The Need for Women to See the Feminine in the Divine

[mark46]

Do you have at hand any specific passages (quotes) from the Talmud about this Yeshu?

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13537-shekinah

 

[LoAmmi]

Do you have at hand any specific passages (quotes) from the Talmud about this Yeshu?

I don't have any off hand. They are not something that factor heavily into my faith. They are more cautionary tales about following those who teach things about HaShem that were not taught to our ancestors by the Prophets.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I don't have any off hand. They are not something that factor heavily into my faith. They are more cautionary tales about following those who teach things about HaShem that were not taught to our ancestors by the Prophets.

Such as?

Would it be the sorts of things that saint Paul taught - following Jesus as he did - things like obedience to the Law and observance of circumcision and such things leads to a departure from the faith that Jesus the Messiah taught and to loss of grace from God because seeking to establish one's own righteousness by doing the works outlined in the law can only lead to failure which leads to condemnation?

 

[LoAmmi]

Such as?

Would it be the sorts of things that saint Paul taught - following Jesus as he did - things like obedience to the Law and observance of circumcision and such things leads to a departure from the faith that Jesus the Messiah taught and to loss of grace from God because seeking to establish one's own righteousness by doing the works outlined in the law can only lead to failure which leads to condemnation?

Well, obviously any teaching that says we don't have to keep Torah anymore is rejected. The Torah itself speaks of it being something we follow throughout every generation.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Well, obviously any teaching that says we don't have to keep Torah anymore is rejected. The Torah itself speaks of it being something we follow throughout every generation.

I see, does that make saint Paul's teaching something that modern Jews must reject because his teaching advises that law keeping is essentially contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ and will inevitably lead to condemnation because it seeks to establish the law-keeper as righteous before God by means of his obedience?

 

[mark46]

We were all warned about this "sort" of teaching.

It can lead someone to embrace the feminine cults of biblical times, especially the Greek cult surrounding Sophia. It is often linked to Hebrew teachings.

Another path that is warned against is that of the Kabbalists. This set of teachings is another movement that adds to the meaning of torah.

As is pointed out, obviously when the link is made to Christianity, then we move away from being tied to the commands of torah. Obviously, as a Christian, I have the understanding that all of Scripture is contained in the two commands, to love God and our neighbor.

Of course, one of the reasons for the Talmud itself was to prevent some of thee diversions. At least that is my personal opinion.

 

[LoAmmi]

I see, does that make saint Paul's teaching something that modern Jews must reject because his teaching advises that law keeping is essentially contrary to the gospel of Jesus Christ and will inevitably lead to condemnation because it seeks to establish the law-keeper as righteous before God by means of his obedience?

There's a lot that goes into why Jews don't follow Jesus or Paul or Christianity. Christianity gets a lot more hung up on the idea of righteousness or justification than Judaism does. One isn't supposed to keep the Torah to reap some reward, we're supposed to keep it because that's the agreement we made. You will find that the Torah only speaks of the community as a whole being blessed for keeping Torah. There is no promise of anything to the individual keeping it.

 

[MoreCoffee]

We were all warned about this "sort" of teaching.

It can lead someone to embrace the feminine cults of biblical times, especially the Greek cult surrounding Sophia. It is often linked to Hebrew teachings.

Another path that is warned against is that of the Kabbalists. This set of teachings is another movement that adds to the meaning of torah.

As is pointed out, obviously when the link is made to Christianity, then we move away from being tied to the commands of torah. Obviously, as a Christian, I have the understanding that all of Scripture is contained in the two commands, to love God and our neighbor.

Of course, one of the reasons for the Talmud itself was to prevent some of thee diversions. At least that is my personal opinion.

Yes, when a link between Talmud and Christianity is made then the ground under the feet of those making the link is unstable. The Talmud is (in written form) very likely a post christian development within Rabbinic Judaism and as such is unlikely to be representative of the Jewish teaching in Jesus the Messiah's time. The possible mention of Jesus in the Talmud (in unfavourable terms as a teacher of things that a faithful Rabbinic Jew ought to reject) is evidence that the ideas in the Talmud are, at least in part, post christian in origin. But I am told that the Talmud is supposed to hark back to the seventy elders who waited on the skirts of mount Sinai while Moses ascended to receive the Law. That perspective on its origin raises interesting questions about Talmudic teaching and Christian teaching and the roots of both. Obviously christians will be inclined to regard the teaching of Christ as normative and as the last word on what is ultimately true and since Jesus did not mention Shekinah and since the word is not in the Tanakh it appears that argument from Shekinah to an alleged feminine aspect in God is not a christian argument but more a borrowed concept from Rabbinic Judaism that's been imported into some forms of Christianity in recent times. That, in my opinion, makes it of very little value and possibly makes it something that is best viewed as error if not as heresy.

 

[mark46]

There's a lot that goes into why Jews don't follow Jesus or Paul or Christianity. Christianity gets a lot more hung up on the idea of righteousness or justification than Judaism does. One isn't supposed to keep the Torah to reap some reward, we're supposed to keep it because that's the agreement we made. You will find that the Torah only speaks of the community as a whole being blessed for keeping Torah. There is no promise of anything to the individual keeping it.

Yes, indeed.

Curiously, in the Early Church, it was indeed the household or community that was saved. Most Orthodox understandably take the same view. The emphasis on individualism, IMHO, is a Protestant addition. For example, infant baptism is a somewhat strange idea in the individualistic model. Of course, the Church has always baptized infants (as have Orthodox, Anglicans and Methodists). When Scott Hahn talks about us as the family of God, and discussed the covenants between us and God, there is no mention of individual salvation.

The Roman Catholic Church made its change centuries ago when it embraced the legalistic model regarding sin and regarding the meaning of Jesus (his life, death and resurrection). The Orthodox understandings are much, much different.

 

[Open Heart]

So Shekaniah is a Talmud concept? Not part of the Tanakh?

The concept is Tanakh, the word is Talmud.

 

[LoAmmi]

The concept is Tanakh, the word is Talmud.

The idea that something dwelled within the Temple, certainly. A lot of what got attached to that is later.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The concept is Tanakh, the word is Talmud.

The idea of God's presence in the tabernacle and temple is biblical the attribution of femininity to that presence is not.

The idea that something dwelled within the Temple, certainly. A lot of what got attached to that is later.

Quite right; the feminisation of an aspect of YHWH God is not really present in the Tanakh but notions of gender equality are important in western culture and it seems that importing our culture's agenda into an ancient text has started to become a norm for some within Christianity and apparently some in Judaism too.

 

[LoAmmi]

No, it is not some modern concept. There are passages in the Bible that indicate feminine things to HaShem such as it saying HaShem birthed Israel and other things. The concept of the Shekaniah comes not from modern western culture, but from those who lived in Babylon prior to let's say 700 CE. It was obvious to the sages that if HaShem created woman, then the aspects we usually see as feminine must have also come from Him.

 

[MoreCoffee]

No, it is not some modern concept. There are passages in the Bible that indicate feminine things to HaShem such as it saying HaShem birthed Israel and other things. The concept of the Shekaniah comes not from modern western culture, but from those who lived in Babylon prior to let's say 700 CE. It was obvious to the sages that if HaShem created woman, then the aspects we usually see as feminine must have also come from Him.

You think that YHWH God being said to have given birth to the nation implies that YHWH God is feminine despite the 7,000 and more times that YHWH God is explicitly said to be "he"? That looks very like wish fulfilment rather than extracting data from what is written in holy scripture. Surely the more likely way to resolve the passages that speak of such things as YHWH God giving birth to his people is to acknowledge that human birth (and presumably birth pains) is analogous to YHWH God's bringing forth of the nation? This does not need any supposition of a feminine side to YHWH GOD.

 

[Fish and Bread]

Wisdom is personified by a woman in some passages of the Old Testament. Any text that doesn't have that is mistranslated it. It's not a recent interpretation or addition. It's always been there.

What is interesting is that Jesus is often thought to be the Word of God personified. Wisdom, which is portrayed in the feminine, is a close concept. Perhaps in those passages we are seeing a vision of a female Messiah or the feminine aspects of the Son?

 

[Fish and Bread]

You think that YHWH God being said to have given birth to the nation implies that YHWH God is feminine despite the 7,000 and more times that YHWH God is explicitly said to be "he"? That looks very like wish fulfilment rather than extracting data from what is written in holy scripture.

Does the fact that scripture was likely written by men who were products of ancient patriarchal cultures and that it didn't just drop down from heaven fully written and nicely bound in a leather cover have any baring on this subject? I find it difficult to believe that the writers of scripture were just somehow possessed by God to write exactly what God would have written- it's a somewhat disjointed book if it was actually directly written by a higher power. I can believe that the authors close to or inspired by God and that that showed through in their writing, as did the experiences of generations upon generations of religious people, but to some degree I think what is there is also human and reflects it's authors to some degree. That's why we can detect differing writing styles and such.

 

[LoAmmi]

You think that YHWH God being said to have given birth to the nation implies that YHWH God is feminine despite the 7,000 and more times that YHWH God is explicitly said to be "he"? That looks very like wish fulfilment rather than extracting data from what is written in holy scripture. Surely the more likely way to resolve the passages that speak of such things as YHWH God giving birth to his people is to acknowledge that human birth (and presumably birth pains) is analogous to YHWH God's bringing forth of the nation? This does not need any supposition of a feminine side to YHWH GOD.

So, you believe that He whipped up woman with aspects completely foreign to Himself and that woman is not, in fact, created in His image but in some different image?

 

[MoreCoffee]

So, you believe that He whipped up woman with aspects completely foreign to Himself and that woman is not, in fact, created in His image but in some different image?

No and it is very illogical for your post to reply to mine with such an obviously incorrect conclusion. YHWH God can (and did) create females of every kind of creature without needing himself to be a female just as he created males of every kind of creature without needing himself to be a male. The issue in this discussion is not what sex God is, that would be too absurd to entertain in any serious discussion about YHWH God. The issue is what role femininity has in YHWH God's self revelation and the answer to that is "not a lot". One must quote mine the holy scriptures to find any references to YHWH God that are explicitly feminine and even after quote mining the results are highly doubtful. If one is looking for something in holy scripture to affirm the goodness and the rightness of femininity then one need not go beyond the creation story. God made man in his image, in the image of God he made him: male and female he made them (Genesis 1:27). Clearly female human beings (women) are made in the image of God even if the emphasis on the image is masculine in that verse.

 

[LoAmmi]

No and it is very illogical for your post to reply to mine with such an obviously incorrect conclusion. YHWH God can (and did) create females of every kind of creature without needing himself to be a female just as he created males of every kind of creature without needing himself to be a male. The issue in this discussion is not what sex God is, that would be too absurd to entertain in any serious discussion about YHWH God. The issue is what role femininity has in YHWH God's self revelation and the answer to that is "not a lot". One must quote mine the holy scriptures to find any references to YHWH God that are explicitly feminine and even after quote mining the results are highly doubtful. If one is looking for something in holy scripture to affirm the goodness and the rightness of femininity then one need not go beyond the creation story. God made man in his image, in the image of God he made him: male and female he made them (Genesis 1:27). Clearly female human beings (women) are made in the image of God even if the emphasis on the image is masculine in that verse.

The OP is stating that women should see the feminine in the divine. To me, this means finding the feminine aspects such as nurturing. So while the text might not be all about it, there's a lot of stuff in the text where He shows what we consider traditional female qualities.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The OP is stating that women should see the feminine in the divine. To me, this means finding the feminine aspects such as nurturing. So while the text might not be all about it, there's a lot of stuff in the text where He shows what we consider traditional female qualities.

Nurture is not a feminine aspect of human nature. Males nurture. Females nurture.