The Pope on Islam

[KatyDanes]

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ.

I know you have probably discussed this in the fora when it was news, but I would like to know your thoughts on this saying by the Pope from November 2013:

"authentic Islam and a proper reading of Islam is in contrast to every kind of violence."

As a person who has read pretty much up on Islam, both when it comes to the Quran, the Hadith and the sunna, I am really chocked at these words from the Pope.

The Syrian refugee and former Muslim Wafa Sultan says:
"Islam is exactly what Muhammad did and said".
I tend to agree with her. And his biography is not pleasant at all.

Also its a reality that in Muslim majority countries Christians and women are suffering under laws that tolerate opression or even violence and murder in the name of the islamic god. So for instance Muhammad ordered that any Muslim who turns to Christianity must be killed.

So can anyone tell me whats going on with the Church? does the Church not know ? Did the Pope just express some wishthinking? I am quite happy with the Pope otherwise, but I am rather frustrated that he would say something that goes so much against so much available knowlegde.

Thoughts? Understanding?

 

[MikeK]

Popes John Paul 2, Benedict 16 and Francis are all remarkably well-read religious schollars - Benedict in particular. Each of them was selected by the College of Cardinals, guided by the Holy Spirit to head Christ's Church on Earth. They are more qualified than you. They have read more than you. They have prayed more than you. They know more than you. The Church "knows" everything that man can know about God. The problem is not with what our Popes or the Church know but with what we think we know. That probably sounds like an attack on you, it isn't. We all have times when the Church through a Pope or a Bishop's Conference makes a statement that we think is errant. When that happens, we have to fix us, not correct the Church.

 

[Tigg]

This is my own opinion. The Popes haven't spoken ex cath-whatever it is on Muslim's God or religion. So it is their opinion. IMO, Muslim believes has to show it is a decent peaceful religion and it has not to me. The murder of Christian and our Catholic bro's and sisters, the burning of churches, and other wonderful attacks, has guided my opinion. The parts of the Koran I have read does not impress me either.

Pope Francis, to my knowledge has spoken out again the persecution and I am finally hearing those in the govt. speaking out. I do not know how anyone can stop the hatred that leads to the killing of someone in some other religion. I can pray maybe my govt can take some sort of action, but I doubt we, the US, will do anything. I do pray for those subjected to all that the religion of pecace does to them. May God bless them much.

 

[ebia]

This is my own opinion. The Popes haven't spoken ex cath-whatever it is on Muslim's God or religion. So it is their opinion.

True, but a pope's opinion is still supposed to carry authority when it's not infallible, and there is of course Nostra Aetate, the statement of a Council.

 

[ebia]

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ. I know you have probably discussed this in the fora when it was news, but I would like to know your thoughts on this saying by the Pope from November 2013: "authentic Islam and a proper reading of Islam is in contrast to every kind of violence." As a person who has read pretty much up on Islam, both when it comes to the Quran, the Hadith and the sunna, I am really chocked at these words from the Pope. The Syrian refugee and former Muslim Wafa Sultan says: "Islam is exactly what Muhammad did and said". I tend to agree with her. And his biography is not pleasant at all. Also its a reality that in Muslim majority countries Christians and women are suffering under laws that tolerate opression or even violence and murder in the name of the islamic god. So for instance Muhammad ordered that any Muslim who turns to Christianity must be killed. So can anyone tell me whats going on with the Church? does the Church not know ? Did the Pope just express some wishthinking? I am quite happy with the Pope otherwise, but I am rather frustrated that he would say something that goes so much against so much available knowlegde. Thoughts? Understanding?

Would you choose an ex-catholic for the definitive version of Catholicism?

I think it worth adding to the list of popes that have said such things Francis Cardinal Arinze - Archbishop of Nigeria. Someone who can not possibly be accused of naivity.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Not to mention Lumen Gentium, which gave HUGE credence to the papal opinions private or official....

True, but a pope's opinion is still supposed to carry authority when it's not infallible, and there is of course Nostra Aetate, the statement of a Council.

 

[AMDG]

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ.

I know you have probably discussed this in the fora when it was news, but I would like to know your thoughts on this saying by the Pope from November 2013:

"authentic Islam and a proper reading of Islam is in contrast to every kind of violence."

As a person who has read pretty much up on Islam, both when it comes to the Quran, the Hadith and the sunna, I am really chocked at these words from the Pope.

The Syrian refugee and former Muslim Wafa Sultan says:
"Islam is exactly what Muhammad did and said".
I tend to agree with her. And his biography is not pleasant at all.

Also its a reality that in Muslim majority countries Christians and women are suffering under laws that tolerate opression or even violence and murder in the name of the islamic god. So for instance Muhammad ordered that any Muslim who turns to Christianity must be killed.

So can anyone tell me whats going on with the Church? does the Church not know ? Did the Pope just express some wishthinking? I am quite happy with the Pope otherwise, but I am rather frustrated that he would say something that goes so much against so much available knowlegde.

Thoughts? Understanding?

The Pope is not naïve. He IS a man of peace. He does not speak ex-cathedra on many things--this being one. He's just voicing the popular opinion and idealistic thought. Others, having more personal experiences (the Catholic theologian Scott Hahn as well as those who have relied upon Church history to inform themselves--Lepanto?) have expressed different opinions.

 

[InnerPhyre]

The main issue with Islam is that it is an Evangelistic religion that has no Evangelists. They have no preachers going out and converting people. They convert nations through conquest, or through moving into another country and having many many children.

 

[Lady Bug]

The main issue with Islam is that it is an Evangelistic religion that has no Evangelists. They have no preachers going out and converting people. They convert nations through conquest, or through moving into another country and having many many children.

Would you actually want them doing any evangelizing though?

 

[ebia]

He's just voicing the popular opinion and idealistic thought.

Really!!?

Others, having more personal experiences (the Catholic theologian Scott Hahn as well as those who have relied upon Church history to inform themselves--Lepanto?) have expressed different opinions.

Scott Hahn has extensive experience of Islam? More than, say, Cardinal Arinze? And speaks with more authority?

 

[AMDG]

Would you actually want them doing any evangelizing though?

Better than killing those who aren't already Muslim (or taxing them into oblivion.)

 

[ebia]

The main issue with Islam is that it is an Evangelistic religion that has no Evangelists. They have no preachers going out and converting people. They convert nations through conquest, or through moving into another country and having many many children.

Do you see evangelisation in any religion as being primarily through professional evangelists?

 

[AMDG]

Not InnerPhyre, but know that there are many religions that send out missionaries and evangelists. They use reason and example and explain the Gospel. Somehow, the thought of Jihad, terror, and killing those who don't agree (like those of Islam do) is not in something that they employ.

 

[Tallguy88]

It's amazing how Catholics are so easily able to ignore the Popes, Ecuminical Councils, Catechism, and encyclicals about Islam.

 

[ebia]

Not InnerPhyre, but know that there are many religions that send out missionaries and evangelists.

That's not the point - the comment sets up professional evangelist and force of arms as the exclusive options. The reality is that most evangelisation happens through ordinary adherents talking about and displaying their faith.

They use reason and example and explain the Gospel. Somehow, the thought of Jihad, terror, and killing those who don't agree (like those of Islam do) is not in something that they employ.

It's not like Christianity has never used force.

 

[ebia]

It's amazing how Catholics are so easily able to ignore the Popes, Ecuminical Councils, Catechism, and encyclicals about Islam.

Indeed.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Though it was by NO MEANS the reason I left Catholicism for Orthodoxy, I couldn't affirm the catechism's statements about it or any of the views on ecumenism with Muslims. But you ARE correct, that if someone wishes to be Catholic, the catechism of the Church must be respected. And Islam is highly lauded in the catechism....

It's amazing how Catholics are so easily able to ignore the Popes, Ecuminical Councils, Catechism, and encyclicals about Islam.

 

[AMDG]

I'm surprised that folks don't know Catholic history. How Islam tried to capture all of Western Europe and the Pope at the time had people praying the Rosary so that the Muslim invasion would fail.

I'm surprised that there are some folks here that do not know that Muslims invaded Christian Churches and turned them into mosques. I'm surprised that the folks don't even know that the Burial Cloth of Christ (and the Sudarium) had to be hidden from the Muslim hoards lest they destroy them.

I'm surprised that folks here cannot see the bloodshed against our brothers and sisters in Christ and the Christian churches and Jewish synagogues burnings for which the Muslims in the Mideast are responsible.

I am surprised (and so was Scott Hahn) that Muslims find it insulting that we say God is loving.

I am surprised that folks here do not know the beginnings of the Muslim religion. That the Catholic book by Bob and Penny Lord, The Triumph of the Cross note that this is a heresy and describe Mohammed as from a warlike tribe that used the Christian message to further his warlike aims.

I am surprised that some folks here do not seem to know that the Pope was not speaking ex-cathedra and when he is not, we needn't take his words as more than a man of peace who needs to be respected. It is not a matter of salvation.

I am surprised that folks have not noticed that the terrorists happen to be ... Muslims on Jihad.

And I am further surprised that it doesn't seem to be known that we do indeed have professional evangelists--ones that are not about killing folks to make them convert "or else". They instead may travel to foreign countries bringing the Good News of the Gospel, feeding the poor, healing the sick, even living in leper colonies.

 

[ebia]

I'm surprised that folks don't know Catholic history.

So you are saying that Popes, ecumenical councils, Arinze,... don't know history.

I am surprised that some folks here do not seem to know that the Pope was not speaking ex-cathedra and when he is not, we needn't take his words as more than a man of peace who needs to be respected.

Incorrect about Popes and ignores Nostra Aetate, which is a conciliar document.

It is not a matter of salvation.

Isn't it!

And I am further surprised that it doesn't seem to be known that we do indeed have professional evangelists-

A gross distortion of what was said.

 

[sonshine234]

I'm surprised that folks don't know Catholic history. How Islam tried to capture all of Western Europe and the Pope at the time had people praying the Rosary so that the Muslim invasion would fail.

I'm surprised that there are some folks here that do not know that Muslims invaded Christian Churches and turned them into mosques. I'm surprised that the folks don't even know that the Burial Cloth of Christ (and the Sudarium) had to be hidden from the Muslim hoards lest they destroy them.

I'm surprised that folks here cannot see the bloodshed against our brothers and sisters in Christ and the Christian churches and Jewish synagogues burnings for which the Muslims in the Mideast are responsible.

I am surprised (and so was Scott Hahn) that Muslims find it insulting that we say God is loving.

I am surprised that folks here do not know the beginnings of the Muslim religion. That the Catholic book by Bob and Penny Lord, The Triumph of the Cross note that this is a heresy and describe Mohammed as from a warlike tribe that used the Christian message to further his warlike aims.

I am surprised that some folks here do not seem to know that the Pope was not speaking ex-cathedra and when he is not, we needn't take his words as more than a man of peace who needs to be respected. It is not a matter of salvation.

I am surprised that folks have not noticed that the terrorists happen to be ... Muslims on Jihad.

And I am further surprised that it doesn't seem to be known that we do indeed have professional evangelists--ones that are not about killing folks to make them convert "or else". They instead may travel to foreign countries bringing the Good News of the Gospel, feeding the poor, healing the sick, even living in leper colonies.

surprising isn't it