The Pastor King. an examination of the modern pastor role

[LoveofTruth]

THE PASTOR KING

The Exalted Pastor over all

As shocking as this may seem, there is not one verse in the New Testament that speaks of a man over all the church called, “The Pastor”, who does most of the ministry, gets a regular salary and who acts as the head of the church. Rather, in the New Testament, we see the whole church ministering to one another in Christ who works effectually in all believers (Eph 4:11-16 , 1 Cor 14:26-38, 1 Peter 4:10,11)and we read of elders (plural) in every church(singular) who watch over and feed others spiritually (Acts 14:23, James 5:14, 1 Peter 5:1,2). They are not to Lord over others and control them in a supreme authority but are to be examples.

Paul said to the church, “Not that we have dominion over your faith but are helpers ..” (2 Cor. 1:24). The word “dominion”, here means “to rule: have dominion over, lord, be lord of...(from 2962),...supreme in authority, ie (as a noun) controller. By implication, Master (as in official title..)...” (Strongs Concordance. # 2961). Jesus also warned of such a false dominion and authority over others (Matthew 20:25-27), and said “it shall not be so among you”.

Yet in many gatherings today, this person called “The Pastor”, is exalted above all others as he stands on top a large platform behind a “pulpit”. He is the one who dominates and has preeminence over all others and does most of the speaking week after week. He generally rules in a large castle-like structure unbiblically called “the church” with lower ranked servants under him. Sometimes he has a sign outside with his name on it. Many flattering titles are given to him such as, “Reverend”, “Master of Divinity”, or “President”, and he uses expressions such as “My church” or “My people”. Scripture warns against one man in and exalted role having the preeminance over all in the church (3 John 9,10, 2 Cor 11:12,13,20, Acts 20:29-31, Col 2:8, Job 32:31,32) and Jesus said “Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ” (Matt. 23:8,10).

Almost all of the activities in the assembly today are controlled by the Pastor and no one is permitted to speak or minister unless he allows it. There is rarely opportunity for anyone else to minister as Christ leads, for they are not on the man made programs in man’s order. Many are unaware of their freedoms in the body of Christ and even if they were, they would be afraid to speak as God leads them, fearing the disapproval and rebuke of the pastor. Many dangerously look to this one man alone for all their spiritual guidance in the assembly, rather than wait on God and to be led by the Spirit in mutual edification of one another in God’s order.

The Modern Pastoral Role is Unbiblical

The position that the modern Pastor holds today is unbiblical. It fights against the priesthood of all believers (1 Peter 2:5,9, Rev. 1:6, Rom. 12:1), the mutual edification of one another in the body of Christ as He leads, (1 Cor. 14:26-38, 1 Cor 12:7, 1 Peter 4:10, 11, Col. 3:15,16, Eph. 4:16) and it hinders Gods direct leading and working in all believers in the church (Heb. 13:20,21, 1 John 2:27, Eph 4:16,21, Col 3:15,16). The role of the modern Pastor over all often quenches the spirt in the rest of the body and hinders the very function and growth of the church.

This modern role of “The Pastor” today, sets him up to reign as a king (or Lord) over the body of Christ and exalts him (2 Cor. 11:12,20, Rom 12:3-5). His position as head of the church can usurp the headship of Christ in the meetings (Col 2:8, 19) and bind up the saints in the traditions and commandments of men that turn from the truth and fight against the commandments of the Lord (1 Cor 14:26-38, Col 2:8,19, Titus 1:14).

Paul warned us of such serious things and said, “Beware, lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the traditions of men, after the rudiments of the world and not after Christ” (Col. 2:8). The word ”spoil” implies, leading believers away and robbing them of their goods. The one modern pastor tradition does this in part and makes the word of God of no effect by this role (Mark 7:13).These controlling men don’t allow believers to edify one another in the gatherings as they are commanded to do in scripture and hinder them from being good stewards of their gifts from God (1 Cor 14:26,30,37, 38 1 Peter 4:10,11). But If any man reject God’s commands to do so they are ignorant and should not be listened to and withdrawn from (1 Cor 14:26,30,37, 2 Thess. 3:6).

If anyone examines scripture closely they will see that this modern Pope-like figure called the “The Pastor “ today does not come from scripture but rather comes out of the worldly traditions of men, mixed with an OT priesthood and pagan traditions. It stems from the (so called) “church fathers”, such as; Ignatius of Antioch, Cyprian and others, from Constantine, a false Roman Catholic hierarchy and from reformers who retained many of the Catholic priest roles and misunderstanding of Christ headship in the body ministry.

Many Gifts Not Just a Pastor Gift

We read in scripture that God ”...gave gifts unto men...he gave some, apostles; and some, and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:”, (Ephesians 4:8,11,12) Notice that the word, “pastors” is in the plural form. We do not find the singular one man pastor over all in the New Testament. All of these gifts are needed in the body of Christ and not just pastors. But somehow through the traditions of man, this one “pastor” gift come to dominate over all the other gifts.

Though there are blessed pastor giftings in the body of Christ, (just as there are apostles, prophets, evangelist and teachers), the modern role of the exalted “Pastor” over all does not exist biblically and is a dangerous distortion spiritually to the church. Many of those in this unbiblical role may be true believers and loving men with sincerity and have many good qualities, Others may be seeking their own glory and reputation. But either way they are still in error in this exalted role and they still hinder the body from functioning in Christ.

Despite the confusion of many religious forms today and the multitude of believers who gather in them, with the exalted Pastor over all, their various spiritual moments, evangelistic aspects and some good ministration seen in many of these gatherings, there is still a great problem in the churches and it must be corrected and set in God’s order.

We see in many assemblies today a weak, dysfunctional body that plays church and cannot follow the leading of the Spirit in the assembly as good stewards in mutual edification. Instead they are forced to look at the back of each others heads and are drawn after the exalted man on the the platform. Is Jesus Christ outside of many gatherings
today knocking and wanting to come into them and to “sup” with them (Revelation 3:16-20)and to participate with them, or is He ready to spew some out of his mouth, while they think all is well and they are rich and increased with goods and need nothing.

The reality is, that if this modern role of the Pastor today was taken away from most assemblies they could not function and would most likely be in a fearful panic and possibly collapse. But if you take away the modern one man Pastor role over all from a true biblical church gathering, they would still be able to use their gifts and edify one another and minister as God intended in His order.

God’s Order and Man’s Order

God’s order in the body of Christ is His spiritual working in every part as he leads and empowers believers in all things. Though hidden from the eyes of natural men, it is there nevertheless. This order begins in the spirit and the patient waiting on God as He leads into all gifts, ministry and fruits of the Spirit and sets the order in the gatherings, (Titus 1:5, Col. 2:5, Psalm 37:23, Eph. 4:15,16, 1 Tim 3:15, 1 Cor. 14:26-37, 1 Cor. 11:34, Heb 13:20,21, 1 John 2:27). No person can know this order unless they are in Christ, and walk in the spirit. But sadly, even many christians today are drawn away from God’s order and rule in their hearts into a religious form of man’s order and the dominion of exalted leaders.

Man’s order does not begin in the spirit, it begins in man’s carnal mind and human wisdom, and by what they know naturally ( 1 Cor 2, Jude 1:10) and is regulated by the modern pastor role, programs and traditions of men in the rudiments of the world.

Jesus said, “I will build my church” and he is fully able to do this by his power and might, which he has been doing all along. God’s order is very different than mans order and traditions in the church.

“Give us a King”

There is a story in the bible where God’s people said, “Give us a King, to judge us” (1 Samuel 8:6). God allowed it, but told Samuel, “they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me that I should not reign over them” (1 Samuel 8:7). God also told Samuel to warn them that the king would bring them into bondage, take their goods and use them for his glory (1 Samuel 8:11-19).

Saul also had some of the Levites killed (1 Sam. 22:17,18). The Levites being a type of the priesthood of all believers. Similarly, as Saul had them killed and they could no longer minister, so the modern one man Pastor Lord also quenches the spirit in the body and hinders or cuts off the priesthood of all believers where they can no longer minister freely.

Today, similar to the story of Saul, you can almost hear the people cry, “Give us a Pastor, like all the other churches”, especially when they are looking for a new one. But by doing so, they may be rejecting God from reigning over them in the gatherings.

Body Ministry to One Another

The bible teaches that Christ is to lead in every part of the body as the head of the church, “From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love” (Ephesians 4:16). This is how Jesus Christ builds (or edifies) His church. Notice, that through Christ headship the whole body can edify one another, and not just rely on one man the Pastor. This should be allowed to happen every time the saints gather together in Christ and wait on the Lord.

When the church comes together all can have something revealed to them and share it (1 Cor.14:30). They can also have a psalm, a doctrine, a tongue, a revelation and interpretation, (1 Cor.14:26); comfort and edify one another (1 Thess. 5:11); use all their gifts as they wait on God (Rom. 12:1-10); have a spiritual manifestation to profit all (1 Cor 12:7-); admonish one another (Rom. 15:14); teach one another (Col. 3:16); exhort one another, (Heb. 3:13); warn unruly (1Thess. 5:14); confess their faults one to one another (James 5:16); anoint the sick (James 5:14); prophesy to one another (1 Cor. 14:31); discipline erring brethren (1 Cor5:3-5, 6:1-6); pray for one another (James 5:16); lead in prayer and song (1 Cor. 14:15); have a psalm, hymn or spiritual song (Col. 3:16); any man can speak or minister as God leads (1 Peter 4:10,11). We must follow after Christ who will lead us in this way, and not follow after man-made programs and dead rituals and the exalted Pastor role that quench the Spirit.

 

[dzheremi]

Hi. Can you please review the Statement of Purpose that is supposed to be read and understood by all who post in the Traditional Theology subforum? This particular area of CF is dedicated to respectful and informative discussion involving members of historically-rooted Christian traditions such as Orthodox Christianity, Roman Catholicism, and the various forms of "high church" Protestantism, like Lutheranism and Anglicanism. We love having visitors from outside of these traditions, but it is very important that respect is maintained, even in disagreement. Posting about practices or positions within various churches as being "non-biblical" or "man-made" seems like it is designed to invite argument, which is really not what we're supposed to be doing here in the Traditional Theology subforum. Thank you.

 

[Bobber]

THE PASTOR KING

The Exalted Pastor over all

As shocking as this may seem, there is not one verse in the New Testament that speaks of a man over all the church called, “The Pastor”, who does most of the ministry, gets a regular salary and who acts as the head of the church. Rather, in the New Testament, we see the whole church ministering to one another in Christ who works effectually in all believers

First I read your whole post. I agree with nearly all of what you say. But the question is where does one go from here? If one get's saved where are they to fellowship? Maybe in big cities you have things done in the type of way you believe but what about small towns? If there's no such a set up like you say what's a person to do? Not fellowship? That's not good.

 

[PloverWing]

I don't think our priest knows he's supposed to be a king. I'll have to tell him next time I see him. Although, I'm pretty sure that if he had a batch of us killed, he'd get in trouble with the bishop.

 

[Paidiske]

To an extent I agree with the OP. Long centuries of clericalism have led to a culture in which many people are not encouraged to discover and use their gifts in the church. There is a culture of control and distorted power in many places. And an expectation that ministry - of all kinds - really belongs to the clergy.

Where I part ways with the OP is that I think there is a place for recognised leadership roles - call it pastor, priest, elder, whatever - exercised in a healthy way, even within fairly "traditional" church structures. I do think that doing things "decently and in order" (1 Cor 14:40) etc., allows for structures to be put in place about how the church authorises people to operate in particular roles.

But the key thing is that those structures ought to be about enabling the life of the church, not about keeping people passive and under the "rule" of the leaders.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Hi. Can you please review the Statement of Purpose that is supposed to be read and understood by all who post in the Traditional Theology subforum? This particular area of CF is dedicated to respectful and informative discussion involving members of historically-rooted Christian traditions such as Orthodox Christianity, Roman Catholicism, and the various forms of "high church" Protestantism, like Lutheranism and Anglicanism. We love having visitors from outside of these traditions, but it is very important that respect is maintained, even in disagreement. Posting about practices or positions within various churches as being "non-biblical" or "man-made" seems like it is designed to invite argument, which is really not what we're supposed to be doing here in the Traditional Theology subforum. Thank you.

Hello and God bless.

I thought this was a traditional theology area where christians can share things of God and from the earliest christian witness according to scripture. What I share is as biblically traditional as it can be right back to the roots of the church and the foundations or God's order.

When Jesus said that some made the word of God of no effect by their traditions. he was saying that to expose and help them to be free. He showed them what hindered them from walking in His word. To say something is man made is what i believe according to scripture when I compare God’s order and commands to what man does in many gatherings. This is simply biblical correction and instruction.

I must speak the things that I have seen and heard and to go against my conscience and scrpture is not safe. Unless i cam convinced by sound reason and scripture I can do no other. here I stand God help me.

My intentions are only for the good. To see all my brothers and sisters edifying one another in Christ and where no man ought to think of himself more highly than he ought to.

Let everything that can be shaken be shaken, so that all we see is that glorious image of Christ and his church and His working in every part.

If we show a scripture like 1 Corinthians 14:26-38 and it basically is saying that this is God's order and commands for the churches everywhere and some feel offended because they think they are not doing that and then they attack the man who shares that verse, do you think this is the way we should be as christians? Should we fear nothing but God and seek only to do His will and not shun to speak and share all He shows us.

All I share is by scripture. You must admit that some do not follow scripture always and scripture has a way in Christ leading to reprove, rebuke and exhort. Can we do anything other than speak the truth. Do I become the enemy of some because I speak the truth according to scripture.

I know that many things I share may cause some to reexamine their entire order and gatherings and the men who are over them. But isn't that a good thing? if what I share is according to sound scripture? Should we seek to please men or God?

If i should seek to pleae men i should not be the srvant of Christ, as my brother Paul also said.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I don't think our priest knows he's supposed to be a king. I'll have to tell him next time I see him. Although, I'm pretty sure that if he had a batch of us killed, he'd get in trouble with the bishop.

Hello, what I refer to when I use the word pastor king, is that the modern one man pastor ministry today can be as Lords over the flock a controller over others like a king over subjects

. I also refer to the old testament story of the People of God saying "give us a king" to rule over us. When they did this they wanted to be like all the other nations. God warned them but allowed it. God said they did not want him to rule over them when they did so. Saul was the king and he did kill the priest at one time. If the priesthood of the Ot was a type of the priesthood of all believers today, then similarly the ne manPastor can kill the ministry of the priesthood of all believers as Saul did.

Jesus also warned about not being like Lords over others in the church or like the Gentile authority who are over others in authority.

And I never said any are suppose to be a king over others in the church. Christ is our head. They are like kings. I use this expression figuratively.

 

[Paidiske]

I do agree, though, that this thread probably belongs in General Theology, rather than Traditional Theology.

 

[LoveofTruth]

To an extent I agree with the OP. Long centuries of clericalism have led to a culture in which many people are not encouraged to discover and use their gifts in the church. There is a culture of control and distorted power in many places. And an expectation that ministry - of all kinds - really belongs to the clergy.

Where I part ways with the OP is that I think there is a place for recognized leadership roles - call it pastor, priest, elder, whatever - exercised in a healthy way, even within fairly "traditional" church structures. I do think that doing things "decently and in order" (1 Cor 14:40) etc., allows for structures to be put in place about how the church authorises people to operate in particular roles.

But the key thing is that those structures ought to be about enabling the life of the church, not about keeping people passive and under the "rule" of the leaders.

Hello and God bless,

I am glad that you see the body ministry can be hindered by many looking only to the men who are over them.

But you mentioned 1 Cor 14 where it say "Let all things be done decently and in order."

This order is Gods order that Paul speaks of, not mans order. The order there was described from about verse 26 on, and it shows that God is the one who leads others to "edify " one another. Where all can minister freely as they gather in order that God directs. God rules over them and rules in their heart where they are to wait on their ministering and be led of the Spirit. God works in them to will and to do and to make them perfect unto every good work. God directs them to let the word of Christ dwell in them richly teaching and admonishing one another.

Paul said in verse 26...."Let all things be done unto edifying" ( 1 Cor 14;26)

this word "edifying" is very important in the order here. We see that the word means to build up as a house builder. This is how Christ builds His church. This building is done from within every part of the body. That is how they do all things unto edifying and how they do all things in order, or God's order.

We see proof of this in another verse that Paul spoke to in the word of the Lord, where Paul said;

"But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love._(Ephesians 4:15,18 KJV)

Notice the word "edifying" here and in 1 Cor 14:26, where all things are done unto "edifying".In Ephesians Paul shows by the Spirit that Christ works in every part of the body to the edifying of itself in love. So when Paul tells the Corinthians that all is to be done unto edifying. He is not talking about a man made order but a spiritual one where God works in all to use the gifts and build up (edify) one another. This is not a lecture format "service" or a written handout program where all is done in a tight time frame or and mans order with every event planned out. This is far from that. it is a lively and wonderful body ministry in Christ. Paul tells them to let each speak in order not all at one time in tongues and gifts etc. God is not causing confusion . This was for all the churches of the saints not just Corinth.

I have seen such meetings for years and they are wonderful.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I do agree, though, that this thread probably belongs in General Theology, rather than Traditional Theology.

I think this is traditional theology, right back to the start. But I also think this could be posted in many areas in the forum.

1 Thess 15 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

1 Cor 4:17 "For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church."

Paul taught this order in every church . These were some of the traditions they all had in common. These were handed down to all the churches and Paul wanted them to keep Gods order in every church.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I don't think our priest knows he's supposed to be a king.

I don't think my priest knows she is supposed to be a king. That is really going to mess with her preferred pronouns.

 

[Paidiske]

This order is Gods order that Paul speaks of, not mans order. The order there was described from about verse 26 on, and it shows that God is the one who leads others to "edify " one another.

I don't disagree; but - for example - we see in other epistles that there were qualifications put in place for particular roles. The church can, and must, ensure that those who exercise their gifts do so in ways which are safe and edifying, rather than unsafe or destructive. It's not wrong to have different processes for that in different churches.

This is not a lecture format "service" or a written handout program where all is done in a tight time frame or and mans order with every event planned out.

While we must always be open to what God might be doing, it's also not inherently wrong to exercise gifts for edification in planning and preparing particular service formats. There can be great grace and edification in that style of worship, particularly as it enables everyone to participate.

I have seen such meetings for years and they are wonderful.

I suspect the bottom line is, there is no one right way to do things in church (although there are many wrong ways). Diversity is a gift, and God can work in and through different worship styles.

 

[Paidiske]

I think this is traditional theology,

Not in the sense intended for this forum, though.

 

[LoveofTruth]

First I read your whole post. I agree with nearly all of what you say. But the question is where does one go from here? If one get's saved where are they to fellowship? Maybe in big cities you have things done in the type of way you believe but what about small towns? If there's no such a set up like you say what's a person to do? Not fellowship? That's not good.

I have helped plant and work with home meetings like this in the city and the country, all over.

I believe we need many more workers , apostles and evangelist to go forth in such a work. Pray that God bring more workers for this.

When Jesus sent the apostles out two by two he wanted them to find the house of peace and stay there and work with them. i see Paul doing similar with other workers some apostles and some evangelist and other gifts. He would preach the gospel and win souls then find a home to gather and work with them laying the foundation and directing them to God and the word of His grace that would build them up. And showing the order and basic doctrines. Then he would leave them with God and come back much later, months to years to see how they did and recognize elders. It takes time for elders to come forth in a new work.

It starts as simple as a few brothers gathering in homes for ministry a meal and prayer, with worship and fellowship. As they gather God watches over them. Christ knows how to build his church. But part of the issue is that today we see so many religious forms and orders set up that draw away disciples after the one man leaders or they gather around a super star christian, or they gather around a doctrine, or denomination, rather than around Christ in the midst.

Jesus said where two or more are gathered in my name there am I in the midst. A gathering can be done even in a prison with two faithful believers edifying one another. In fact I have been in meetings with up to seventy people in a large home and in small meetings with a handful. Both were wonderful.

 

[LoveofTruth]

I don't disagree; but - for example - we see in other epistles that there were qualifications put in place for particular roles. The church can, and must, ensure that those who exercise their gifts do so in ways which are safe and edifying, rather than unsafe or destructive. It's not wrong to have different processes for that in different churches.

When I see Paul set in order things lacking in the Corinthian church he seems to not direct them into any planned written order or format. He simply says that they may all edify one another. This, as I showed in Ephesians 4:16, is done by Christ as he works effectual in every part o edify one another.

Yes, there will be mature bothers that are made overseers by the Holy Ghost, elders who watch over others and guard against false doctrine and feed etc. But they are helpers of their joy, and examples, not controllers or Lords over them. Paul seemed to totally and radically trust that Christ would be in the midst to help them. When they became out of that order he exposed that, such as multiple tongue speakers at one time and other issues.

The section about Bishops (overseers) and deacons. Is showing more a function in the church, rather than a office or title.

And elder is who they are, they are a mature brother

and overseer is what they do, they watch over and feed etc

an apostle, prophet, evangelist pastor or teacher are possible gifts some may have.

Not all elders are a pastor gift. Peter was also an elder as he said and an apostle. This shows that any of the five fold gift ministries can be part of the oversight.

But these overseers are not controllers or to hinder the free body ministry in Christ.

The order in a gathering such as this is so liberating and sober with great joy and revelation, miraculous and wonder.

I hope that many believers can be part of such meetings.

I have sat in many gatherings that do not follow God's order in these things or body ministry. I sat there looking at the back of others heads with all attention to the person on a altar above us who spoke a lecture format. At best it was more like an evangelistic meeting than a functioning church. There was no liberty to minister to one another and the entire body is hindered. Yes. I heard scripture read and that is good and some songs were more spiritually edifying than others, and at times some good instruction etc. But this is still hindering the body from God's order and commands for the church.

But in a home meeting where all know each other closely they come together with love and peace greeting one another with joy. Then as the church begins to gather in the homes some will go sit down and one brother might be playing a guitar and some sing with him others may be fellowshipping. Some bring in the food from the different families and people. Once the dust settles a peace comes upon us and and in us as we let the Peace of God rule in our hearts, we slowly settle and gather smiling and gathering unto the Lord. A quiet peace comes upon us as we wait on the Lord, Some are in contemplative repentance and prayer seeking to be at peace with God and one another before they would even partake. Then a brother might share a song, and other can join in if they are led, one of the bothers who has a guitar may start to play along and a peaceful joy comes upon us as we worship the Lord. Tears fall from many eyes. Another will say a prayer and another may be so excited to tell us of a testimony or something the Lord did in His life, it is an environment of wonder. Then a brother may stand up and read a scripture on his heart and hive a brief teaching. Others will be ignited and add to the teaching with a few other scripture and testimonies. Another person may share a revelation and a sister may introduce a new christian in the home who just got saved. As we continue to edify and encourage and teach, with songs being sung freely at any time. we will be as if we had a good meal and are now ready to have a physical meal, remembering the Lord in the bread an d cup along with the meal. Prayer and request for others is part of this. We enjoy a meal together and pray . Then many will fellowship for a while after as we head off to our home. This is soo different than a lecture format looking at the back of each others head as many gather around a famous preacher or doctrine or denomination. Soo different.

Every meeting is different. Some have miraculous, others more worship other strong teaching and revelation. Other wonderful testimony of salvations and street ministry. There is even some disagreements and doctrinal discussion. But it is still wonderful.

 

[Paidiske]

Yes, there will be mature bothers that are made overseers by the Holy Ghost, elders who watch over others and guard against false doctrine and feed etc. But they are helpers of their joy, and examples, npt controllers or Lords over them.

I agree (except I'd add "and sisters,") and I function as one of those elders in a church structure where you seem to be suggesting that's not possible. But it is, even in more institutionalised churches.

I have sat many gatherings that do not follow God's order in these things or body ministry. I sat there looking at the back of others heads with all attention to the person on a altar above us who spoke a lecture format. At best it was more like an evangelistic meeting than a functioning church. There was no liberty to minister to one another and the entire body is hindered. yes i heard scripture read and that is good and some songs were more spiritually edifying than others, and at times some good instruction etc. But this is still hindering the body from God's order and commands for the church.

Part of the difficulty, I think, is the assumption that "church" only happens during a structured service. But of course that's not true. The church is the church 24/7, and many people exercise their gifts primarily outside the service. And that is good and right, because we aren't only meant to be the church at designated times!

 

[Bobber]

I have helped plant and work with home meetings like this in the city and the country, all over.

I believe we need many more workers , apostles and evangelist to go forth in such a work. Pray that God bring more workers for this.

Yeah I've always liked the idea of it. It makes me sad to see some pastors who are in the usual way of doing church. When you have buildings you're always under the pressure to sustain them as well which costs a lot and it distracts one from their true spiritual ministry.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Yeah I've always liked the idea of it. It makes me sad to see some pastors who are in the usual way of doing church. When you have buildings you're always under the pressure to sustain them as well which costs a lot and it distracts one from their true spiritual ministry.

Yes and they are some large castle like structures with expensive pipe organs and the cost of these buildings is huge in some places.

I was visiting a meeting a while back on their mid week assembly where they study the bible (what they call a "Bible study")and they used the building they were using for years (unbiblically called a church). But they were excited that they had recently moved into a large 6 million dollar super structure right beside them (unbiblically called the church).

One time I was there and it was this time of year that some unbiblically call "Christmas", they wanted to give gifts to each other but the so called "pastor" came down that day and said they couldn't do this this together among themselves in that building and that they they had to come to the large superstructure and do it with his approval, (something about fraud laws etc of man). They argued that they had given gifts before among them in the study, but he pressed them and told them to just obey him and he was upset at them. I was sitting there and I had the bible opened in the book of Acts (thats the book they were trying to study). I asked him if i could show something to him (he never met me at that time I had been visiting their mid week meeting for about a few months trying to work with them, we almost had some willing to have a home meeting but then...) so he came over to me with my bible opened and I showed him that in Acts 15 the verse that showed the entire body making decisions, not just one man called "the Pastor", where it said something like, "it seemed good to the apostles and elders with the whole church", to make certain decisions. I also reminded him of Matthew 18 where Jesus said the whole church was allowed and commanded to make decisions, (not just a one man who controls or dominates over them.) To the shock of myself and all there he pointed at the bible and said "we don't do that, I am the head of this church." He then told them to obey him or they were in rebellion (something like that).

I also found out that after 30 years of his reign over them he had no elders in that gathering. He also was not happy that they were having so many bible studies together he wanted them to go door to door and try to bring people to the new large six million dollar structure (unbiblically called a church). I looked at all there after he left and asked them did the hear what he said and did? they said yes, but just looked strait ahead into space with blank expressions on their faces and no one of them did anything or left that place or even made an issue at all or was concerned enough to go say something to him or others. . A few of them actually got upset at me for my stance with scripture and that I made an issue. Some people deserve what they get they love to have it so. I eventually left that place after clearing myself with what the Lord had sent me to share with them.

But from scripture in the apostolic order we see them gathering in homes everywhere. Where no one man was to Lord over them and all can participate as they are in Christ and His order and leading of the Spirit. A home is a family type of environment and they are deliberately smaller gatherings than the 500 to 15,000 people gatherings we see so often today. This smaller gathering allows for the function of mutual edification and a meal to happen. I see the great wisdom in this from God. Even when the 120 met they were in a upper room of a larger house.

 

[LoveofTruth]

Part of the difficulty, I think, is the assumption that "church" only happens during a structured service. But of course that's not true. The church is the church 24/7, and many people exercise their gifts primarily outside the service. And that is good and right, because we aren't only meant to be the church at designated times!

I am speaking specifically when the church comes together, the order of God and His commands for the churches in this assembly to allow Him to work among them and participate, where he is able to "sup with" them and where true inward communion can happen and flow out to the edification of the body in love (Ephesians 4:16).This is what should happen among the saints in an assembly. Yes, we are always part of the church if we abide in Christ through faith even when we are not gathered. But I specifically address the gathering of the saints, "when ye come together".

 

[PloverWing]

I asked him if i could show something to him (he never met me at that time I had been visiting their mid week meeting for about a few months trying to work with them, we almost had some willing to have a home meeting but then...) so he came over to me with my bible opened and I showed him that in Acts 15 the verse that showed the entire body making decisions, not just one man called "the Pastor", where it said something like, "it seemed good to the apostles and elders with the whole church", to make certain decisions. I also reminded him of Matthew 18 where Jesus said the whole church was allowed and commanded to make decisions, (not just a one man who controls or dominates over them.) To the shock of myself and all there he pointed at the bible and said "we don't do that, I am the head of this church." He then told them to obey him or they were in rebellion (something like that).

It's hard for me to speak about this particular congregation, since I've never visited it to see it in person.

But more generally, most traditional denominations/churches do have more than one person that makes decisions for the church. In the spirit of Acts 15, we have gatherings of "elders with the whole church" in which we make decisions together. These gatherings are given names like "councils", "synods", or "conventions". The Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 is an early example of this. Representatives of different regions or congregations within the denomination/church gather for prayerful decision-making.

(For example, I just attended our diocesan convention last week. Representatives from Episcopal congregations across New Jersey gathered -- with prayer, discussion, and reflection -- to make decisions that will affect all of the Episcopalians in New Jersey. I was one of the representatives from our congregation. For another example, every 3 years, Episcopal bishops, priests, and lay leaders across the US gather to make decisions that will affect our national church. There's no one king that makes church decisions for all of us. We do indeed have gatherings of the elders within our church. The Episcopal Church is quite "traditional", in the "traditional theology" sense of the word. Other "traditional" churches have similar mechanisms in which their bishops/priests/pastors/lay leaders/elders gather for discussion and prayerful decision-making.)