the Latins, murder of the old believers, peasants war, and all the other periods of extreme violence in the name of Jesus should be used as a broad brush against Christianity/Catholicism/Orthodoxy? That's the logical conclusion of what you just said.

I'll stick with what Christ's Church, through the Popes and Ecumenical Councils, has said about islam. If that makes me a naive hippie, at least I'm in good company.

 

[football5680]

I would say it is wishful thinking and the goal would be for the Muslims who are actually peaceful to start being more vocal and fight against the more violent ones. If the Pope has to respond to something about Islam then he will give an answer that's politically correct because if he spoke the truth about this evil religion then Christians would be attacked even more than they are right now. When the newspaper printed the cartoon of Muhammad, numerous people who had no connection at all were killed.

Islam calls for violence and subjugation against all non-believers. If you are a Jew or Christian you have the option of living as a second class citizen and if you are something else then the only option is to convert or die. When Muslims quote peaceful verses in the Quran they know that people who are ignorant of Islam will simply take them at their word. They fail to explain the doctrine of Abrogation which states if a verses contradicts another verse then you go with the verse that was revealed later in Muhammad's life. When Muhammad was in Mecca he preached peace because he didn't have power. When he migrated to Medina and gained power the verses get violent because he had the power to fight.

The way the world is today, Christians can't launch a crusade to fight against Islamic oppression so we must do what is in our power to try and protect our Christian brothers and sisters who are living under this Satanic religion.

 

[ebia]

many Christian theologians understand Islam to be a Christian heresy

I shouldn't think that any consider Islam to be Christian orthodoxy. That's not the issue here.

 

[ebia]

. The way the world is today, Christians can't launch a crusade to fight against Islamic oppression ...

Would that be your preferred mode if it were practical?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

And last time I checked, the inquisition was a political secular affair that happened centuries ago, the Crusades happened almost a millennium ago, and the Massacre of the Latins almost a century ago as well. But Islam has regularly been a violent religion FROM DAY ONE. And in 2014 it has only gotten worse. Comparing Catholic wars against Islam from a millennium ago to modern violent Islam is definitely an apples and oranges affair....

I can name fifty terrorist acts perpetrated by Muslims to you that have occurred in the past few years, how many Catholic Church or Orthodox-driven holy wars do you know about?

And in addition, let's put things in perspective. Europe got violent with Islam because Islam invaded Europe and tried to conquer the known world of its day! If Charles "the Hammer" Martel hadn't valiantly battled back for the Christians of Europe against the Muslims, we'd likely all be praying to Allah five times a day!

And from an Orthodox perspective, Tall, keep in mind that our lands were CONQUERED and OCCUPIED by these pacifist, kind-hearted, sweet Muslims. Constantinople, Greece, the Balkans, Serbia, the Middle East, the list goes on and on....conquered by Muslims.

You can stick to the popes, I'll stick to the Fathers like St. John Damascene!

And I guess the Crusades, inquisition, massacre of the Latins, murder of the old believers, peasants war, and all the other periods of extreme violence in the name of Jesus should be used as a broad brush against Christianity/Catholicism/Orthodoxy? That's the logical conclusion of what you just said.

I'll stick with what Christ's Church, through the Popes and Ecumenical Councils, has said about islam. If that makes me a naive hippie, at least I'm in good company.

 

[Basil the Great]

I was not aware of this statement by the Pope. I would say that he probably thinks he is offering an olive branch to Muslims by making such a positive statement about Islam, in hopes that such will ease some of the violence against Christians in the Middle East. Whether or not his approach might work or not, only time will tell.

 

[Tigg]

I assume the pop culture image, in your opinion, is a caricature. So I guess the fatwas, the bombings, the killing of Christians throughout Egypt and Syria and the harassment of Christians at the hands of butchers overall in the Middle East coupled with all these "arab springs" and the Taliban, that was all something we dreamed?

I remember on September 11th on TV they showed people in Baghdad driving around in the center of town in a traffic circle honking their horns and cheering! In Cairo the same thing. In Damascus, in Tehran, on and on they showed one city celebrating and cheering with tears of joy, one after the other. And after September 11th, "Osama" became the most common baby name in the Middle East. All the burnings in effigy, terrorist acts perpetrated on their own people in Africa, all the slaughter and insanity, that's not Islam? The liberal argument is that only a tiny fraction of Islam is violent and hateful. Makes one wonder how hundreds of thousands of violent acts in the "arab spring" and all the rebel slaughters of Christians in Syria lately along with kidnappings of Orthodox priests and nuns has happened just from a tiny minority? And if most are so peaceful and loving, I wonder why I saw on CNN, Fox, and MSNBC parades of drivers honking and cheering with tears if they are such lovers of peace?

Where do the majority of bombs and mass murders come from these days? The Irish Republican Army? Hindus? Buddhists? Mormons? Seems that Islamic loons are usually the cause.

Sure there are good Muslims, but the vast majority are either violent or support the violent. Go to Tehran and find Muslims who just love Christians. There might be one or two left! Watch violent cartoons in the Middle East aimed at brainwashing kids to hate Christians and Westerners. Peaceful?

This seems like a kumbaya type of series of shows!

Jihadist Sesame Street and other radical childrens TV - YouTube

So agree with you.

 

[ebia]

Where do the majority of bombs and mass murders come from these days? The Irish Republican Army? Hindus? Buddhists? Mormons?

When was the last time popular western television bothered with the Buddhist perpetrated attrocities in Sri Lanka and Myanmar, for instance.

Go to Tehran and find Muslims who just love Christians.

There are plenty - they just aren't the ones with the power.

There might be one or two left! Watch violent cartoons in the Middle East aimed at brainwashing kids to hate Christians and Westerners. Peaceful?

Arabs make up what, 20%, of Muslims?

You claim that you aren't just running with popular perceptions, yet your posts are full of exactly that.

 

[ebia]

There can be few countries with greater ongoing tension between Christians and Muslims than Nigeria, yet I keep coming back to Cardinal Arinze.

 

[truefiction1]

Things are hardly ever what they seem.

http://www.amazon.com/How-Civilizations-Die-Islam-Dying/dp/159698273X

 

[WarriorAngel]

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ.

I know you have probably discussed this in the fora when it was news, but I would like to know your thoughts on this saying by the Pope from November 2013:

"authentic Islam and a proper reading of Islam is in contrast to every kind of violence."

As a person who has read pretty much up on Islam, both when it comes to the Quran, the Hadith and the sunna, I am really chocked at these words from the Pope.

The Syrian refugee and former Muslim Wafa Sultan says:
"Islam is exactly what Muhammad did and said".
I tend to agree with her. And his biography is not pleasant at all.

Also its a reality that in Muslim majority countries Christians and women are suffering under laws that tolerate opression or even violence and murder in the name of the islamic god. So for instance Muhammad ordered that any Muslim who turns to Christianity must be killed.

So can anyone tell me whats going on with the Church? does the Church not know ? Did the Pope just express some wishthinking? I am quite happy with the Pope otherwise, but I am rather frustrated that he would say something that goes so much against so much available knowlegde.

Thoughts? Understanding?

Where did you get his quote?
Makes a world of difference.

Maybe he said in his own language something similar to authentic but not authentic. Perhaps genuine - as in those who have a genuine focus on the good part of the quran - before Muhammad had followers and was writing nice stuff to GAIN followers.

The translations of his quotes have been pretty erroneous so far.

 

[mark46]

The US has been fighting Muslims in the Middle East for several decades. We sided with the Arabs against the Persians in the Iraqi-Iran War. We had Arab Muslims on our side in opposing Hussain and Bin Laden. Somehow the US populace has come to hate Muslims, even though only a relatively small number are on the other side of Middle East conflicts.

We truly need to understand Islam and Islam in the world much better. The US has come a long way since we saved Muslims in Bosnia under Clinton.

The world sees the US as the opponents of Islam. Most of what I have seen here supports that idea.

I recall when Malcolm X went to Mecca and discovered that there were white Muslims with blue eyes. We have come full circle. We need to understand that there are Muslims of all colors and ethnicities, some oppressed by their governments (some of which are US allies). And, yes, a few (20%) of Muslims are Arabs, our favorite caricature.

If we must "hate" our enemy, perhaps we should focus on those who have attacked us and financed those attacks, those rich supporters in Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

When was the last time popular western television bothered with the Buddhist perpetrated attrocities in Sri Lanka and Myanmar, for instance.



There are plenty - they just aren't the ones with the power.


Arabs make up what, 20%, of Muslims?

You claim that you aren't just running with popular perceptions, yet your posts are full of exactly that.

 

[WarriorAngel]

The US has been fighting Muslims in the Middle East for several decades. We sided with the Arabs against the Persians in the Iraqi-Iran War. We had Arab Muslims on our side in opposing Hussain and Bin Laden. Somehow the US populace has come to hate Muslims, even though only a relatively small number are on the other side of Middle East conflicts.

We truly need to understand Islam and Islam in the world much better. The US has come a long way since we saved Muslims in Bosnia under Clinton.

The world sees the US as the opponents of Islam. Most of what I have seen here supports that idea.

I recall when Malcolm X went to Mecca and discovered that there were white Muslims with blue eyes. We have come full circle. We need to understand that there are Muslims of all colors and ethnicities, some oppressed by their governments (some of which are US allies). And, yes, a few (20%) of Muslims are Arabs, our favorite caricature.

If we must "hate" our enemy, perhaps we should focus on those who have attacked us and financed those attacks, those rich supporters in Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

Then listen to your own words.

It seems that most rely on the messages in the quran that arent so nice.
Its their pejorative. Its in their religion.

Do you understand Islam? You tell us to understand them.

I had a picture in here that in Michigan they were picketing against our democracy and wanting sharia law.
THAT is their law... no matter how one may be peaceful in and of their own faith - their laws do not reconcile with freedom for all.

Moreover; there was another instance of Muslims in America throwing stones at Christians and spitting on them.

Say what you want - but dont fool yourself.

Their goal is sharia law on every corner of the world and sharia law is NOT nice. Especially to women.

 

[AMDG]

Several DECADES?!!! More like almost since the beginning of the U.S. existence. The FIRST war of the Muslim extremists against the U.S. was the one with the Barbary Pirates.

The Muslims kept attacking our ships, imprisoning our people and looting even as we were spending mucho on "protection money" so that they wouldn't be. Finally we had had enough and THAT'S where we get the saying "millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute". Gosh this used to be taught to every grade school child. What happened?

 

[Tallguy88]

Several DECADES?!!! More like almost since the beginning of the U.S. existence. The FIRST war of the Muslim extremists against the U.S. was the one with the Barbary Pirates.

The Muslims kept attacking our ships, imprisoning our people and looting even as we were spending mucho on "protection money" so that they wouldn't be. Finally we had had enough and THAT'S where we get the saying "millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute". Gosh this used to be taught to every grade school child. What happened?

So did the British and French. Since they are Christians, by your reasoning we have been at war with Christianity since our founding.