The Morality of Heaven and Hell (2)

[biggles53]

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[biggles53]

Are the "foreign slaves" you refer to the ones that were taken from invading forces that were defeated? Sometimes that would be a term of surrender by the losing end.

No....in many cases, the 'foreigners around you' were the people that the Jews were kicking off their "promised land"...

At any rate, why should that make a difference...? Is the taking of slaves a 'bad' thing or not...?

 

[stevevw]

This is a reply to Biggles53 from the The morality of Heaven and Hell 1.
Biggles53
So, is the slavery that is condoned a "bad" thing..? And I'm not talking about the "paying off of debts" that people like to focus one...I'm talking about the parts that condone the taking of foreign slaves for life.....is that not a "bad" thing...?

Stevevw.
The first point I'll make with that one is people dont differentiate that to start with and try to make out everything is bad. They try to make out that slavery was like the Negro slavery of the early Americans and take things completely out of context which shows where most are coming from to start with.

The other thing is I have gone down this road a number of times and it always ends up the same. I will make some points which will put things in context. You will either say that doesn't count or if it does you will then move onto the next example and keep adding new ones. Each time it will be out of context and using only part of the bible which helps us to understand what and why these stories and verses are there. So its a no win situation. I will tell you that there are many more verses in the same bible, in the same books and even in the very same chapters in some cases which show God as a loving and kind God. You will not quote one of them but focus on the so called negative ones you want to use to make your point that God is evil. It will be one sided and bias and you wont acknowledge a loving God which is shown by the same method you want to use for the so called evil God you want to paint. So what is the use. Anyway I thought you would have come up with something better than that like how awful God is for sending a bear to kill 40 odd little children ect.

Besides havnt we been down this road or am I thinking of someone else.

 

[biggles53]

This is a reply to Biggles53 from the The morality of Heaven and Hell 1.
Biggles53
So, is the slavery that is condoned a "bad" thing..? And I'm not talking about the "paying off of debts" that people like to focus one...I'm talking about the parts that condone the taking of foreign slaves for life.....is that not a "bad" thing...?

Stevevw.
The first point I'll make with that one is people dont differentiate that to start with and try to make out everything is bad. They try to make out that slavery was like the Negro slavery of the early Americans and take things completely out of context which shows where most are coming from to start with.

The other thing is I have gone down this road a number of times and it always ends up the same. I will make some points which will put things in context. You will either say that doesn't count or if it does you will then move onto the next example and keep adding new ones. Each time it will be out of context and using only part of the bible which helps us to understand what and why these stories and verses are there. So its a no win situation. I will tell you that there are many more verses in the same bible, in the same books and even in the very same chapters in some cases which show God as a loving and kind God. You will not quote one of them but focus on the so called negative ones you want to use to make your point that God is evil. It will be one sided and bias and you wont acknowledge a loving God which is shown by the same method you want to use for the so called evil God you want to paint. So what is the use. Anyway I thought you would have come up with something better than that like how awful God is for sending a bear to kill 40 odd little children ect.

Besides havnt we been down this road or am I thinking of someone else.

Just one straight answer would be appreciated....

Is the slavery, as condoned in the Bible, involving the lifelong ownership of foreigners a 'good thing' or not...?

 

[stevevw]

Just one straight answer would be appreciated....

Is the slavery, as condoned in the Bible, involving the lifelong ownership of foreigners a 'good thing' or not...?

What is the use. I have given you straight answers before and you either dont answer them or change to something else yourself. So you do exactly what you are accusing me of. But no matter what I say you will twist things out of context.

The slavery in those times was part and parcel of that way of life with wars as well as for people to pay their debts. When an enemy was defeated people took slaves. There were bloody battles going on between many different people. They dealt with those that survived differently as well as there was only so much capacity to take on extra people. Times were hard and rough and thats the way it was. It wasn't like it was today and there were reasons for taking them if you choose to study the context and find out.

But you see your straight answers will no doubt not allow to add any context. You will want to restrict as much as possible so that it leave little room for seeing how things were in those days.You will want to see it as we do today and make judgements on our morality that we use and thats it. No if and buts so that we can show how bad God is. You will not allow one bit of room for any of that. So God is damn either way according to you.

 

[biggles53]

What is the use. I have given you straight answers before and you either dont answer them or change to something else yourself. So you do exactly what you are accusing me of. But no matter what I say you will twist things out of context.

The slavery in those times was part and parcel of that way of life with wars as well as for people to pay their debts. When an enemy was defeated people took slaves. There were bloody battles going on between many different people. They dealt with those that survived differently as well as there was only so much capacity to take on extra people. Times were hard and rough and thats the way it was. It wasn't like it was today and there were reasons for taking them if you choose to study the context and find out.

But you see your straight answers will no doubt not allow to add any context. You will want to restrict as much as possible so that it leave little room for seeing how things were in those days.You will want to see it as we do today and make judgements on our morality that we use and thats it. No if and buts so that we can show how bad God is. You will not allow one bit of room for any of that. So God is damn either way according to you.

That's a straight answer...!!??

Steve....in your valued judgement....is the practice of owning human beings for life a good thing or not....?

Why is that so hard for you to answer...? I'm not asking you to go back and live in the Bronze Age....I'm asking what YOU think of the practice of owning humans, being able to own any children they have, being able to pass them on as property to your descendants...

Do YOU consider that to be 'good'...?

 

[Kylie]

Subsribing. I'd also like to know if you think owning people is a good or bad thing, Steve.

I'd also like to know how anyone can think that an infinite punishment or infinite reward can be justified for finite goodness or finite crimes.

 

[stevevw]

That's a straight answer...!!??

Steve....in your valued judgement....is the practice of owning human beings for life a good thing or not....?

Why is that so hard for you to answer...? I'm not asking you to go back and live in the Bronze Age....I'm asking what YOU think of the practice of owning humans, being able to own any children they have, being able to pass them on as property to your descendants...

Do YOU consider that to be 'good'...?

Well see thats the problem I'm trying to explain. If your asking today then no it would not be fair if you just took someone as a slave for no reason. But thats today and we are not talking about today's moral objectivity are we. We cab sit here today and say that but back then it may have been more accepted and not seen as bad like we see today. They use to send kids out to work in the early 1900s. Thats because the population had many more kids per ratio to adults and families needed to send kids to work so they could eat. Its all relative to the times and circumstances. The type of slavery which I think you are implying like with the Negros, is that right. But back then people accepted being slaves and it wasn't like with the Negros. They were used as a commodity because there was no money. They were taken over because a new set of people took over the land. But there were rules for treating them good and consequences for treating them bad.

What about what can happen with having a person in the situation of being caught from a war like what do they do now. They will put them in prison for example. Look what has happened to the people caught in the war on terror. Or look at what has happen with even the refugees on Manis Island. But remember back then having slaves was more common. They were not treated badly and were integrated into their societies.

But heres one for you. What do you think of these bible verses in the same old testament about the same God.

Our God, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God, You are a gracious and compassionate God who keeps loving kindness and in Your great compassion does not forsake. (Nehemiah 9:31-32)

The Lord is gracious and merciful; Patient and great in loving kindness. The Lord is good to all, and His mercies are over all His works. (Psalm 145:8-9)

All the paths of the Lord are loving kindness and truth (Psalm 25:10)[/quote]

 

[biggles53]

Well see thats the problem I'm trying to explain. If your asking today then no it would not be fair if you just took someone as a slave for no reason. But thats today and we are not talking about today's moral objectivity are we.

Yes we are......that's exactly what I'm asking about...

Ok.....how did you determine that taking slaves was bad...?

 

[stevevw]

Yes we are......that's exactly what I'm asking about...

Ok.....how did you determine that taking slaves was bad...?

But arent we looking back at what happened a long time ago. For all we know something that we think is OK now like say sending kids to school all day maybe look upon a cruel in the future. Look at smacking. We use to think it was fine 20 years ago. Now its classed as abuse. But the people doing it then didn't think it was abuse they though they were doing the right thing. In fact they thought it was good for the child.

But even back then slavery was not an ideal situation but it was the practice of religious and non religious societies. God did not promote it but dealt with what was happening at the time. He made some rules so that there were limits and protections. But He couldn't change a practice that had been developed by man right away, that came later.

Since God regulated slavery in the Old Testament, does this automatically mean that He approves of slavery? Just as some today answer "yes," the Pharisees in Matthew 19 also wrongly assume that regulation equals approval when they ask Jesus this question:

"Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?" And [Jesus] answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'?...What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
They said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to give her a certificate of divorce and send her away?" He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way."
​

http://www.str.org/articles/did-god-condone-slavery#.U_yFbKOwIlE

 

[biggles53]

But arent we looking back at what happened a long time ago. For all we know something that we think is OK now like say sending kids to school all day maybe look upon a cruel in the future. Look at smacking. We use to think it was fine 20 years ago. Now its classed as abuse. But the people doing it then didn't think it was abuse they though they were doing the right thing. In fact they thought it was good for the child.

I'm asking how you determine that right now, August 2014, that taking slaves is a bad thing....

How did you determine that to be wrong...?

 

[stevevw]

I'm asking how you determine that right now, August 2014, that taking slaves is a bad thing....

How did you determine that to be wrong...?

Today we think any form of slavery as wrong. But there are circumstances today where we can have a kind of slave situation and we think that its OK. Even though we dont name it slavery it is still owning a person in a way. Like prostitution.

 

[biggles53]

If you mean a slave like the Negros were treated then it was wrong. But there are circumstances today where we can have a kind of slave situation and we think that its OK. Even though we dont name it slavery it is still owning a person in a way.

Steve...please..! A straight answer...!

How did you determine that slavery is wrong....?

 

[biggles53]

And would you please stop going back and editing your posts AFTER someone has already replied to them.....post a new reply if you want to add or make changes....

 

[stevevw]

And would you please stop going back and editing your posts AFTER someone has already replied to them.....post a new reply if you want to add or make changes....

Why that is what the edit button is for. Sometimes I forget to say something or the grammar is not very good. What is the problem. If I did that then I would have several similar answers for the same question.

 

[biggles53]

Why that is what the edit button is for.

NOT after someone has replied....it's unethical. The person has replied to what you said. When you go back and change it, you give the impression that you were really saying something else.....don't do it.....

But let's move on....

HOW do YOU determine that slavery is wrong...?

 

[stevevw]

Steve...please..! A straight answer...!

How did you determine that slavery is wrong....?

I determined slavery as wrong from my conscience.

 

[biggles53]

I determined slavery as wrong from my conscience.

Excellent...! So do I...

Now, because your and my consciences determine that slavery is wrong and that we couldn't condone it, now in 2014, we have arrived at a moral code that is at odds with the one presented in the Bible which DOES condone the taking of slaves...

As you point out, there was a different moral code in those days....slavery was considered as normal and acceptable back then.....

So...here's the key question then....

Why would you look to a book with an outdated set of morals, in order to develop YOUR moral code...?

 

[stevevw]

Excellent...! So do I...

Now, because your and my consciences determine that slavery is wrong and that we couldn't condone it, now in 2014, we have arrived at a moral code that is at odds with the one presented in the Bible which DOES condone the taking of slaves...

As you point out, there was a different moral code in those days....slavery was considered as normal and acceptable back then.....

So...here's the key question then....

Why would you look to a book with an outdated set of morals, in order to develop YOUR moral code...?

Because God didnt condone slavery and that is not the moral code that was what God wanted. These are stories about what life was like and how humans behaved as well. About how God worked with people in that context. But nowhere in the bible does God condone slavery.

 

[stevevw]

The other thing about slavery in the old testament is God did get rid of it and Jesus came and was a fulfillment of the laws. One of the greatest commandments and one in which I use as my moral code for how I treat others comes from Jesus the Son of God. Do unto others as you would want them to do to you. So the moral code of God is very up to date and one of the greatest ways to live life.