The Nicene Creed

[pat34lee]

copied from: http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/nicene.htm

Traditional Wording

I believe in one God,
the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only begotten Son of God,
begotten of his Father before all worlds,
God of God, Light of Light,
very God of very God,
begotten, not made,
being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;
who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven,
and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost
of the Virgin Mary,
and was made man;
and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried;
and the third day he rose again
according to the Scriptures,
and ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
and he shall come again, with glory,
to judge both the quick and the dead;
whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Life,
who proceedeth from the Father [and the Son];
who with the Father and the Son together
is worshipped and glorified;
who spake by the Prophets.
And I believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church;
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;
and I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. AMEN.

Modern Wording

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son].
With the Father and the Son
he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. AMEN.

 

[Open Heart]

My profession of faith!!!!

 

[pat34lee]

Since the Nicene Creed seems not to be part of the SoF or Rules in this forum, I have a question about it.
More specifically about what the second paragraph says about Jesus. I am not asking for doctrine, just what the creed says.

Jesus was God's son from before creation. Jesus became man, lived and died, resurrected and ascended. Jesus is still God today. When he was man, was he limited to what man could do (through God)? Did he give up his divinity for the period of time that he lived as man?

 

[ContraMundum]

Since the Nicene Creed seems not to be part of the SoF or Rules in this forum, I have a question about it.
More specifically about what the second paragraph says about Jesus. I am not asking for doctrine, just what the creed says.

Jesus was God's son from before creation. Jesus became man, lived and died, resurrected and ascended. Jesus is still God today. When he was man, was he limited to what man could do (through God)? Did he give up his divinity for the period of time that he lived as man?

No, He didn't give up His Divinity. Just as the High Priest disrobed before He entered the sanctuary to make sacrifice, going in wearing servant's clothing, so did the Son when He came to offer sacrifice here.

While theologians through the years have explained it in different ways, the term "kenosis" is the most used I think. It is from Philippians 2:7 where it is described that Messiah "emptied Himself" and bids His followers to do likewise. Mind you, Christology is a minefield and it needs to be navigated carefully. Another useful term is the "state of humiliation" which is derived from Philippians 2:5-8

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

I tend to use the terminology of the Reformation on matters like this, as they were very careful about their words and quite precise in outlaying the ancient Christological position. However, they are probably not perfect either- just useful in approaching the mystery of it all.

 

[Open Heart]

ContraMundum beat me to it.

By saying Christ emptied himself, it means that although he was still God, by incarnating as a man he limited some of his divine capabilities. For example, God is everywhere, whereas Jesus was limited to being in one place at a time.

Contra isn't kidding about explaining the Creed being tricky as all hell. It's so easy to go off into one heresy or another. It took an entire ecumenical gathering of all the bishops under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit just to come up with the wording of the Creed. I try to stick with that wording, where I'm nice and safe.

 

[Dave-W]

Jesus was God's son from before creation. Jesus became man, lived and died, resurrected and ascended. Jesus is still God today. When he was man, was he limited to what man could do (through God)? Did he give up his divinity for the period of time that he lived as man?

Paul tells us:

Philippians 2:7 Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance,

He divested himself of all his heavenly power (but still retained his divinity) to be an example to us of how to overcome sin and walk in miracles. He did it all by the power of the Holy Spirit. (just as we can)

 

[Dave-W]

What many messianics find troublesome is the wording describing the trinity. While God being "echad" or a composite unity is within the pale of much of first century Judaism; the wording given in the creed leans heavily toward tri-theism or 3 seperate gods. (at least it looks that way to religious Jews) Dan Juster says it looks like it was engineered specifically to keep Jews out.

 

[Open Heart]

I was talking to Stuart Dauermann one day about the Nicene Creed and he was of the opinion that while it was necessary for the Church, that Messianic Judaism was pre-Nicean in origin and not bound by the Creed. He felt that the whole Greek philosophical approach to understanding the divinity of Christ was foreign to Jews. He could imagine a day when the Rabbinical Council, while affirming the divinity of Christ, worked out its own wording as to the relationship of the Son to the Father along the lines of Jewish thinking. That is not to say he is anti-trinitarian.

 

[pat34lee]

No, He didn't give up His Divinity. Just as the High Priest disrobed before He entered the sanctuary to make sacrifice, going in wearing servant's clothing, so did the Son when He came to offer sacrifice here.

I am looking for proof from the creed or scriptures. I know what modern theology teaches.

 

[Lulav]

What many messianics find troublesome is the wording describing the trinity. While God being "echad" or a composite unity is within the pale of much of first century Judaism; the wording given in the creed leans heavily toward tri-theism or 3 seperate gods. (at least it looks that way to religious Jews) Dan Juster says it looks like it was engineered specifically to keep Jews out.

Well that would make sense, I think I read somewhere that none of the Jewish bishops were invited to attend?

 

[pat34lee]

Paul tells us:

Philippians 2:7 Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance,

He divested himself of all his heavenly power (but still retained his divinity) to be an example to us of how to overcome sin and walk in miracles. He did it all by the power of the Holy Spirit. (just as we can)

What is the difference, and how do you prove it?

 

[Open Heart]

I am looking for proof from the creed or scriptures. I know what modern theology teaches.

The creed assumes the truths articulated by earlier ecumenical councils. The council of Chalcedon worked out the wording the Jesus was "Fully God and Fully Man." You can google online to read the arguments and scriptures used to reach this consensus.

 

[pat34lee]

The creed assumes the truths articulated by earlier ecumenical councils. The council of Chalcedon worked out the wording the Jesus was "Fully God and Fully Man." You can google online to read the arguments and scriptures used to reach this consensus.

EDIT*
The council was 125 years after the Nicene creed. Too far into the RCC era.

 

[Open Heart]

EDIT*
The council was 125 years after the Nicene creed. Too far into the RCC era.

What are you talking about?

 

[pat34lee]

What are you talking about?

The Council of Chalcedon (/kælˈsiːdən/ or /ˈkælsɨdɒn/)[1] was a church council held from October 8 to November 1, AD 451, at Chalcedon (a city of Bithynia in Asia Minor), on the Asian side of the Bosporus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Chalcedon

It is called Nicene /ˈnaɪsiːn/ because it was originally adopted in the city of Nicaea (present day Iznik, Turkey) by the First Council of Nicaea in 325.[1] In 381, it was amended at the First Council of Constantinople, and the amended form is referred to as the Nicene or the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed

The Council of Chalcedon was 125 years after the original Nicene Council, and 70 years after the creed was amended.

 

[Open Heart]

The Council of Chalcedon was 125 years after the original Nicene Council, and 70 years after the creed was amended.

My bad. My totally bad.

 

[pat34lee]

My bad. My totally bad.

No problem. It happens to me every time I rely on my memory for names and dates and such.

 

[pinacled]

copied from: http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/nicene.htm

Traditional Wording

I believe in one God,
the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only begotten Son of God,
begotten of his Father before all worlds,
God of God, Light of Light,
very God of very God,
begotten, not made,
being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;
who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven,
and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost
of the Virgin Mary,
and was made man;
and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried;
and the third day he rose again
according to the Scriptures,
and ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
and he shall come again, with glory,
to judge both the quick and the dead;
whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Life,
who proceedeth from the Father [and the Son];
who with the Father and the Son together
is worshipped and glorified;
who spake by the Prophets.
And I believe one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church;
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;
and I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. AMEN.

Modern Wording

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son].
With the Father and the Son
he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. AMEN.

When I first heard of and read this creed I found it uplifting.

But I dont remember this part being in it when I first read it.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

Considering the Church is the Body of Christ.
Matthew 7
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

 

[pat34lee]

When I first heard of and read this creed I found it uplifting.

But I dont remember this part being in it when I first read it.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

Considering the Church is the Body of Christ.
Matthew 7
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Some may try to tell you that the church mentioned above is the Roman Catholic Church, but in the creed, catholic just means universal.

 

[BelieveTheWord]

I was talking to Stuart Dauermann one day about the Nicene Creed and he was of the opinion that while it was necessary for the Church, that Messianic Judaism was pre-Nicean in origin and not bound by the Creed. He felt that the whole Greek philosophical approach to understanding the divinity of Christ was foreign to Jews. He could imagine a day when the Rabbinical Council, while affirming the divinity of Christ, worked out its own wording as to the relationship of the Son to the Father along the lines of Jewish thinking. That is not to say he is anti-trinitarian.

All that would depend on "divinity" meaning Elohim, or something more.

I believe Yeshua was Elohim, but not the Father. John 14:28