The Nicene Creed

[BukiRob]

I guess we'll never agree. I don't think the Church ever went off the rails. It's God's Church, His responsibility. What good the Church has done, He moved. What bad the Church has done, He allowed.

Who do you think Gd is speaking about when he says COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE????????

 

[JeffTheLearner]

Marcion is a side track in this thread.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to get into Marcionism ...that's what I myself label the fruits of this falling away, guess I got carried away in pointing out why I do.

 

[pat34lee]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to get into Marcionism ...that's what I myself label the fruits of this falling away, guess I got carried away in pointing out why I do.

No problem, I do it myself. But I want answers to my earlier question about the creed.

 

[Lulav]

Let's see if this gets erased again or if they got the message.

If you go by the wording of the Nicene Creed and scripture, is there anything that says Yeshua had divine powers as a human? IOW, was he 100% God and 100% man at the same time? Or did he lay aside his divinity to become 100% human for the duration of his life here?

My 2sk, 100% means complete, if you are 100+100%=200 which mathematically in this case be incorrect.

I believe G-d was with the Son, as Yeshua said I am in the Father and the Father is in me. That is like on the same wave length, meaning in complete harmony in thinking and doing.

But when he was on the cross he cried out 'Why have you forsaken me'. The only reason I can see for this is at this time when the Father put the sins of the world on the son, He had to disassociate/disconnect Himself from the Son for that split second. It was awful and the reason why I believe he expired so quickly.

G-d shows us that there is a barrier between sin and death and himself. You can see this in the Tabernacle statutes.

And the word was made flesh. He walked among us.....................why do you ask, show us the Father? if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.

In flesh so we could relate, but not in flesh in all ways, G-d doesn't have a mother, G-d cannot die, etc.

 

[BukiRob]

My 2sk, 100% means complete, if you are 100+100%=200 which mathematically in this case be incorrect.

I believe G-d was with the Son, as Yeshua said I am in the Father and the Father is in me. That is like on the same wave length, meaning in complete harmony in thinking and doing.

But when he was on the cross he cried out 'Why have you forsaken me'. The only reason I can see for this is at this time when the Father put the sins of the world on the son, He had to disassociate/disconnect Himself from the Son for that split second. It was awful and the reason why I believe he expired so quickly.

G-d shows us that there is a barrier between sin and death and himself. You can see this in the Tabernacle statutes.

And the word was made flesh. He walked among us.....................why do you ask, show us the Father? if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.

In flesh so we could relate, but not in flesh in all ways, G-d doesn't have a mother, G-d cannot die, etc.

You all are making this way harder than it has to be....

Only Gd receives worship. Only Gd can forgive sin ( I do not speak about a sin committed directly against you)

Yeshua on more than one occasion did and experience both.

If he allowed himself to be worshiped he is either Gd or it was horrific blasphemy. He proclaimed to forgive sin on 2 occasions that I can think of off the top of my head. Only Gd can do that so his actions were consistent with being Gd or he was engaging in blasphemy and was as a man incapable of forgiving sin.

Since ALL of his other actions were in total harmony with scripture and Gd I can therefore conclude he is and was Gd

 

[Lulav]

You all are making this way harder than it has to be....

Only Gd receives worship. Only Gd can forgive sin ( I do not speak about a sin committed directly against you)

Yeshua on more than one occasion did and experience both.

If he allowed himself to be worshiped he is either Gd or it was horrific blasphemy. He proclaimed to forgive sin on 2 occasions that I can think of off the top of my head. Only Gd can do that so his actions were consistent with being Gd or he was engaging in blasphemy and was as a man incapable of forgiving sin.



Since ALL of his other actions were in total harmony with scripture and Gd I can therefore conclude he is and was Gd

He was representing G-d, he even said as much. He said the words that came out of his mouth were not his words, but the Father's.

Remember Moses and Aaron? They went before Pharaoh and G-d told him that he would tell him what to say.
Moses represented G-d and Aaron was his prophet. So they may have been Moses sentiments, but they were not his words.

G-d spoke to Moses, and Moses spoke to the people.

This time G-d spoke to the people through another like Moses whom we were supposed to listen to.

Some believe this was Joshua or Yehoshua, and funny enough it was! but much later on.

 

[ContraMundum]

Who do you think Gd is speaking about when he says COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE????????

If God founded the Church, why would He bid us to come out of her? Seems rather daft. Obviously the verse in question cannot be about the Church.

 

[ContraMundum]

The church teaches you to sit in pews and listen and never grow or progress in the faith. It does not train you to be disciples as Yeshua did with those he taught.

No, it doesn't teach you to never grow and sit in the pews like a vegetable. I ought to know. I'm one of the teachers. I teach growth and more. Do you even go to Church?

Can you stop building straw men now?

 

[pat34lee]

My 2sk, 100% means complete, if you are 100+100%=200 which mathematically in this case be incorrect.

Part of this has to do with the rules and Statement of Faith at the forum, in the Christian section, anyway. It got a few posts removed from the Mariology subforum and one post erased here, though this isn't part of the Messianic SoF or rules.

"Faith groups that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God and fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF."
http://www.christianforums.com/help/rules/​

I hold that the above goes further than scripture and the creed, and is unsound theology whatever the sect. I remember the wording though from growing up Southern Baptist.

 

[ContraMundum]

Part of this has to do with the rules and Statement of Faith at the forum, in the Christian section, anyway. It got a few posts removed from the Mariology subforum and one post erased here, though this isn't part of the Messianic SoF or rules.

"Faith groups that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God and fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF."
http://www.christianforums.com/help/rules/​

I hold that the above goes further than scripture and the creed, and is unsound theology whatever the sect. I remember the wording though from growing up Southern Baptist.

Something tells me you are not going to win the argument against the CF SoF. I think their understanding of the Creed is acceptable.

 

[JeffTheLearner]

You all are making this way harder than it has to be....

Only Gd receives worship. Only Gd can forgive sin ( I do not speak about a sin committed directly against you)

Yeshua on more than one occasion did and experience both.

If he allowed himself to be worshiped he is either Gd or it was horrific blasphemy. He proclaimed to forgive sin on 2 occasions that I can think of off the top of my head. Only Gd can do that so his actions were consistent with being Gd or he was engaging in blasphemy and was as a man incapable of forgiving sin.

Since ALL of his other actions were in total harmony with scripture and Gd I can therefore conclude he is and was Gd

I understand where you are coming from, but from what I have personally seen, the implication that only Yah can be worshiped is a SDA teaching that I myself think overly emphasizes the worship topic to include all varying degrees of worship.

Remember Messiah is also the King of Israel, and though it may seem like a form of worship to honor a King, I myself don't think it is the same, and I don't recall anywhere in scripture where the assemblies gathered to "sing praises" to only Messiah, and even the Apostles made clear that they were thankful to the Father for the actions of The Son.

...but on the other hand when you think of the identity of Messiah that is implied, like in Revelations 19:13 where it boldly states "He is clothed in a garment dipped in blood. His name is called “THE WORD OF GOD.” ...if Messiah is in fact Yah's Living "Word" then in a way He is The Father, but yet a product/(or begotten) of The Father at the same time. Just like if you heard my voice, you would evidently say that voice is me, but Yah The Father says that Voice of His is His Only Begotten, His Seed of Man, His Son.

This is where you get the dispute that Messiah, although He is "The First of Creation" and the Means by which all creation was created, for The Father "SPOKE" all creation into existence following the Genesis narrative ...that in fact Messiah The Son is too a Creation, but distinctly different from all, and set apart, and Holy.

For this reason you get theories like "Messiah has a beginning" or that "He is subordinate to The Father" ...because He is The Words of The Father that does His will ...it was not until our Messiah (The Word) was born of a woman where then He was endowed with the liberty of mankind to either choose good. or choose evil. It is apparent our Messiah choose the good, and being the means of creation by which all were created, makes this choice significant for all in a salvation.

But the big difference is that This Man, aka "Living Word" Who the heavens, and the earth, including mankind as well were created By. That He was able to save all through His death and resurrection.

You ever think to yourself ...Why a death? Why a resurrection? How can that save? How is that even significant?

Although we are taught by many to only focus solely toward the sacrificial system to explain this, we tend to be satisfied with that explanation neglecting to understand the mechanisms behind it. Though many love to claim "it is an unattainable mystery" ...I say they are wrong, and the means of our salvation is not only explainable, but evident throughout all scripture.

If our Messiah as (The Word) died, His blood made atonement for the World in a sacrificial sense, but in a mechanical sense His death meant the death of all that was created through Him. just like His resurrection means that all will be raised again through Him. This again initiates The Fathers "separation of light from darkness" upon all that was created (I like to call it His "repeat button" or "do over button") ...or a "great judgment" where the wicked are divided from the redeemed, and a New Heaven, and a New Earth can manifest again as it was but undefiled.

But also being Messiah embodying the form of flesh was raised up in that flesh, and now is The world's most desirable, and eligible Bachelor and Prince, able to "become one flesh" to whomever He goes into marriage covenant with ...which would be that "Church" of Living Stones, His bride Israel, The "virgin daughter of Zion."

In this future bond where He (The Son) is Head of His Household, and Highpriest will make heirs of eternal life, and co~inheriter's of all the glories of splendor given Him from The Father.

It's a really awesome thing to ponder when you think about it ...You can't help to praise Yah for such a wonderful salvation!

 

[pat34lee]

No, it doesn't teach you to never grow and sit in the pews like a vegetable. I ought to know. I'm one of the teachers. I teach growth and more. Do you even go to Church?

Can you stop building straw men now?

Do you teach repentance and turning away from sins, so you don't keep committing them? Do your members visit hospitals and prisons and use the tithes and offerings to help the poor and elderly in the congregation?

I went to the Baptist church from kindergarten until I graduated high school. I went to various other churches after that, mostly Pentacostal, because my mother went through the system of them. I saw the same thing in all of them. They don't want everyone running off to start new churches or become missionaries. They don't want division, so they don't preach too much about sin or personal accountability. They want you to stay and tithe and be comfortable forever. Bring in the entertainment, music, movies, youth diversions, etc. Funny, but if Satan can't keep someone from getting saved, he wants them to keep religion in the church too. It is no danger to him there.

 

[chunkofcoal]

pat34Lee,
It doesn't sound like you had a great experience in church but there are decent and kind Christians out there. Sometimes you have to be in a low place and in a bad place to see them but they are out there. I've been in that low and bad place in my life before; I hope you never are.

 

[Lulav]

Part of this has to do with the rules and Statement of Faith at the forum, in the Christian section, anyway. It got a few posts removed from the Mariology subforum and one post erased here, though this isn't part of the Messianic SoF or rules.

"Faith groups that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God and fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF."
http://www.christianforums.com/help/rules/​

I hold that the above goes further than scripture and the creed, and is unsound theology whatever the sect. I remember the wording though from growing up Southern Baptist.

I didn't realize they added that to the rules.

It brought to mind this

21“Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

 

[pat34lee]

pat34Lee,
It doesn't sound like you had a great experience in church but there are decent and kind Christians out there. Sometimes you have to be in a low place and in a bad place to see them but they are out there. I've been in that low and bad place in my life before; I hope you never are.

There are a few Christians everywhere, and I mean few. Even in churches. It is the system that is corrupt, not the people. I am in a home fellowship now, and wouldn't trade it for a large group.

 

[YESLORDIWILL]

Part of this has to do with the rules and Statement of Faith at the forum, in the Christian section, anyway. It got a few posts removed from the Mariology subforum and one post erased here, though this isn't part of the Messianic SoF or rules.

"Faith groups that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God and fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF."
http://www.christianforums.com/help/rules/​

I hold that the above goes further than scripture and the creed, and is unsound theology whatever the sect. I remember the wording though from growing up Southern Baptist.

Wonder how long Jesus would last on ChristianForums?

Ever heard the saying, a duck couldn't win a duck calling contest

 

[Open Heart]

The church teaches you to sit in pews and listen and never grow or progress in the faith. It does not train you to be disciples as Yeshua did with those he taught.

I have not found that to be the case.

I think people just have different learning modalities. There are people who learn okay in large group lectures and people who don't, who need small groups with interaction, or even one on one perhaps with even a little hands on. It is no shame to admit you don't fit into the one size fits all of most churches.

 

[Open Heart]

Who do you think Gd is speaking about when he says COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE????????

Ancient roman paganism. You know, Jupiter, Venus, all them gods and goddesses.

 

[Open Heart]

Do you teach repentance and turning away from sins, so you don't keep committing them? Do your members visit hospitals and prisons and use the tithes and offerings to help the poor and elderly in the congregation?

Why do you insist on being so insulting to the man?

 

[Open Heart]

If you go by the wording of the Nicene Creed and scripture, is there anything that says Yeshua had divine powers as a human? IOW, was he 100% God and 100% man at the same time? Or did he lay aside his divinity to become 100% human for the duration of his life here?

We know for a fact that Christ gave up some of his divine powers; for example, God is omnipresent, but Jesus on earth could be in only one location at a time. This is NOT the same thing as saying he was less than 100% God, however. I think that some of your confusion may lie here.