The Papacy: The ultimate insult to the Apostle Peter?

[laternonjuror]

Worthless to whom? Not to me, nor to many others.

You are grasping at straws, we are discussing a Catholic theme, or question?
It is a tradition of the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church that answers , or authority must be sought in antiquity,Scripture and interpretaation of scripture by the early saints. Albert Barnes is not an early saint, Churchman! he's not even a member of the Holy Catholic Church, as I have been taught.
S.Paul's injunctions are the basis of my mails. I quote you the instructions of your own people (Roman Catholic Council. Trent 1564.)
If we are to discuss it cannot be , but by accepted rules. Trent says early fathers? What have you a Romanist to object to with that? Were the Trent Bishops misleading us?
"S Paul tells us "Oh Timothy keep the Deposit"! Ch1 ,vs2. Do you want us to abandon the teaching of the fathers? It is the Golden Rule of the Church that truth is sought from Catholic Antiquity, Scripture and councils. not Albert barnes.

 

[patricius79]

You are grasping at straws, we are discussing a Catholic theme, or question?
It is a tradition of the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church that answers , or authority must be sought in antiquity,Scripture and interpretaation of scripture by the early saints. Albert Barnes is not an early saint, Churchman! he's not even a member of the Holy Catholic Church, as I have been taught.
S.Paul's injunctions are the basis of my mails. I quote you the instructions of your own people (Roman Catholic Council. Trent 1564.)
If we are to discuss it cannot be , but by accepted rules. Trent says early fathers? What have you a Romanist to object to with that? Were the Trent Bishops misleading us?
"S Paul tells us "Oh Timothy keep the Deposit"! Ch1 ,vs2. Do you want us to abandon the teaching of the fathers? It is the Golden Rule of the Church that truth is sought from Catholic Antiquity, Scripture and councils. not Albert barnes.

So far, the fathers you have cited have said the Church is built on Peter, as Scripture says, along with many Protestant scholars.

As for your claim that "Petros" means "little rock", there is apparently no patristic evidence for this idea.

We've also apparently established that Irenaeus said that Peter and Paul founded the Church of Rome, and that all the faithful must agree with the Roman Bishop.

 

[laternonjuror]

So far, the fathers you have cited have said the Church is built on Peter, as Scripture says, along with many Protestant scholars.

As for your claim that "Petros" means "little rock", there is apparently no patristic evidence for this idea.

We've also apparently established that Irenaeus said that Peter and Paul founded the Church of Rome, and that all the faithful must agree with the Roman Bishop.

Either you must be blind or it is all to much for you!
First of all there is nothing in the first 300 years, of Christ's revelation, in scripture or in Early tradition that says that the Church is built upon Peter alone. The Church is built upon Christ, He is the chief cornerstone. Peter, along wih the Apostolic college are supporting stones.
Even if you could find, or distort a simple sentence , or word, out of context,there's nothing at all, to align the Bishop of Rome with S. Peter. Further to this, you are denying your own church to prove a sectarian Point!

As For Irenaeus, your quoting the words out of context. He was refering to the Catholic Faith of the Undivided Church, which the then Pope held.Not the sectarian one that is being pedled by your good self.

 

[Albion]

Good points, laternonjuror.

It was the importance of the city of Rome itself that made its bishop the influential person referred to in the comments of some early churchmen that we have on record. And it was "Catholic" in the sense of the faith that is to be considered authentic or genuine (as opposed to various mystery religions and Gnostic sects of the time), that was referred to by Irenaeus, not any church jurisdiction, group, institution, organization, or the like.

 

[laternonjuror]

So far, the fathers you have cited have said the Church is built on Peter, as Scripture says, along with many Protestant scholar.

It is interesting, your fixation on Protestants. I was taught the first Protestants were Lutherans!As an Anglican I rejoice to say that the Church in England at no time allowed the term Protestant to be used in our theological publications. Even when William of Orange, holding Britain with 10. 000 Calvinist and Lutheran mercenaries, asked our bishops to do so, they refused point blank .Replying we are Catholics and have no use for the term!
Whereas the Roman Catholic Church used it to describe their position to the British Government in 1791, describing themselves as Protestant Dissenting Catholics. (Or some such.)
Makes one think, wouldn't you say?

 

[MoreCoffee]

.

 

[laternonjuror]

So far, the fathers you have cited have said the Church is built on Peter, as Scripture says, along with many Protestant scholars.

As for your claim that "Petros" means "little rock", there is apparently no patristic evidence for this idea.*

We've also apparently established that Irenaeus said that Peter and Paul founded the Church of Rome, and that all the faithful must agree with the Roman Bishop.

At least you stand your corner, unlike some!

Even so you'r wrong!

And I say unto thee, thou art Peter;
because I the Rock, thou the stone,
for not from the stone is the Rock, but from the Rock
the Stone;
Because not from 'Christian' is Christ,
But from Christ, 'Christian'.
And upon this Rock I will build my Church;
Not upon the Stone which thou art,
but upon the Rock which thou hast confessed.


A relative translated the latin.

You'r wrong again. Find above a translation of S.Augustine's paraphrases.
I can't see the minute ly written latin to type it,it's very tiny and the book
is quite old , with the paper faded!

 

[patricius79]

Either you must be blind or it is all to much for you!
First of all there is nothing in the first 300 years, of Christ's revelation, in scripture or in Early tradition that says that the Church is built upon Peter alone. The Church is built upon Christ, He is the chief cornerstone. Peter, along wih the Apostolic college are supporting stones.
Even if you could find, or distort a simple sentence , or word, out of context,there's nothing at all, to align the Bishop of Rome with S. Peter. Further to this, you are denying your own church to prove a sectarian Point!

As For Irenaeus, your quoting the words out of context. He was refering to the Catholic Faith of the Undivided Church, which the then Pope held.Not the sectarian one that is being pedled by your good self.

Let's slow down. Is there any historical person in the first thousand years of Church history that says that "Petros" or "Kepha" means "little rock"?

 

[Open Heart]

Let's slow down. Is there any historical person in the first thousand years of Church history that says that "Petros" or "Kepha" means "little rock"?

Excellent question. I'm curious to hear the answer.

 

[laternonjuror]

S. Augustine of Hippo on the question of the ROCK!
Ladies,! Ladies! I posted for you and to you the paraphrase of Augustine, which I'll do again, if you wish, but seeing, it's only about four short posts away?. I can't post the Latin or Greek of the original, my eyesight is faulty but, I did record the English version . It was this business of the Rock, that S.Augustine was referring to.
How-and-ever, if I can uderstand it, I'm sure both of you can, seeing your involving yourselves in discussion on' t.

 

[patricius79]

S. Augustine of Hippo on the question of the ROCK!
Ladies,! Ladies! I posted for you and to you the paraphrase of Augustine, which I'll do again, if you wish, but seeing, it's only about four short posts away?. I can't post the Latin or Greek of the original, my eyesight is faulty but, I did record the English version . It was this business of the Rock, that S.Augustine was referring to.
How-and-ever, if I can uderstand it, I'm sure both of you can, seeing your involving yourselves in discussion on' t.

okay, can you provide a proper citation for this quotation from Augustine, and show that it has been translated correctly?

Apparently the quote you gave doesn't exactly say that "Petros" means little rock.

I know that Augustine said this:

"Number the bishops from the See of Peter. And, in that order of fathers, see whom succeeded whom. This is the Rock which the proud gates of hades do not conquer. All who rejoice in peace, only judge truly." --St. Augustine, Psalmus Contra Pertem Donati.

 

[laternonjuror]

okay, can you provide a proper citation for this quotation from Augustine, and show that it has been translated correctly?

Apparently the quote you gave doesn't exactly say that "Petros" means little rock.

I know that Augustine said this:

"Number the bishops from the See of Peter. And, in that order of fathers, see whom succeeded whom. This is the Rock which the proud gates of hades do not conquer. All who rejoice in peace, only judge truly." --St. Augustine, Psalmus Contra Pertem Donati.

You mention the See of Peter?
Gregory the Great,(History's title not mine,) said there were three Sees of Peter, Rome Antioch and Alexandria and various other fathers claim that all orthodox Bishops share in Peter's apostolic glory. Which is the traditional catholic claim.
"The Faith is to this day preached, through the chain of succession , in the Chair of the Apostle Peter, at Rome and in Antioch, in the Chair of the Evangelist Mark at Alexandria, in the Chair of S.John at Ephesus , in the Chair of James at Jerusalem and now by the bishops of those cities." That was Fulgentus, writing later.( De Trin.)

AS an Anglican, this is what I hold to. "The tradition of the Apostles," wrote Irenaus," in every church all who wish to see what is true church are able to examine it. We can reckon those who were appointed bishops and their successors, down to our own day. (Haer III iii ) .

Regarding S.Augustine! Look carefully at the piece I sent you,Christ is speaking! Look at who is the Stone and who is the Rock?
S>Augustine lived in the North Africa. He was present at a Council of Carthage that refused to carry out the wishes of a Bishop of Rome. They actually sent the Legate, the Pope had sent, away with a stinging ear, carrying a letter telling the papacy not to interfere in African Church business. It was not, according to the Council of Niceae the popes busness to interfere in Sees outside his jurisdiction. This also occured in S.Cyprian's time and again the African Bishops rejected the pope's claims and won their case! When another Augustain actually tried interfering within the Church in Britain, he was sent packing from the Council, by the Bishops of the Church in Britain. 607 AD.

 

[Open Heart]

Patricius said:
okay, can you provide a proper citation for this quotation from Augustine, and show that it has been translated correctly?

Regarding S.Augustine! Look carefully at the piece I sent you,Christ is speaking! Look at who is the Stone and who is the Rock?
S>Augustine lived in the North Africa. He was present at a Council of Carthage that refused to carry out the wishes of a Bishop of Rome. They actually sent the Legate, the Pope had sent, away with a stinging ear, carrying a letter telling the papacy not to interfere in African Church business. It was not, according to the Council of Niceae the popes busness to interfere in Sees outside his jurisdiction. This also occured in S.Cyprian's time and again the African Bishops rejected the pope's claims and won their case! When another Augustain actually tried interfering within the Church in Britain, he was sent packing from the Council, by the Bishops of the Church in Britain. 607 AD

So you CAN;T provide the citation from Augustine. It figures.

 

[patricius79]

You mention the See of Peter?
Gregory the Great,(History's title not mine,) said there were three Sees of Peter, Rome Antioch and Alexandria and various other fathers claim that all orthodox Bishops share in Peter's apostolic glory. Which is the traditional catholic claim.
"The Faith is to this day preached, through the chain of succession , in the Chair of the Apostle Peter, at Rome and in Antioch, in the Chair of the Evangelist Mark at Alexandria, in the Chair of S.John at Ephesus , in the Chair of James at Jerusalem and now by the bishops of those cities." That was Fulgentus, writing later.( De Trin.)

AS an Anglican, this is what I hold to. "The tradition of the Apostles," wrote Irenaus," in every church all who wish to see what is true church are able to examine it. We can reckon those who were appointed bishops and their successors, down to our own day. (Haer III iii ) .

Regarding S.Augustine! Look carefully at the piece I sent you,Christ is speaking! Look at who is the Stone and who is the Rock?
S>Augustine lived in the North Africa. He was present at a Council of Carthage that refused to carry out the wishes of a Bishop of Rome. They actually sent the Legate, the Pope had sent, away with a stinging ear, carrying a letter telling the papacy not to interfere in African Church business. It was not, according to the Council of Niceae the popes busness to interfere in Sees outside his jurisdiction. This also occured in S.Cyprian's time and again the African Bishops rejected the pope's claims and won their case! When another Augustain actually tried interfering within the Church in Britain, he was sent packing from the Council, by the Bishops of the Church in Britain. 607 AD.

Can't comment on all that. Not a Church historian.

In the post I gave in post 111, why does Augustine say that that Succession of the See of Peter--"See", not plural--is the Rock which the gates of Hell won't conquer?

As to Cyprian:

With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the chair of Peter and to the principal Church, in which sacerdotal unity has its source; nor did they take thought that these are Romans, whose faith was praised by the preaching Apostle, and among whom it is not possible for perfidy to have entrance." (Cyprian, Letter 59

How do you explain this quotation?

Also, Cyprian says,

There speaks Peter, upon whom the Church would be built, teaching in the name of the Church and showing that even if a stubborn and proud multitude withdraws because it does not wish to obey, yet the Church does not withdraw from Christ. (Cyprian, Letter 66)

 

[laternonjuror]

okay, can you provide a proper citation for this quotation from Augustine, and show that it has been translated correctly?
Apparently the quote you gave doesn't exactly say that "Petros" means little rock.
" does when I read it and up to now, every scholar accepts it as such".
Popes & Patriarchs. Michael Welton, Conciliar Press, Ben Lomand . California.

I know that Augustine said this:

"Number the bishops from the See of Peter. And, in that order of fathers, see whom succeeded whom. This is the Rock which the proud gates of hades do not conquer. All who rejoice in peace, only judge truly." --St. Augustine, Psalmus Contra Pertem Donati.

okay, can you provide a proper citation for this quotation from Augustine, and show that it has been translated correctly?
Augustine possibly did, but what was he getting at? The catholic position was that the Church was built on Firstly Christ, then the Apostles, with S.Peter being the First of the Apostolic College. First there was the Apostolic Sees, according to Pope Gregory these were Rome, Antioch and Alexandria. Being associated with S.Peter.
Apparently S.John was at Ephesus and there were others. But nothing to elevate them, Other than they were apostolic in some way!
Notice that S.Augustine nowhere mentions Pope or papacy. In fact from the beginning off the discussion, you have not brought any evidence to support the theories you profess. This is inspite of the clear injunctions of your Council of Trent, that all scripture should be read through the lens of the Early Fathers

So all sees were apostolic in that they were catholic, if they were not catholic, or didn't have a recognised affiliation they were suspect.Why should not one bishop quote the leader of the Apostolic college? Where's the connection of Peter with Pope??

 

[patricius79]

Well, all the fathers you've quotes so far have said the Church is built on Peter. And we've seen how both Irenaeus and Cyprian both connect Rome with Peter. Irenaeus says that Peter helped found and organize the ROman Church, and that the whole church must agree with the Roman succession of Bishops. And Cyprian calls Rome "the chair of Peter and the principle church, in which sacerdotal unity has its source".

 

[fatherjimparker]

The history of the pope's over the centuries did the following in Peter's name: having innocent people murdered, having people strangled to death, burning people at the stake, having illegitimate children, sex with prostitutes, sex with children, homosexuality, protecting child molesters, digging up corpses and putting them on trial, killing someone for wanting to translate the Bible for people, etc. Why do they claim to do this stuff in Peter's name? Do you think Peter would approve of the Papacy? The answer is no. It's not a trick question.

Why does the Roman Catholic Church continue to dishonor the memory of the Apostle Peter with these "successors of Peter?" They should be ashamed of themselves and so should every Catholic having the audacity to associate the "papacy" with the Apostle Peter!!

Why do you obsess with what other people may or may not have done?

Do you need someone to hate so you can feel superior?

Are you sinless? Is your mother a virgin?

Why don't you get over your audacity to judge others when it is Jesus alone who will judge mankind?

Try loving your neighbor instead of hating him.

Keep practicing until you get good at it.

And, while you're trying to figure out how to love your neighbor the pope, start by praying for him.

 

[laternonjuror]

Well, all the fathers you've quotes so far have said the Church is built on Peter. And we've seen how both Irenaeus and Cyprian both connect Rome with Peter. Irenaeus says that Peter helped found and organize the ROman Church, and that the whole church must agree with the Roman succession of Bishops. And Cyprian calls Rome "the chair of Peter and the principle church, in which sacerdotal unity has its source".

All your evasion doesn't mean a thing, except to show that you cannot connct S.Peter with the Bishop of Rome. The Roman Church , is and was, the Suburbicarian Church of Rome, which in 1564, connived at a coup detat within the Church causing the bishops, in much of Northern Europe to abandon their Christ given responsibilities on to the shoulders of the Bishop of Rome. According to many, the Roman Church is little more than a Catholict sect. A large one certainly, but still a sect centred on the Papacy!

 

[Open Heart]

All your evasion doesn't mean a thing, except to show that you cannot connct S.Peter with the Bishop of Rome. The Roman Church , is and was, the Suburbicarian Church of Rome, which in 1564, connived at a coup detat within the Church causing the bishops, in much of Northern Europe to abandon their Christ given responsibilities on to the shoulders of the Bishop of Rome. According to many, the Roman Church is little more than a Catholict sect. A large one certainly, but still a sect centred on the Papacy!

You try and try and try, but to no avail.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You try and try and try, but to no avail.

And you evade, but to what purpose?