The Need for Women to See the Feminine in the Divine

[Fish and Bread]

Link:

http://ncronline.org/blogs/intersection/need-women-see-feminine-divine

Thoughts?

 

[mark46]

Link:

http://ncronline.org/blogs/intersection/need-women-see-feminine-divine

Thoughts?

There is much written about the Holy Spirit being considered as feminine in much Jewish writing and in early Church, most obviously in Gnosticism and in the Syriac literature. Sophia/Wisdom is considered a feminine aspect of God. There are many feminine views of God in the OT. "Ruach", the Aramaic word for spirits in the OT is feminine. Sophia (wisdom) became part of lots of practices/cults in the first centuries.

Obviously, the early Church chose to eliminate all those, and the literature of those, who considered the divine in any way feminine.
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Some have the image of Creation, with the Creator and Holy Spirit jointly creating the Logos and the World.

 

[LoAmmi]

I would point out that any reference to holy spirit in Jewish writings is clearly not a reference to what is understood by Christianity as the Holy Spirit, so they don't equate in many ways.

 

[Open Heart]

I never ever felt "less than" as a girl or as a woman. I always felt accepted fully by God. I think this had a lot to do with my Father. I remember very well one evening after my bath as he brushed and braided my hair, and then stood me in front of the mirror with his hands around my waist and said, "You are beeeeautiful!" He always treated my mother like a lady, with love and with tons of respect. Why would my heavenly Father be any less?

The secret to Christian women feeling confident in their own shoes is good parents.

 

[Tallguy88]

I've never been keen on feminizing aspects of God. God has overwhelmingly presented himself as male, even though He does not have a physical body. And the Incarnate Logos chose to enter space/time as a male.

So to me, it would not be wrong to say God is male. It would also not be wrong to say God is gender less (except for Jesus). It does seem wrong to see God as female when He has not presented Himself as such.

 

[mark46]

I would point out that any reference to holy spirit in Jewish writings is clearly not a reference to what is understood by Christianity as the Holy Spirit, so they don't equate in many ways.

Here is a sample from the Jewish Encyclopedia.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7833-holy-spirit

Obviously, the Spirit of God of the OT is not the same understanding as the Holy Spirit in the NT. However, the tie to Joel's prophecy is clear.

Perhaps, the notion of feminine aspects of Shekinah are more questionable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shekhinah

Finally, we have the idea of Wisdom/Khokmah (sophia of the Greeks) in the OT and in other places in biblical times.

http://www.suppressedhistories.net/articles/sophia.html

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I could add many references from the Talmud, Mishnah and other Jewish writings with regard to the Holy Spirit, Wisdom, and the degree to which they have feminine aspects. Also, we might review the many feminine understandings of God; for example, as a mother bird.

 

[LoAmmi]

Here is a sample from the Jewish Encyclopedia.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/7833-holy-spirit

Obviously, the Spirit of God of the OT is not the same understanding as the Holy Spirit in the NT. However, the tie to Joel's prophecy is clear.

Perhaps, the notion of feminine aspects of Shekinah are more questionable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shekhinah

Finally, we have the idea of Wisdom/Khokmah (sophia of the Greeks) in the OT and in other places in biblical times.

http://www.suppressedhistories.net/articles/sophia.html

=======

I could add many references from the Talmud, Mishnah and other Jewish writings with regard to the Holy Spirit, Wisdom, and the degree to which they have feminine aspects. Also, we might review the many feminine understandings of God; for example, as a mother bird.

Whenever going though Jewish writings, though, you have to understand that those writers are going from the baseline of Jewish understanding. Since they are typically not writing for Gentiles, they don't bother to explain the basics of Judaism in their writings. The reader is assumed to know it already. The concept of the Holy Spirit as part of a Trinity co-equal with two other parts that make up one deity is incompatible with Judaism. It simply is. The holy spirit in Judaism is HaShem's working force in the world. It would be disrespectful to those writers to attempt to twist their words to mean something they did not intend.

Now, I will not argue about what is actually in the Tanach because you guys have your own interpretation. But I would argue that you cannot have your own interpretation of Jewish writings that are not in the Tanach.

 

[Fantine]

I pretty much see God as genderless and encompassing all the best qualities of both genders. Yes, Jesus came to earth as a man, but it certainly wasn't because God the Father had XY chromosomes.

God's choice to incarnate as a man was wise because of the history and culture into which He was born, a pragmatic decision for that period of history, but God's mission on earth could have been accomplished as a female as well, given the right time and place. I do not fault God for being pragmatic, because God encompasses the best qualities of both genders.

 

[mark46]

Whenever going though Jewish writings, though, you have to understand that those writers are going from the baseline of Jewish understanding. Since they are typically not writing for Gentiles, they don't bother to explain the basics of Judaism in their writings. The reader is assumed to know it already. The concept of the Holy Spirit as part of a Trinity co-equal with two other parts that make up one deity is incompatible with Judaism. It simply is. The holy spirit in Judaism is HaShem's working force in the world. It would be disrespectful to those writers to attempt to twist their words to mean something they did not intend.

Now, I will not argue about what is actually in the Tanach because you guys have your own interpretation. But I would argue that you cannot have your own interpretation of Jewish writings that are not in the Tanach.

I certainly did not mean to imply that Jews thought that the Spirit of God is the 3rd person of the Trinity, or even a person. I wanted to point out the importance of the Spirit (and Wisdom) within Judaism along with some of the feminine aspects attributed to both the Spirit and to Wisdom.

 

[LoAmmi]

I certainly did not mean to imply that Jews thought that the Spirit of God is the 3rd person of the Trinity, or even a person. I wanted to point out the importance of the Spirit (and Wisdom) within Judaism along with some of the feminine aspects attributed to both the Spirit and to Wisdom.

Certainly. I would agree with that. Shekaniah was viewed as feminine too and that's what was considered to dwell within the Temple.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Certainly. I would agree with that. Shekaniah was viewed as feminine too and that's what was considered to dwell within the Temple.

Does the word "Shekaniah" occur in the Hebrew scriptures (as distinct from the Talmud)?

 

[LoAmmi]

Does the word "Shekaniah" occur in the Hebrew scriptures (as distinct from the Talmud)?

Not that I'm aware of.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Not that I'm aware of.

So Shekaniah is a Talmud concept? Not part of the Tanakh?

 

[LoAmmi]

So Shekaniah is a Talmud concept? Not part of the Tanakh?

It's a concept that comes from tradition as far as I'm aware. Not just from the Talmud, which came later, but the targums and such.

 

[MoreCoffee]

It's a concept that comes from tradition as far as I'm aware. Not just from the Talmud, which came later, but the targums and such.

Then why do people (usually Christians of a fundamentalist belief type) talk about "the shekanah glory" as if it were something biblical? I don't expect you'd necessarily know but I wonder how the term found its way into English speaking christianity. It seems kind of strange to associate an alleged feminine aspect/quality in God with words that don't have any significant pedigree in christianity until rather recently.

 

[LoAmmi]

Then why do people (usually Christians of a fundamentalist belief type) talk about "the shekanah glory" as if it were something biblical? I don't expect you'd necessarily know but I wonder how the term found its way into English speaking christianity. It seems kind of strange to associate an alleged feminine aspect/quality in God with words that don't have any significant pedigree in christianity until rather recently.

I believe there are groups of Christians who raid Jewish literature as if it were something for them, take the parts that sound good to their ears, ignore everything that shows what's being talked about is not compatible with Christianity, and present it as theology.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I believe there are groups of Christians who raid Jewish literature as if it were something for them, take the parts that sound good to their ears, ignore everything that shows what's being talked about is not compatible with Christianity, and present it as theology.

You are very likely correct in that assessment. Do you know if Jesus is mentioned in the Talmud and if so in what context and in what way?

 

[LoAmmi]

You are very likely correct in that assessment. Do you know if Jesus is mentioned in the Talmud and if so in what context and in what way?

There are Christian who believe that he is as there are several stories involving men named Yeshu who led people astray. I don't believe those stories are intended to be about Jesus personally, but even if they are, one would not go into Jewish literature hoping to find love letters to Jesus.

 

[MoreCoffee]

There are Christian who believe that he is as there are several stories involving men named Yeshu who led people astray. I don't believe those stories are intended to be about Jesus personally, but even if they are, one would not go into Jewish literature hoping to find love letters to Jesus.

Do you have at hand any specific passages (quotes) from the Talmud about this Yeshu?

 

[mark46]

I certainly agree that fundamentalists (and other Christians) misuse the teaching of the rabbis regarding shekanah. The fundamentalist (and charismatic) teachings regarding the gifts of the Holy Spirit are in no way related to the Jewish teaching. They should use Christian understandings as their basis.

That being said, the Jewish Encyclopedia provides an interesting exposition. The early use of the word seemed to be by the rabbis when the torah uses the name of God. We might say G_d. We might say adoshem. Some of the rabbis said shekinah for some of the time when the name of God was used. In any case, I found the encyclopedia article interesting.
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If it weren't for the very male bias in the first centuries, especially in opposition to Gnostocism and the various cults, we might have had a much different idea of God in three persons. At first, there were many female figures. The Holy Spirit was often considered female, or with female aspects. If the strong opposition were not there in the fathers of the church, we might have God as Father, Holy Spirit as Mother, and Jesus as Son and Savior. Of course, the early Muslims thought that the Trinity included God, Mary and Jesus. We come close to this when we consider the HS as the breath of life, as the mother bird, as wisdom and in many other understandings of the future.

The Church ended this possibility soon after the condemning of the Gnostics, when Mary was considered the mother of the Church and the mother of us all.