The Papacy: The ultimate insult to the Apostle Peter?

[patricius79]

Dear friend,
"Jesus gave Simon the name Rock"? But I've already given you a list of early fathers who think differently!! I've already pointed out that the Roman/ Latin council of Trent, tells us that the scriptures should be seen through the lens of the early fathers!!Which is the Rule of faith!
With all due respect are you telling me that you,( patricius 79.) know better than the Fathers of the Church?

Further, if you follow scripture, certainly the Psalms, the term Rock is applied to God, in one aspect or 'tother in most if not all cases.
!

Could you give an example of a Church father who says that Petros (Peter) does not mean "Rock"?

The Protestant scholar DA Carson says that petros means "rock", and that the Church is built on Simon Rock.

As for Chrysostom, whom you mention... Chrysostom says, "when I say Peter, I mean the unbroken Rock, the unshaken foundation". Chrysostom calls Peter "the foundation of the Church"

Chrysostom also says that Simon Rock had the same authority in himself that the other Apostles had collectively, and that he has the "headship" of the Church.

Chrystostom also calls Peter "the mouth of the apostles" and "the ruler of the whole world"

Also, what do you think "petros" means?

 

[laternonjuror]

Could you give an example of a Church father who says that Petros (Peter) does not mean "Rock"?

The Protestant scholar DA Carson says that petros means "rock", and that the Church is built on Simon Rock.

As for Chrysostom, whom you mention... Chrysostom says, "when I say Peter, I mean the unbroken Rock, the unshaken foundation". Chrysostom calls Peter "the foundation of the Church"
S.Cyprian said, "Certainly the rest of the apostles were what Peter was, endued with an equal fellowship of dignity and power."

Origen held that the Rock is every of disciple Christ and said,"But if you think that the whole church was built by God on Peter alone, what would you say about John, the son of thunder, or each of the apostles.?Or shall we venture to say that the gates of hell shall not prevail against but shall prevail against the other apostles and those that are perfect? Are not the words in question,'the gates of hell shall not prevail against it,' and 'upon this rock will I build my Church,said in the case of ALL AND EACH OF THEM?"
Chrysostom, explains the words thus,,"that is upon the rock of the Confession!!"

There are plenty more? .

Chrysostom also says that Simon Rock had the same authority in himself that the other Apostles had collectively, and that he has the "headship" of the Church.

Chrystostom also calls Peter "the mouth of the apostles?" and "the ruler of the whole world?"
Christ was the Cornerstone and by all means regarding S.Peter all the rest of the apostolic college was, just what S.Peter was.How-and-ever? Where has this anything to do with the Bishop of Rome! Where is he mentioned along with S.Pete

Well! You have been stirred , at last, but your situation hasn't improved. First of all the Chap you quote can only just be classed as an early church father , "first three hundred years," this man died (S. John Chrysostom ) in 407Ad. I don't reject him, though.Maldonatus said "There are among the ancient authors some who intepret 'on this rock,' that is,'on this faith' or,'on this Confession of faith,' in which thou hast called ME, the Son of the living God.
S.John Chrysostm, explains the words under discussion as, "Upon the Rock of the confession."
Origen, Scholar, but not a Saint.
"but if you think that the whole church was built by God upon Peter alone, what would you say about John, the son of thunder,
or each of the apostles? Or shall we venture to say that the gates of hell shall not prevail against Peter , but shall prevail against the other apostles and such as are pefect?
Are not the words in question ,'the gates of hell shall not prevail against it,'and,' upon this rock will I build My Church'said in the case of all and each of them."
I can go on quoting if you wish?
Early fathers and later ones as well

 

[laternonjuror]

The above reply has gone hay wire, for which I apologise.
It says what I want it to, but is really my reply in two posts with a lot jumbled up and some missing!

 

[laternonjuror]

What do you think Petros means?[QUOTE/]

The Greek equivalent for Peter is petros meaning,'little stone,.'
The Greek word for rock is petra. Petra is feminine; therefore it could not refer to a masculine Peter,( a fact conveniently ignored by Roman Apologists).
Therefore what Jesus actually said is ,
: YOU ARE PETER, (petros - a little stone) AND UPON THIS ROCK(petra-your proclamation of me as Christ,) I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH, since you alone could not support the weight of its foundation."
In other words Jesus will build His Church upon a persons profession of faith in Him as the Christ.
Not on a mere mortal man such as Peter. Sure resolution of this problem lies in the appropriate definition of the term ,'ROCK.'
S. Paul answers this for us, He states without qualification that Christ IS THE ROCK". I Corinthians ,'For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid , which is ,JESUS CHRIST."
Papal Infallibilty.pg,23.

 

[patricius79]

Well! You have been stirred , at last, but your situation hasn't improved. First of all the Chap you quote can only just be classed as an early church father , "first three hundred years," this man died (S. John Chrysostom ) in 407Ad. I don't reject him, though.Maldonatus said "There are among the ancient authors some who intepret 'on this rock,' that is,'on this faith' or,'on this Confession of faith,' in which thou hast called ME, the Son of the living God.
S.John Chrysostm, explains the words under discussion as, "Upon the Rock of the confession."
Origen, Scholar, but not a Saint.
"but if you think that the whole church was built by God upon Peter alone, what would you say about John, the son of thunder,
or each of the apostles? Or shall we venture to say that the gates of hell shall not prevail against Peter , but shall prevail against the other apostles and such as are pefect?
Are not the words in question ,'the gates of hell shall not prevail against it,'and,' upon this rock will I build My Church'said in the case of all and each of them."
I can go on quoting if you wish?
Early fathers and later ones as well

Yes, Chrysostom says that the Church is built on Simon Rock's Confession, as well as Simon Rock himself. That would fit with the early Church's idea of the Papacy.

For example in about 110 A.D. St. Ignatius says that Rome is the "the Church which holds the presidency". And also in the 100s, St. Irenaeus says that all the churches in the whole world should agree with the Bishop of Rome

Also, if "Petros" means little stone, are you saying that Cepha also means "little stone"?

 

[laternonjuror]

Yes, Chrysostom says that the Church is built on Simon Rock's Confession, as well as Simon Rock himself. That would fit with the early Church's idea of the Papacy.

For example in about 110 A.D. St. Ignatius says that Rome is the "the Church which holds the presidency". And also in the 100s, St. Irenaeus says that all the churches in the whole world should agree with the Bishop of Rome

Also, if "Petros" means little stone, are you saying that Cepha also means "little stone"?

 

[patricius79]

I forgot to ask again: do you know of any Church father who says that Peter means "little rock" or something other than "Rock"?


It sounds like you think Jesus said, "you are Little Rock, and upon this big rock I will build my Church"

Is that right?

 

[laternonjuror]

Could you give an example of a Church father who says that Petros (Peter) does not mean "Rock"?

The Protestant scholar DA Carson says that petros means "rock", and that the Church is built on Simon Rock.

As for Chrysostom, whom you mention... Chrysostom says, "when I say Peter, I mean the unbroken Rock, the unshaken foundation". Chrysostom calls Peter "the foundation of the Church"

Chrysostom also says that Simon Rock had the same authority in himself that the other Apostles had collectively, and that he has the "headship" of the Church.

Chrystostom also calls Peter "the mouth of the apostles" and "the ruler of the whole world"

Also, what do you think "petros" means?

Petros? A little stone.Again?
Your Reference D.A.Carson? . He is no early father, so his contribution is questionable as for relevance. In fact it is useless and is not acceptable!
As for Chrysostom? He explains quite clearly, saying that , it is ,'upon the rock of the confession,'
S. Hilary explains,' that it is the rock of the confession that is the building up of the Church.'
Even so, everything in these arguments are wasted, because if we were to grant your argument, which you,dear lady cannot sustain, it would win nothing tangible, because there's no link, or only the most fragile or tenuous, between S.Peter and the papacy.
Interestingly Roman Antiquity gives us, "Grant' we beseech Thee, Almighty God, that thou wouldst not suffer us, whom thou hast established on the Rock of the Apostles Confession to be shaken by any disturbance." Roman Missal. Vigil. SS.Peter & Paul.

 

[MoreCoffee]

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[laternonjuror]

I forgot to ask again: do you know of any Church father who says that Peter means "little rock" or something other than "Rock"?


It sounds like you think Jesus said, "you are Little Rock, and upon this big rock I will build my Church"

Is that right?

Dear lady,
I have publications from the Orthodox Church in America, that claims that the word used by Our Lord, was most likely
Petros= a little stone. Christ is oftimes mentioned as the Cornerstone one of the rocks that support the cornerstone is obviously ,'a little 'stone. Besides which Petra is feminine and it is unlikely to be used for one who is usually potrayed as a,' burly fisherman.'
One of the publications is named as being printed by The S.John of Kronstadt Press. No author is named.

 

[Open Heart]

Your Reference D.A.Carson? .

The reference to this man was because he was a *Protestant* scholar, to show that it is not just Catholics that interpret the rock as Peter.

 

[laternonjuror]

The reference to this man was because he was a *Protestant* scholar, to show that it is not just Catholics that interpret the rock as Peter.

People may believe what they want to believe,however we are discussing the Apostle Peter and the papacy, would you not agree?
At the founding conference of the modern Roman Church, the new ,Creed of Pius IV, regarding scripture insisted that it should be , "professed and understood ...according to the unanimous consent of the holy fathers'.
But that consent is not forth coming, which makes one wonder if Romanists are all popes of their own making when they insist that the term ROCK, is used to further the idea of Roman supremacy!
The protestant scholar was a find, indeed! But Trent doesn't count him as an Early father! Neither should we. The first three centuries are their years.
All of which goes to show that modern romanists who hold to the Rock theory are, to say the least , stretching credulity just a tad to far!
I have given in previous posts , a collection of utterances from early church fathers of the first 300 years and they think that what Rock refers to is not S.Peter, but, S.Peters confession.

 

[MoreCoffee]

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[MoreCoffee]

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[patricius79]

Petros? A little stone.Again?
Your Reference D.A.Carson? . He is no early father, so his contribution is questionable as for relevance. In fact it is useless and is not acceptable!
As for Chrysostom? He explains quite clearly, saying that , it is ,'upon the rock of the confession,'
S. Hilary explains,' that it is the rock of the confession that is the building up of the Church.'
Even so, everything in these arguments are wasted, because if we were to grant your argument, which you,dear lady cannot sustain, it would win nothing tangible, because there's no link, or only the most fragile or tenuous, between S.Peter and the papacy.
Interestingly Roman Antiquity gives us, "Grant' we beseech Thee, Almighty God, that thou wouldst not suffer us, whom thou hast established on the Rock of the Apostles Confession to be shaken by any disturbance." Roman Missal. Vigil. SS.Peter & Paul.

Is there any Church father who says that "Petros" or "Kepha" means "little rock"?

As for Chrysostom, he says that the foundation of the Church is both Peter himself, and his confession.

So some fathers speak of Peter's confession as being the rock. But they also say Peter is the Rock.

As for Hilary: "Blessed Simon who, after his confession of the Mystery, was set to be the foundation-stone of the Church and received the Keys of the Kingdom." (Hilary, De Trinitate, 6:20).

Likewise, you mentioned Origen (who isn't actually a church father, because he was a heretic): Origin also said the Church is built on Peter

As to the connection between Simon Rock and the Papacy, this is just historical fact.

For example St. Irenaeus says the greatest Church is Rome, which was founded by Peter and Paul, and that all the faithful in the whole world must agree with the Succession of Bishops in Rome, because it has the faith given by the Apostles (against hereses 3:3:2)

 

[Open Heart]

And upon this rock ... - This passage has given rise to many different interpretations. Some have supposed that the word “rock” refers to Peter’s confession, and that Jesus meant to say, upon this rock, this truth that thou hast confessed, that I am the Messiah and upon confessions of this from all believers, I will build my church. Confessions like this shall be the test of piety, and in such confessions shall my church stand amid the flames of persecution, the fury of the gates of hell. Others have thought that Jesus referred to himself. Christ is called a rock, Isa 28:16; 1Peter 2:8. And it has been thought that he turned from Peter to himself, and said, “Upon this rock, this truth that I am the Messiah - upon myself as the Messiah, I will build my church.” Both these interpretations, though plausible, seem forced upon the passage to avoid the main difficulty in it. Another interpretation is, that the word “rock” refers to Peter himself. This is the obvious meaning of the passage... “Thou art a rock. Thou hast shown thyself firm, and suitable for the work of laying the foundation of the church. Upon thee will I build it. Thou shalt be highly honoured; thou shalt be first in making known the gospel to both Jews and Gentiles.”

I couldn't have said it better.

 

[laternonjuror]

As for Chrysostom, he says that the foundation of the Church is both Peter himself, and his confession.
So some fathers speak of Peter's confession as being the rock. But they also say Peter is the Rock.
As for Hilary: "Blessed Simon who, after his confession of the Mystery, was set to be the foundation-stone of the Church and received the Keys of the Kingdom." (Hilary, De Trinitate, 6:20).[QUOTE/]

We're going around in circles. Regarding Chrysostom's affirmation of S.Peter, what does that mean against his denial? After all we have S Paul's "Other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (1 Cor,iii.11.) This interpretation is sanctioned by S.Peter himself.9 (1Pet, ii. 4-8

Likewise, you mentioned Origen (who isn't actually a church father, because he was a heretic): Origin also said the Church is built on Peter.
Origen is in the accepted time scale and what was his heresy? if,i'm right it was against leniency? becareful he might come to surprise us all.

As to the connection between Simon Rock and the Papacy, this is just historical fact.
I Like your sense of humour! Only the voice of the Church connects Peter with Rome and there is no practical evidence we can weigh up! Your problem, if I might say is that when evidence of the Church, ( In this case Trent ) is offered, you ignore it!

For example St. Irenaeus says the greatest Church is Rome, which was founded by Peter and Paul, and that all the faithful in the whole world must agree with the Succession of Bishops in Rome, because it has the faith given by the Apostles (against hereses 3:3:2)

Rome was the greatest city in the whole world, because it was the seat of the Empire. This is where the Pope got his authority, not from S.Peter or S.Paul, but from the papacy being used as a Dep't of State and the Bishop of Rome being a minister of the same.
Lady!

Albert Barnes, a Presbyterian minister, also comments:

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[laternonjuror]

Albert Barnes, a Presbyterian minister, also comments:

Matt 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter - The word “Peter,” in Greek, means “a rock.” It was given to Simon by Christ when he called him to be a disciple, John 1:42[QUOTE/]
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With the greatest respect in the world , both to Albert Barnes and yourself, his evidence in this discussion is worthless!
Your Church at Trent, stipulated, in the illicit Creed of Pius IVth, that scripture has to be read/ through the writings of the Holy fathers. meaning that the scriptures should be seen and understood through the eyes of the first three centuries. With the best will and intention in the world I cannot believe that Albert Barnes, (God Bless him,) is in that categorie?

 

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[patricius79]

Rome was the greatest city in the whole world, because it was the seat of the Empire. This is where the Pope got his authority, not from S.Peter or S.Paul, but from the papacy being used as a Dep't of State and the Bishop of Rome being a minister of the same.
Lady!

Not according to St. Irenaeus, for example, writing in the 100s. Why do you reject Irenaeus's historic testimony that the supreme authority of the Bishop of Rome is spiritual?

As to your argument that Jesus Christ is the only foundation. Of course that's true. According to the Bible that doesn't prevent the Church from being built on the Apostles and Prophets, so why would that prevent the Church from being built on Peter, as Scripture says?

As to Chrysostom, does he ever say that the Church is not built on Peter, but ONLY his confession? As we've seen he says its built on Peter, as well as his Confession.

You quoted Hilary, who says that the Church is built on Peter, just as Scripture says.

As to "Petros", do we have a quote from the fathers saying that "Petros" or "Kepha" means "little rock"?