The Morality of Heaven and Hell (2)

[stevevw]

AFAIK In budhism there is no real creation, things (including karma, heaven and hell) just are, and we have to adapt to them.

In the Krishna religion (ISKON) people are regarded as free agents, and they in some sense choose their destiny. They partake in activities in one of the 3 gunas (modes of nature: ignorance, passion or goodness) and Krishna arranges an rebirth accordingly.

So the ignorant most off all reject their spiritual nature and try to find happiness in something other than what they are "made for" (which is devotional service to God). Thus they are granted their wish and Krishna gives them a samsaric alternative to the real mode of self realisation, such as gambling, drinking etc.

Therefore, in this context, heaven and hell are chosen freely (albeit a bit unwitingly in the case of the "ignorant") by the person who is either God conscious and therefore attuned to real self realisation, or otherwise on the flip side searches within maya (illusion) for that true happiness will never really be there.

Maya chews people up and spits them out. Compare the koranic idea of "fasad" or something like corruption, spoiling, decay. In this light religions can be seens as attempts to safeguard ones spiritual essence, and this is perhaps closely parallelled by secular ethics of doing "no harm" and promoting "well being".

This more philosophic approach, gives to me some context to the Koranic statement:

"Allah Only created Mankind and Jinns to worship Him Alone."

Which sounds a bit exterme - but viewed as a form of religious humanism it loses some of its apparent harsh edge.

In the light of other (Dharmic) faiths it is a spiritual practice alongside others. In those faiths atheists or the irreligious are sometimes be viewed as asura (demons) as opposed to (sura) demigods. This may sound a bit arbitrary and cruel, but if there really is a cosmic dymamic then it would be the fiery satan who demands "follow me to the fire" that has entranced the faithless, and his disobedience to God has its repercussions for his followerss. However for my atheist friends and family, I cant really justify in my mind that kind of final end.

This is very interesting and shows how different religions have some aspects that are similar even though they call those aspects different things and put different meanings to them. It also shows to me that all people even non religious people may have this sense of the spiritual in them and they will look for it in different ways and label it differently. Even some scientists are touching on this in the way they now are looking to the meta physical. Some evidence in physics especially quantum physics is showing something beyond our material and physical world. That this physical world cannot explain everything. I am not really up with how Buddhism sees things but I do sort of understand the karma thing and the spiritual plains of trying to obtain greater enlightenment. I think they are even more into the spiritual realm than most religions and show how important this maybe.

 

[biggles53]

This is very interesting and shows how different religions have some aspects that are similar even though they call those aspects different things and put different meanings to them. It also shows to me that all people even non religious people may have this sense of the spiritual in them and they will look for it in different ways and label it differently. Even some scientists are touching on this in the way they now are looking to the meta physical. Some evidence in physics especially quantum physics is showing something beyond our material and physical world. That this physical world cannot explain everything. I am not really up with how Buddhism sees things but I do sort of understand the karma thing and the spiritual plains of trying to obtain greater enlightenment. I think they are even more into the spiritual realm than most religions and show how important this maybe.

No, as has been repeatedly explained to you, the reason that your and my moral stances are very similar has NOTHING to do with us both having a "sense of the spiritual"...!

It has MUCH more to do with the realisation that you put your religion behind you when considering moral issues.

You wouldn't kill your child, even if ordered to by your God.
You wouldn't enslave another, even if permitted to do so.
You wouldn't slaughter defenceless women and children, even if they followed a religion that was abhorrent to you.
You wouldn't offer up your daughter to marriage with her rapist, even if he paid you the necessary fee.

You refrain from all of these behaviours, and many more, NOT because your moral position has resulted through your religion, but because you share the same values that I do, as a human being, as a man, as an Australian.

 

[Aldebaran]

No, as has been repeatedly explained to you, the reason that your and my moral stances are very similar has NOTHING to do with us both having a "sense of the spiritual"...!

It has MUCH more to do with the realisation that you put your religion behind you when considering moral issues.

You wouldn't kill your child, even if ordered to by your God.
You wouldn't enslave another, even if permitted to do so.
You wouldn't slaughter defenceless women and children, even if they followed a religion that was abhorrent to you.
You wouldn't offer up your daughter to marriage with her rapist, even if he paid you the necessary fee.

You refrain from all of these behaviours, and many more, NOT because your moral position has resulted through your religion, but because you share the same values that I do, as a human being, as a man, as an Australian.

Yet there are people in this world who actually do these things. What do you say about them? They're human too. They could even come up with justifications in their own minds for why they do them. They are still human beings, men, Australians, Americans.

 

[stevevw]

No, as has been repeatedly explained to you, the reason that your and my moral stances are very similar has NOTHING to do with us both having a "sense of the spiritual"...!

It has MUCH more to do with the realisation that you put your religion behind you when considering moral issues.

You wouldn't kill your child, even if ordered to by your God.
You wouldn't enslave another, even if permitted to do so.
You wouldn't slaughter defenceless women and children, even if they followed a religion that was abhorrent to you.
You wouldn't offer up your daughter to marriage with her rapist, even if he paid you the necessary fee.

You refrain from all of these behaviours, and many more, NOT because your moral position has resulted through your religion, but because you share the same values that I do, as a human being, as a man, as an Australian.

And where did you get your morals from. My God doesn't ask me to do anything that is immoral. In fact He is the giver of true morality. Humanity cannot account for morality because they believe its subjective. We can only have true morality by knowing God.

 

[biggles53]

And where did you get your morals from.

As has been explained to you many times, from the same place that you do!!

This is why you and I have the same, or very similar, moral code. Neither of us would ever sacrifice one of our children. Neither one of us would ever enslave someone. We wouldn't seek to kill someone because they have different religious beliefs or practices. We consider women as equals, rather than mere items of property. These are just a few examples of the morality we share and which has NOTHING to do with a religious source.

Where? From the ability that has evolved within us to feel empathy with other sentient creatures, combined with an intellect that permits us to logically determine that what is good for the community also serves the individuals within that community.

My God doesn't ask me to do anything that is immoral.

Your God, if we believe the myths, has asked many people to commit acts that we would consider immoral! You have to read the Bible with a blindfold on to think otherwise! And all the pathetic bleating you do about "Context! Context!" won't change that fact.

In fact He is the giver of true morality. Humanity cannot account for morality because they believe its subjective. We can only have true morality by knowing God.

Absolute rubbish. You and I prove the lie of that statement every day...

 

[stevevw]

As has been explained to you many times, from the same place that you do!!

This is why you and I have the same, or very similar, moral code. Neither of us would ever sacrifice one of our children. Neither one of us would ever enslave someone. We wouldn't seek to kill someone because they have different religious beliefs or practices. We consider women as equals, rather than mere items of property. These are just a few examples of the morality we share and which has NOTHING to do with a religious source.

Where? From the ability that has evolved within us to feel empathy with other sentient creatures, combined with an intellect that permits us to logically determine that what is good for the community also serves the individuals within that community.

But aren't morals subjective according to a humanistic world view.

Your God, if we believe the myths, has asked many people to commit acts that we would consider immoral! You have to read the Bible with a blindfold on to think otherwise! And all the pathetic bleating you do about "Context! Context!" won't change that fact.

I remember now we had this debate before. We can go over this again. But I disagree with you on God being a hateful God. The stories in the old testament only apply to those particular situations which were to do with Gods judgement on evil people. God didn't treat everyone like this which shows discernment and a measured approach. He forgave many who committed similar sins so it shows He wasn't saying that we should do what happened to those like the Canaanites. How Christians live is by the example of Christ which is the fulfillment of the law of the old testament. The 2 greatest commandments of the bible are as follows.

Matthew 22:36-40 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Absolute rubbish. You and I prove the lie of that statement every day...

So you dont believe in subjective morality.

 

[biggles53]

All morality is subjective Steve. It's why we no longer do many of those things that were commonplace in the Bible.

Only the "evil" we're punished Steve? Yeah, sure....all those babies slaughtered while they were at their mothers' breasts.....all those unborn ripped from the womb.....all those firstborn of Egypt.....yes, I'm sure they were soooooooo evil....

Stop trying to defend the indefensible. If you had any integrity and backbone, you'd at least concede what most apologists do.....that the actions of your god are beyond understanding....

 

[stevevw]

All morality is subjective Steve. It's why we no longer do many of those things that were commonplace in the Bible.

Only the "evil" we're punished Steve? Yeah, sure....all those babies slaughtered while they were at their mothers' breasts.....all those unborn ripped from the womb.....all those firstborn of Egypt.....yes, I'm sure they were soooooooo evil....

Stop trying to defend the indefensible. If you had any integrity and backbone, you'd at least concede what most apologists do.....that the actions of your god are beyond understanding....

I remember you from last time. Its no sense debating with you as you just call people names and ridicule them all the time. You have a reputation for it and attack the person rather than debate the issues.

 

[Euler]

I remember you from last time. Its no sense debating with you as you just call people names and ridicule them all the time. You have a reputation for it and attack the person rather than debate the issues.

That's one of your cowardly ways of avoiding an argument that you know you've lost.

 

[stevevw]

That's one of your cowardly ways of avoiding an argument that you know you've lost.

If you think so but I have debated with Biggles53 before and he offers a lot of name calling and very little evidence. That seems to be his ploy. I have caught on with this kind of tactic and find it not worth even buying into as it goes nowhere. Its not a case of winning and losing but of debating our different views. Its not a competition that going to prove or make one side better than the other. Thats what I am talking about in the first place. You make it more than it is.

I am quite happy in debating someone who has some respect for others and doesn't resort to making personal remarks about people which is not called for. I have been called many names by people like him. I thought he may have changed but is much the same.

Even you seem to be a little the same with the remarks about me being a coward now. So between the two of you I am now gutless, a liar and lacking integrity and you dont know me or have any justification for saying so. I think I have been called everything from gutless, a liar, stupid, deluded, ridiculous, as thick as a brick and many other names which are uncalled for. I dont need to go to that level when debating a topic in a good spirit and I can play the game fair and not have to play the person. If I disagree with someone there is no need to call names, we aren't playing for a prized jackpot. Its suppose to be friendly banter. Just disagree with some supporting evidence showing why and leave it at that. It doesn't have to get personal. Its like debating about which car model is better. You disagree and present your evidence. But you dont need to call people names just because they may not agree with you about which car is the best. Its got all to do with respect. A person should be able to have the right to disagree and hold their own views without any discrimination or ridicule about what religion, race, lifestyle or culture they believe in.

So I am happy to debate anyone who has enough respect to do this which is what I think anyone would want and expect. As they say do unto others as you would want them to do to you.

 

[DogmaHunter]

And where did you get your morals from.

A combination of reason, logic and knowledge of the world (to help realise the consequences of your actions). And the realisation that living in a society shared with others, the prosperity and security of that society is dependend upon how we act as individuals.

Where do you get your morals from?

My God doesn't ask me to do anything that is immoral.

How do you know this?
What lead you to that conclusion? Please walk me through the process of how that conclusion was formed...

In fact He is the giver of true morality

That's quite a circular idea you got there.
You're basically saying that X defines what is moral and that X doesn't do anything immoral....

That's rather hilarious.
First, I declare that everything I do is moral and from that followes that I don't do immoral things. Yeah, owkay...

Humanity cannot account for morality

False, see above.
Morality (= general rules of behaviour) are a necessity to live and prosper as a group. It's essential to the survival, security, well-being and prosperity of any group of individuals that share a space.

See, we logical folks can actually give reasons for why we consider certain things moral or immoral... Unlike you, who's only reason is "because god says so".

because they believe its subjective.

I don't necessarily agree with that.
Certain proposed actions for moral dilemma's might be, but not all of morality works that way.

I say that we can give objective reasons why it is immoral to steal, rape, rob and murder.

We can only have true morality by knowing God.

Help me out here....

Is "X" moral because God says so? Or does God say "X" because it is moral?

 

[DogmaHunter]

I remember you from last time. Its no sense debating with you as you just call people names and ridicule them all the time. You have a reputation for it and attack the person rather than debate the issues.

He didn't say anything in that post that attacked your person.
In fact, he made a perfectly reasonable argument.

How are babies "evil"?

It's actually funny really...
By falsely accusing him of engaging in ad hominim fallacies, you actually engage in one yourself.

The irony...

 

[Archaeopteryx]

And where did you get your morals from. My God doesn't ask me to do anything that is immoral. In fact He is the giver of true morality. Humanity cannot account for morality because they believe its subjective. We can only have true morality by knowing God.

I've asked you repeatedly how you are able to determine which religiously based moral claims are right and which are wrong, given that you apparently have no way of ascertaining which religious claims are true and which are false. I'm yet to receive an answer that satisfies the question.

 

[stevevw]

We have the laws of God written on our hearts. The Christian God through Jesus bests lines up with this and the bible tells us that Jesus is the truth. Even when Jesus was being accused of wrong He showed that he was speaking the truth. He was exposing the trickery and lies that His accusers were trying to lay on Him. He showed through His parables examples of moral truths. He showed by exposing the hypocrites like the pharisees who looked good on the outside but were corrupt within. He showed this when He told those who thought they were holier than thou when it came to sin to throw the first stone. Through all this He was showing the moral truth of how we can know what is right and what is wrong. Its not with whats on the outside and its not what man judges things by. Its whats in a persons heart that is the true state of where a person is at. So when a person tries to justify something that is wrong into a right they can be exposed and the truth will shine through no matter what.

But this world will use many different ways to substitute the truth of Jesus. Even using other religions. The best way to make something look good and seem true is to use a truthful looking cover. Man is searching for the truth and has turned to man made truths which always will allow a compromise or corruption on what is the truth of the only one true God. If you look at all the different religions we can see this. But mankind will also use many other things like cults, health kicks, money and power, drugs, alternative life styles, new age beliefs, astrology, crystals, witchcraft, nature, humanism, meditation and all the other ways that this world has come up with. People even look to the Hollywood stars as Gods and model their lives off this. Many young girls are depressed trying to live up to the expectations that all the magazine models promote as how they should be. Many role models are presented about how we should live only to let us down. A day doesn't go by when we will hear about some new craze that is promoting how we can live better and find true happiness and peace.

But this world always falls short. We are always getting into trouble and people never find what they are looking for in all these things. They will go from one to another trying to find the answers. Because we all have the laws of God in our hearts people are always looking for these truths. Thats why even natives that have never seen civilization will have some sort of God and be looking to the heavens. They know there is something outside ourselves that governs everything. That is why morals are not something that are subjective and can be changed according to what an individual thinks. They are objective truths that are from God and are eternal. We may try to rationalize that they aren't and try to justify our behavior by adding or changing these truths. But its our conscience that will tell us the truth of what is happening. That truth is through Jesus who show us this with His life and example. He is the way, the truth, the life, the light that exposes the darkness of mens hearts, the light of the world and through Him is the only way we can be made righteous to live a moral life.

Romans 5:19

For as through the one man’s disobedience athe many bwere made sinners, even so through cthe obedience of the One athe many will be made righteous.

 

[stevevw]

He didn't say anything in that post that attacked your person.
In fact, he made a perfectly reasonable argument.

How are babies "evil"?

It's actually funny really...
By falsely accusing him of engaging in ad hominim fallacies, you actually engage in one yourself.

The irony...

Well I guess you would see it that way because you will back him no matter what. I have debated this topic with Biggles a number of times and am not worried about doing it again with him or you or anyone else. But I consider someone who is coming back to offer their different view about something doesn't need to get personal and call into question my integrity as a person. This is saying that I have no ethical principles or adhere to any morals. It states I am dishonest and lack soundness of character. Having no back bone is saying I am a coward and lack any substance. I just dont think a person needs to get that personal when they are having a debate which is suppose to be within certain guidelines of decency. This has happened before and he has a habit and reputation for doing this. No one should have to put up with that in what is suppose to be a friendly debate.

You are saying I am falsely accusing him but it is there in black and white to see. The fact that you are ignoring this shows that you dont want to acknowledge what was said for some reason. So you think its OK for someone to call you gutless and dishonest without support or good reason. I can go and get the dozen or so names he has called me and others before but I wouldn't bother. You just dont need to go down that track. Thats why I dont bother as soon as I see the same old rhetoric.

 

[biggles53]

I remember you from last time. Its no sense debating with you as you just call people names and ridicule them all the time. You have a reputation for it and attack the person rather than debate the issues.

You won't debate the issues because you can't...

You either throw up a wall of rambling text that has little to do with the issue, or you you start bleating about verses being out of "context", or you whine that you are being picked on by the nasty ol' atheists...!

So, if you have an argument....put it..!

Answer DogmaHunter and I....why are babies so "evil" that they all have to be slaughtered...? Why is it that your God was so disgusted by SOME of the enemies of the Jews sacrificing their babies, that he then orders Joshua to do the job instead....!? To ALL of 'em...!?

Why is it that your God was so hellbent on destroying people, that he would even remove their 'free will' (something that you people swear that he NEVER does!) so that he could 'harden hearts' and make the enemy continue fighting and resisting?

You worship a monster and your only saving grace is that the monster, like all the others, exists only in your imagination....

 

[stevevw]

You won't debate the issues because you can't...

You either throw up a wall of rambling text that has little to do with the issue, or you you start bleating about verses being out of "context", or you whine that you are being picked on by the nasty ol' atheists...!

So, if you have an argument....put it..!

Haven't we already debated this topic. Did we go round and around in circles. You disagreeing with everything I said when I did put up explanations. Showing you how these were special situations where God had acted on His Judgements just like in Sodom and Gomorrah where babies also died. Just the same as when humans act on the horrible things that some do and we accept that as fair and just. Yet God is so much more worthy as He knows all things and can see where it would end up causing much more unjust and horrible situations. I thought we must have debated page after page on this subject and still you refused to budge from your position of only seeing an evil and hateful God. So whats the point as no matter what I say you still will see it your way and myself and many others will believe in a God of Love and kindness who will hold to account those who are evil and refuse to repent.

Answer DogmaHunter and I....why are babies so "evil" that they all have to be slaughtered...? Why is it that your God was so disgusted by SOME of the enemies of the Jews sacrificing their babies, that he then orders Joshua to do the job instead....!? To ALL of 'em...!?

The Canaanites worshiped gods who demanded them to sacrifice their children. They also had them doing all sorts of other depraved things. They were murderers, adulterers and sinned all the sis of the flesh. That OK as we can all fall into this and God will forgive us if we repent. So this shows that He doesn't destroy all and that what happened against some of the people in the old testament was an occasional thing that were decided and measured by God in that instance. Because God didn't do it in all the other times and forgave many such as the city of Nineveh as an example that it wasn't a command to do all the time by God. Because I have shown you as well that God was known as a God of love and kindness which is written all over the old testament which you ignore is another example of how you pick and choose out of context.

The babies that were killed would have been sacrificed. If they lived they would have grown to be evil and came back to destroy the Israelites and cause many to sin and do more horrible acts. God had seen this and when the Israelites happen to not kill all when God said it proved that they did do this. The survivors came back and attacked the Israelites and many others and took them captives for many years. This only proved that God was correct in His judgements and could see all the things that would happen as He is an all knowing God. The babies that were killed actually were saved as any baby who dies before they can know the truth and repent will be saved as it says in the bible. So they are actually in Heaven. You have to remember that the flesh can live for 60 or 70 years and then die. It can die a lot sooner and we think that was such a sad and horrible thing. But this physical life is a speck in the ocean of time compared to eternity. As the bible says dont fear someone that can kill the flesh but fear God where you can lose your soul for eternity.

Why is it that your God was so hellbent on destroying people, that he would even remove their 'free will' (something that you people swear that he NEVER does!) so that he could 'harden hearts' and make the enemy continue fighting and resisting?

You worship a monster and your only saving grace is that the monster, like all the others, exists only in your imagination....

As you have said before. You only see things one way. God is a God of love and it is written 100s of times over and over again. Even the ones who were punished came back and loved God and thanked them for showing the way of their sin so that they could be saved. There are 100s of examples of good people doing good things and the reason is that they follow the only true God through Jesus Christ. Christ came to fulfill the law and not to destroy it. So when it says dont kill Christ said even if you carry anger you are in danger of Killing. Even if you lust after your neighbors wife you are committing adultery in your heart. So He established the true meaning of right and wrong in our hearts. This is written on everyone's hearts and cannot be denied.

But like I said you will come back with denial and still see things one sided. You have already decided that God is evil and there is no changing your beliefs no matter what is said. So this will go around and around like it did last time. Thats when it got to the point where I said what is the use of this if you remember and we decided to stop. But it seems you want to do it all again. But I am not sure its worth it. I will stand up for my God who is a God of love. But sometimes you have to realize when you are just wasting your time on someone who has already made up their minds and wont change.

 

[biggles53]

Steve, you are simply unbelievable...I'm beginning to think you're an atheist that has planted himself amongst the theists, just to make them look bad...!

Watch this ridiculous argument.....

The babies that were killed would have been sacrificed. If they lived they would have grown to be evil and came back to destroy the Israelites and cause many to sin and do more horrible acts.

So, the babies that were slaughtered by Joshua (which was ALL of them!) would have been sacrificed, right? The Canaanites would have sacrificed ALL of their babies, as part of their so-called 'sinful ways'?

Then how in blue blazes do they have any ADULTS in their community!!?? And while you try to weave another pathetic reply to that, please explain how these kids could grow up to attack the Jews, if their parents had already sacrificed them as babies!!??

I cannot believe you would post such asinine rubbish! Do the rest of Australia a favour and stop posting!

 

[biggles53]

More garbage....

As you have said before. You only see things one way. God is a God of love and it is written 100s of times over and over again. Even the ones who were punished came back and loved God and thanked them for showing the way of their sin...

They came back?? After being slaughtered, every man, woman and child came back?? I thought resurrection was a trick performed by only a select few Steve...!??

And of course the Bible claims that your God is loving...it's a self-serving document! It wasn't written by people who wanted to present some balanced account of the god they worshipped - it was written specifically with a conclusion already firmly in mind.

And you still have yet to answer the questions. What about all that 'heart- hardening? What about the slaughter of the tribes who didn't practise child sacrifice? What about the rape? What about the slavery? What about the ripping of babies from the womb?

 

[stevevw]

More garbage....

Of course like I said everything to you is garbage. This is what you believe hate and garbage. Its always negative, complaining, always sees the bad side of things and never the good.

They came back?? After being slaughtered, every man, woman and child came back?? I thought resurrection was a trick performed by only a select few Steve...!??

No I am speaking about the other people who had been punished by God that repented. See not everyone was destroyed so God had used discernment and wise judgement. This shows it was measured and wasn't this barbaric indiscriminate destruction you try to promote. There were many cases where God didn't destroy people even though they had sinned and caused much suffering for many. Even the Israelites did the same and were punished for rejecting God. Just like the people of Nineveh who were warned and heeded Gods warning and they were spared. But then you seem to know the stories that you have picked out to show God as evil and dont know any of the ones where God saved His people and spared them. So this shows where you are coming from. A one sided and biased view which has already been decided despite the truth. You only choose to see what you want to see. But I keep getting this sense that we have gone down this road before. Its like regurgitating the same old arguments up again and again.

Jeremiah 18:7-8
If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned.

And of course the Bible claims that your God is loving...it's a self-serving document! It wasn't written by people who wanted to present some balanced account of the god they worshiped - it was written specifically with a conclusion already firmly in mind.

But wait a minute if that's the case then why has it got all those horrible things about God then like you are trying to assert. If they were putting all the verses to show Gods love then would it stand to reason that they then take out all the ones that didn't show His love and showed His hate. That's unless they are not like what you are trying to make them out to be. But either way you cant have your cake and eat it to. It would be a contradiction to say that they are putting all those verses in that say God is loving and then have others saying hes hateful. Some are even in the same book and even story. It doesn't make sense. But see this is how you want to debate God. You use one sided arguments that are hell bent on showing God as bad no matter what is said. Gos is damned if He does and damned if He doesn't according to you.

And you still have yet to answer the questions. What about all that 'heart- hardening? What about the slaughter of the tribes who didn't practice child sacrifice? What about the rape? What about the slavery? What about the ripping of babies from the womb?

Well see when I answer one you move to another and another. This is how it went last time. It seems if you dont get the total satisfaction of showing me and God up then you will try another way.

Once again this is an extension of the punishment that was put upon the Canaanites. You imply that they were poor innocent people who were just minding their own business and along came God and changed them into evil nasty people who became this vicious war mongering nation. They had already hardened their hearts to God. God gave them 400 years to repent. They had seen the miracles of God before but still didn't want to repent. Just as God judged other people like with fire and flood this time it was in war. The hardening of their hearts was more of a completion of what they were wanting to do anyway. It was more of letting things run their course than making people do anything they didn't want to do. God had foreseen what they were like and that they were never going to repent. The cause was lost and this was their destiny. It was just brought on faster so that they could be stopped from causing more evil with their ways and destroying others.

But once again this is like the other examples. Its a one off situation, it doesn't happen all the time. It was reserved for particular evil people. There are all the examples where God warned people and they repented so were saved. This is just one of the examples of how God had to Judge and punish evil to stop it spreading and causing many more to die and suffer just as what happened with the flood. And similar to when we decide to judge and punish evil doers when we act against them in war in the name of justice.