The Necessity of Jesus' Death?

[Bible Highlighter]

It wasn't the sacrifice which gave eternal life, it was the eating of His flesh and drinking of His blood.

John 6
54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

You still need to learn what Jesus meant by 'I will have mercy and not sacrifice'.

While I am in agreement that we are to walk in the light as He is in the light for the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse us of all sin (1 John 1:7), God saying that He desires mercy and not sacrifice does not mean He did not still require animal sacrifices according to the Old Covenant Law (When the OT was in effect before Christ's death). God was saying that He preferred men to have mercy with others first instead of making sacrifices or in simply offering sacrifices alone (While not forgiving their brothers). We can see this in the New Testament.

For Jesus tells a man,
"Leave your gift before the altar, and go your way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer your gift [i.e. sacrifice].
(Matthew 5:24).

In other words, Jesus was trying to say that we are to forgive others if we desire to be forgiven (Matthew 6:14-15). But please take note that Jesus later told him to come back and to offer his gift (sacrifice) at the altar after he had reconciled with his brother.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Besides, the verses I quoted to you in Post #19 would be meaningless rubbish if Jesus's death and resurrection did not actually save a person or work in harmony with God forgiving sinners.



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"...and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins" (Hebrews 9:22 ESV).

Meaning, God cannot just forgive sins without a sacrifice.


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Do you believe God is somehow “blood thirsty” and personally needing blood to forgive?

In Lev. 5 the person could offer a bag of flour for his atonement sacrifice and he could be forgiven for an unintentional sin (a minor sin but still a sin), so where is he offering up blood to God?

The “blood” was supposed to be drained from the animal and not offered on the altar, so is the “blood” being given to God or even to help God in some way (does God need help?)?

Do you think from Jesus’ prayer in the garden He personally desired his blood to leave His veins?

Do you think God was empathetic enough to personally not desire Christ’s blood to be taken from His body and given to Him?

Hebrews 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

It sounds like from Heb. 9:14 the blood of Christ is helping us feel cleansed and thus be able to go before God?

I personally hate the fact, but also personally desire Christ’s blood to be out of His veins and flowing over me and especially over my internal heart (this is repeatedly experienced with the wine of communion) to know/feel cleansed.

If Christ had not shed His blood, how could you ever experience and know literally His blood flowed over your heart at least during communion and know you were cleansed before God?

Christ’s shed blood is not done to solve some problem God has with forgiving people, but it solves our problem with experiencing, knowing and feeling cleansed. Without the cleaning it is hard to go before God to accept His forgiveness. Everything import for worship in the OT was outwardly cleansed with animal blood, but that was not to solve a problem God had, but the problem people have with feeling cleansed and in the presence of cleansed items.

 

[bling]

Besides, the verses I quoted to you in Post #19 would be meaningless rubbish if Jesus's death and resurrection did not actually save a person or work in harmony with God forgiving sinners.



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What??? read my post above, it has to do with us and not God's ability.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What??? read my post above, it has to do with us and not God's ability.

No.

10 "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him does this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."
(Acts 4:10-11).


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[EmSw]

While I am in agreement that we are to walk in the light as He is in the light for the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse us of all sin (1 John 1:7), God saying that He desires mercy and not sacrifice does not mean He did not still require animal sacrifices according to the Old Covenant Law (When the OT was in effect before Christ's death). God was saying that He preferred men to have mercy with others first instead of making sacrifices or in simply offering sacrifices alone (While not forgiving their brothers). We can see this in the New Testament.

For Jesus tells a man,
"Leave your gift before the altar, and go your way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer your gift [i.e. sacrifice].
(Matthew 5:24).

In other words, Jesus was trying to say that we are to forgive others if we desire to be forgiven (Matthew 6:14-15). But please take note that Jesus later told him to come back and to offer his gift (sacrifice) at the altar after he had reconciled with his brother....

I realize that sacrifices and offerings were still being made during Jesus' time on earth. I doubt this was the Passover sacrifice, for it was done only once a year. Let's look at Jesus' words again.

Matthew 9:13
12 When Jesus heard that, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.
13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.

If one learns what Jesus means, it has to do with sinners called to repentance. It has nothing to do with being reconciled to your brother. Let's keep with the context of Matthew 9. It is talking about mercy for the sinner, and not sacrifice. God desires mercy for the sinner, for the sick, and not a sacrifice. In His mercy, He is calling all sinners to repent. God is not calling sinners to sacrifice. It is by repentance that sins are remitted, not a sacrifice.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I realize that sacrifices and offerings were still being made during Jesus' time on earth. I doubt this was the Passover sacrifice, for it was done only once a year. Let's look at Jesus' words again.

Matthew 9:13
12 When Jesus heard that, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.
13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.

If one learns what Jesus means, it has to do with sinners called to repentance. It has nothing to do with being reconciled to your brother. Let's keep with the context of Matthew 9. It is talking about mercy for the sinner, and not sacrifice. God desires mercy for the sinner, for the sick, and not a sacrifice. In His mercy, He is calling all sinners to repent. God is not calling sinners to sacrifice. It is by repentance that sins are remitted, not a sacrifice.

No. Read Matthew 5:24 again plainly at face value. It means what it says. Jesus is saying to reconcile with a brother before making a sacrifice at the temple. That is what it says. it does not say... "repent before making a sacrifice." Granted, I am not against the idea that the OT saint needed to repent before making a sacrifice to God, but the Matthew 9:12-13 is not the immediate context of Matthew 5:24.


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[EmSw]

No. Read Matthew 5:24 again plainly at face value. It means what it says. Jesus is saying to reconcile with a brother before making a sacrifice at the temple. That is what it says. it does not say... "repent before making a sacrifice." Granted, I am not against the idea that the OT saint needed to repent before making a sacrifice to God, but the Matthew 9:12-13 is not the immediate context of Matthew 5:24. ....

You have it backwards. You are trying to make the meaning of Matthew 9 within the context of Matthew 5.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Do you believe God is somehow “blood thirsty” and personally needing blood to forgive?

In Lev. 5 the person could offer a bag of flour for his atonement sacrifice and he could be forgiven for an unintentional sin (a minor sin but still a sin), so where is he offering up blood to God?

The “blood” was supposed to be drained from the animal and not offered on the altar, so is the “blood” being given to God or even to help God in some way (does God need help?)?

Do you think from Jesus’ prayer in the garden He personally desired his blood to leave His veins?

Do you think God was empathetic enough to personally not desire Christ’s blood to be taken from His body and given to Him?

Hebrews 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

It sounds like from Heb. 9:14 the blood of Christ is helping us feel cleansed and thus be able to go before God?

I personally hate the fact, but also personally desire Christ’s blood to be out of His veins and flowing over me and especially over my internal heart (this is repeatedly experienced with the wine of communion) to know/feel cleansed.

If Christ had not shed His blood, how could you ever experience and know literally His blood flowed over your heart at least during communion and know you were cleansed before God?

Christ’s shed blood is not done to solve some problem God has with forgiving people, but it solves our problem with experiencing, knowing and feeling cleansed. Without the cleaning it is hard to go before God to accept His forgiveness. Everything import for worship in the OT was outwardly cleansed with animal blood, but that was not to solve a problem God had, but the problem people have with feeling cleansed and in the presence of cleansed items.

"...Feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."
(Acts 20:28).

"God presented Him as an atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood,"
(Romans 3:25) (Berean Study Bible).

"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."
(Romans 5:9).

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins,"
(Ephesians 1:7).

"But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ."
(Ephesians 2:13) (Berean Study Bible).

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins"
(Colossians 1:14).

"And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven." (Colossians 1:20).

"Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." (Hebrews 9:12).

"...Under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins."
(Hebrews 9:22) (English Standard Version).

"And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood"
(Hebrews 13:12) (New International Version).

"18 Since you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain manner of life received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:"
(1 Peter 1:18-19).

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

"Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,"
(Revelation 1:5).

8 "...And four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sang a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open the seals thereof: for you were slain, and have redeemed us to God by your blood out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation;"
(Revelation 5:8-9).


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[Bible Highlighter]

You have it backwards. You are trying to make the meaning of Matthew 9 within the context of Matthew 5.

Well, I am not looking at Matthew 9 at all. I am only looking at Matthew 5:24. Matthew 9:12-13 is something you brought up and it has no direct relation with Matthew 5:24, my friend.


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[EmSw]

Well, I am not looking at Matthew 9 at all. I am only looking at Matthew 5:24. Matthew 9:12-13 is something you brought up and it has no direct relation with Matthew 5:24, my friend....

I brought up Matthew 9; you switched it to Matthew 5.

 

[bling]

No.

10 "Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him does this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."
(Acts 4:10-11).


...

When Peter boldly said before the spiritual leaders of Israel: “then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed.” What ran through the heads of those leaders and what should have run through their heads?

Look at Acts 2:36 which says the same thing but to a more receptive audience: 36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”

The reaction Acts 4: 10 should have produced if the audience had a tender heart, the same as Acts 2:37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

The torture, humiliation and murder of Christ should have resulted in the worst disciplining a person could experience and still live (a death blow to the heart).

Realize God has forgiven him of the huge crime and by man just accepting that forgiveness will automatically result in an unbelievable Love “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…”

Salvation is through Jesus, but man has to accept what Jesus did for him and because of him. It is up to man and not up to God, for God has done all He can do.

 

[bling]

"...Feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."
(Acts 20:28).

"God presented Him as an atoning sacrifice through faith in His blood,"
(Romans 3:25) (Berean Study Bible).

"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."
(Romans 5:9).

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins,"
(Ephesians 1:7).

"But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ."
(Ephesians 2:13) (Berean Study Bible).

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins"
(Colossians 1:14).

"And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven." (Colossians 1:20).

"Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." (Hebrews 9:12).

"...Under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins."
(Hebrews 9:22) (English Standard Version).

"And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood"
(Hebrews 13:12) (New International Version).

"18 Since you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain manner of life received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:"
(1 Peter 1:18-19).

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

"Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,"
(Revelation 1:5).

8 "...And four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sang a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open the seals thereof: for you were slain, and have redeemed us to God by your blood out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation;"
(Revelation 5:8-9).


...

These are all wonderful verses, but these do not address any of the eight questions I asked you so we could move on.

You really need to go back to all my questions in post 9.

this all has to do with the sacrifice of atonement since the blood/life is part of the sacrifice.

The sacrifice (body and blood) Christ Crucified described by Paul, Peter, Jesus, John and the Hebrew writer as a ransom payment, so who is being “paid”?

Christ paid Acts 20:28


Atonement (propitiation) sacrifice can be for everyone with the ransom payment being offered but the kidnapper may refuse to accept the sacrifice, so it was made in vain for that kidnapper and the child is not freed?


Would God need anything to forgive a person’s sins or is it the sinner needing something to accept that forgiveness as pure charity?



I find the ransom analogy to be an excellent fit and I am not talking about the “Ransom Theory of Atonement”


Ransom analogy ( b ut is it an analogy because scripture describes it as a literal ransom payment) having:


1. Someone other than the captive paying the ransom.

2. The payment is a huge sacrificial payment for the payer who would personally prefer not to pay.

3. Since those that come to God must come as children, it is the children of God that go to the Father.

4. The payer cannot safely get his children any other way than making the payment.

5. The kidnapper is totally undeserving.

6. The kidnap can accept or reject the payment.



Go to Luke 15: 11-32 the prodigal son story to illustrate:


Who returned to the father, was it the son that rebelliously wished his father’s death so he could get his inheritance or was it the child of the father? (not the son that left, but the child of the father that was always there within)


We can only come to our Father as children, so who is keeping the nonbeliever in the unbelieving state (the kidnapper)? (The sinner himself)


There is the one ransom, but could there be many kidnappers and many children?


Who are the kidnappers?


Looking at verses in particular:


(NIV) Ro. 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—


“God presented” this might be better expressed as “God is offering” since it will later be received, not received or rejected on the contingency of some kind of “faith”. Instead of received it might better be translated as accepted (with the option of being rejected or not accepted).

“Sacrifice of atonement” is described by Jesus, Paul, Peter, John and the Hebrew writer as the “ransom payment” or just “ransom”. So God is offering a ransom payment to be accepted by those with faith or rejected by those refusing or just not accepted by those lacking faith.


A huge part of that ransom payment that especially applies to those that are already Christians is the life giving cleansing blood of Christ. Christ and God would have personally preferred that blood remained in Christ’s veins, but I needed it given up by Christ to flow over both my outside and my heart to know, experience, “trust” and feel I am cleansed and made alive. So Christ willingly gave up His blood for me and because of me. This is an overwhelming tragedy I insisted on to believe: I was made holy, righteous and stand justified. Without knowing and feeling this blood flowing over my heart, I might question my cleansing?


“Demonstrate his righteousness” God did not become righteous, but just showed the righteousness He has always had. (God’s justice/ holiness/being right) comes with the atoning sacrifice that includes the life giving cleansing blood showing God’s righteousness/justice in a very particular way; by resolving the huge problem that existed under the Old Covenant. That huge problem in the Old Covenant was with the handling of intentional sins that where committed, repented of, and which the individual sought forgiveness from God for doing (and God forgave without justly disciplining the sinner [thus not showing His righteousness through His disciplining]). These sins could be forgiven by God, but there was no way to fairly/justly discipline (punish) the sinner and still have the sinner live in the Promised Land. God did have fair/just punishments (discipline) for these sins, but the Jews could not follow through with them, since all Jews deserved to be treated similarly (there would be no one left in the Promised Land).


“in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished” Instead of “unpunished” I would translate that Greek word to be “undisciplined”.

“because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished”, shows the contrast between before and after the cross. This is not saying: before the cross, sins are now being punished by Christ going to the cross, but that they were left unpunished. If they are being handled the “same way” as sins after the cross there would be no contrast? (And there are lots of other problems with this reasoning.) There is no “punishment” (disciplining for intentional sins) before the cross and there is “punishment” (disciplining of God’s children) with the cross.


Any good parent realizes the need for not just forgiving their rebellious disobedient child, but to also see to the child’s fair/just/loving discipline if at all possible, but under the Old Covenant there was no “fair/just/loving discipline” so God could not show His justice/righteousness except to point out in the Law what really should happen, but that is not “good” disciplining, the child can almost feel they got away with something.


By my coming to the realization of my forcing Christ to be tortured, humiliated and murdered, because of my personal sins I experience a death blow to my heart (Acts 2: 37) the worst possible experience I can have and still live (That is also the most sever disciplining I can experience and still live). Thus I know God is my loving concerned Parent (since He at great cost has seen to my disciplining). I know how significant my sins really are; I can put those sins behind me after being disciplined. Since God and Jesus shared in my disciplining “I am crucified with Christ” (a teaching moment) our relationship is even greater than before my transgressing.

What is the benefit/value for us that we would want to accept the ransom payment of Christ’s torture, humiliation and murder?

What value benefit did it have for those 3000 on the day of Pentecost?

Would those 3000 have become baptized believers on the day of Pentecost if Peter had not been able to say: Acts 2:36 “…this Jesus whom you crucified”?

So for those 3000, their crucifying Christ (ransom payment/atoning sacrifice) resulted in them becoming baptized believers on the day of Pentecost! Did it have value for them?


This will get us started if you really want to know.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There is no forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood. - Hebrews 9:22.

If you don't believe this verse, then there is nothing left to discuss.


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[EmSw]

There is no forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood. - Hebrews 9:22.

If you don't believe this verse, then there is nothing left to discuss....

Perhaps you can explain how natural things can cleanse spiritual things. How do you cover yourself with His blood? Did you choose and bring the sacrifice yourself to the altar; this is a requirement for sacrifices.

Do you drink His natural, physical blood? This is a requirement for eternal life. Or, do you think blood may have a spiritual meaning? If not, then you are going to have to find his natural blood and drink it. Plus, you are going to have to find His natural flesh and eat it.

John 6
53 Then Jesus said to them, “most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

How do you explain this? Please try using His physical flesh and blood. If you don't believe verses 53 and 54, there is nothing left to discuss.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Perhaps you can explain how natural things can cleanse spiritual things. How do you cover yourself with His blood? Did you choose and bring the sacrifice yourself to the altar; this is a requirement for sacrifices.

Do you drink His natural, physical blood? This is a requirement for eternal life. Or, do you think blood may have a spiritual meaning? If not, then you are going to have to find his natural blood and drink it. Plus, you are going to have to find His natural flesh and eat it.

John 6
53 Then Jesus said to them, “most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

How do you explain this? Please try using His physical flesh and blood. If you don't believe verses 53 and 54, there is nothing left to discuss.

First, man's sin against God is done on a spiritual level on the Earth. The physical blood pays for man's sin because the blood and spirit agree together as a witness upon here upon the Earth.

"And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."
(1 John 5:8).

Second, Jesus (Who is the spotless Lamb and who is sinless) took on our sins in the cup witin the Garden Gethsemane. He later was beaten and whipped. Isaiah says, he was wounded for our transgressions and crushed for our iniquities and by his stripes (whip marks) we are healed. Christ was then crucified and the Father laid all Judgment of sin upon Him and He died for all of mankind's sins so as to offer man the free gift of salvation. Jesus was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights; And then Christ conquered sin and death with His resurrection. Jesus then ascended to the Father (After telling Mary not to touch Him), and entered the Holy Temple up in Heaven by his blood so as to be our mediator and or Heavenly High Priest between God the Father and man (So that one day we will be brought to life in the likeness of His resurrection if we endure with Him).

Three, Jesus tells his followers in John 6 that those who eat of his flesh will have eternal life (John 6:54). Back in John chapter 4, we learn that Christ's meat was to do the will of the Father and to finish his work (John 4:34). As for drinking His blood: Well, a person drinks of his blood by believing by faith that his blood cleanses them of their past sins (Romans 3:25). This is how the Substitionary Atonement and the Blood Atonement works. For it is by Christ's death, burial, and resurrection whereby a person is initially saved and or justified (When a person receives Him by faith and or believes in Him). From there, the sacrifice will continue to be applied to a believer's life if they continue to walk with the Lord and His good ways (i.e. Sanctification). For Christ still has his physical body (He always had since birth) and it will remain that way forever so as to make intercession for the saints for all eternity (Hebrews 7:25).


Side Note:

A parallel of Jesus taking on our sin in the Garden can be seen in the story of Joseph. Judah took on Benjamin's guilt of the cup within his bag and was willing to go to prison (i.e. take punishment) in Benjamin's place for a sin that Benjamin did not do (See Genesis 44).


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[bling]

There is no forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood. - Hebrews 9:22.

If you don't believe this verse, then there is nothing left to discuss.


...

There is no question about the need for blood, but who needs the blood: “a blood thirsty God needing blood to have the ability to forgive?” or “Man needing to experience/feel/know he is cleansed (washed in the blood of Christ) in order to go before God, humbly willingly accepting God’s forgiveness [completing the forgiveness transaction])”. God is offering the free gift of pure charity (forgiveness), but man can still refuse to accept the gift.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There is no question about the need for blood, but who needs the blood: “a blood thirsty God needing blood to have the ability to forgive?” or “Man needing to experience/feel/know he is cleansed (washed in the blood of Christ) in order to go before God, humbly willingly accepting God’s forgiveness [completing the forgiveness transaction])”. God is offering the free gift of pure charity (forgiveness), but man can still refuse to accept the gift.

No. Scripture actually says we are washed of our sins in his blood. That means His blood literally cleanses us of our sin. This is how God can forgive us. God cannot forgive us without a payment of sacrifice for sin committed or God would not being taking care of justice. In other words, if a person murders someone, and they are seeking forgiveness of God, if the Lord were to just forgive this person (without a sacrifice), there is still the question of the crime going unanswered or unpunished. That is one of the reasons why Jesus died on the cross for our sins.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Eternal Security Proponents believe that Christ's sacrifice takes all our sins, past, present, and future. But this ignores God's morality and goodness and insults the grace that is given to us and turns the Grace of our God into a doctrine of immorality (Note: Some Eternal Security Proponents believe that a saint must generally live a holy life, but abiding in one or two horrible unrepentant sins will not keep them out of God's Kingdom. Other Eternal Security Proponents believe they can sin as much as they want and still enter God's Kingdom).

Some Works Salvationists believe that Christ's sacrifice does not involve any kind of Substitionary Atonement or Blood Atonement. Many in this camp believe the blood does not actually forgive you of sin and that it is YOU alone who needs to save yourself and it is not Christ. But we are saved by the work of Christ. For we are first intially saved by the work of Christ with His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension by calling upon the Lord for salvation by faith. We then continued to be saved by the work of Christ by allowing Jesus to do the good work within us. However, for some Works Salvationists, it does not involve Jesus ultimately saving you by trusting in what He has done with His death, burial, and resurrection. For they ignore the fact that Jesus's sacrifice actually gets us right with God. Some of them ignrore that we as believers can continue to stay right with Him if we confess and forsake our sins (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (Proverbs 28:13). Yes, the Sanctification is essential in a believer's life in the salvation process. But it is not the foundation of our Justification or how we get right with God in the first place. For a person can be saved right here and right now if they call upon the name of the Lord for salvation.


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[EmSw]

Eternal Security Proponents believe that Christ's sacrifice takes all our sins, past, present, and future. But this ignores God's morality and goodness and insults the grace that is given to us and turns the Grace of our God into a doctrine of immorality (Note: Some Eternal Security Proponents believe that a saint must generally live a holy life, but abiding in one or two horrible unrepentant sins will not keep them out of God's Kingdom. Other Eternal Security Proponents believe they can sin as much as they want and still enter God's Kingdom).

Some Works Salvationists believe that Christ's sacrifice does not involve any kind of Substitionary Atonement or Blood Atonement. Many in this camp believe the blood does not actually forgive you of sin and that it is YOU alone who needs to save yourself and it is not Christ. But we are saved by the work of Christ. For we are first intially saved by the work of Christ with His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension by calling upon the Lord for salvation by faith. We then continued to be saved by the work of Christ by allowing Jesus to do the good work within us. However, for some Works Salvationists, it does not involve Jesus ultimately saving you by trusting in what He has done with His death, burial, and resurrection. For they ignore the fact that Jesus's sacrifice actually gets us right with God. Some of them ignrore that we as believers can continue to stay right with Him if we confess and forsake our sins (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (Proverbs 28:13). Yes, the Sanctification is essential in a believer's life in the salvation process. But it is not the foundation of our Justification or how we get right with God in the first place. For a person can be saved right here and right now if they call upon the name of the Lord for salvation....

Jason, what you overlook, it that the atonement, and any other sacrifice was not for unbelievers. I will be glad to look at any passages you find which tells us any sacrifice was for unbelievers. The sacrifices were for the children of Israel, who were already believers. Was the Passover atonement for the Egyptians, or any other unbeliever?

The children of Israel had to sanctify themselves before partaking of the Passover sacrifice. What was the Passover sacrifice for?

Exodus 13
3 And Moses said to the people: “Remember this day in which you went out of Egypt, out of the house of bondage; for by strength of hand the Lord brought you out of this place. No leavened bread shall be eaten.
4 On this day you are going out, in the month Abib.
5 And it shall be, when the Lord brings you into the land of the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Amorites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, which He swore to your fathers to give you, a land flowing with milk and honey, that you shall keep this service in this month.
6 Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, and on the seventh day there shall be a feast to the Lord.
7 Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days. And no leavened bread shall be seen among you, nor shall leaven be seen among you in all your quarters.
8 And you shall tell your son in that day, saying, ‘This is done because of what the Lord did for me when I came up from Egypt.’
9 It shall be as a sign to you on your hand and as a memorial between your eyes, that the Lord’s law may be in your mouth; for with a strong hand the Lord has brought you out of Egypt.

It was a memorial for the children of Israel because of what the Lord DID for them, that is, TOOK them out of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. It wasn't TO take them out of Egypt, which would indicate salvation. It was a memorial to salvation, not for salvation.

Listen to what Jesus said at the Passover feast.

Luke 22:19
And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

Remembrance is a memorial. His Passover flesh was a memorial for taking us 'out of Egypt, out of the house of bondage'. How are we taken 'out of the house of bondage'?

John 8
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “if you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

We are taken 'out of the house of bondage' by knowing the truth, that is, abiding in His word. Today's Passover is a memorial to Jesus for setting us free from the 'house of bondage'. The Passover does not take anyone 'out of the house of bondage', abiding in His word does.