The lie of eternal security refuted once and for all.

[Jack Terrence]

Such wording easily precludes any notion that Paul was thinking of any unbelievers when he wrote this passage.

You read the scriptures superficially. Paul spoke to all the churches upon THEIR own presumption that they all were believers. Paul NEVER presumed that everyone in the churches was a true believer. How would Paul know that every person in the churches was a true believer? He could address them only upon THEIR profession. He told the Corinthians to "examine themselves whether they be in the faith." He even admitted that he and Apollos could have built upon a wrong foundation producing "wood, hay and stubble" (false believers, 1 Corinthians 3). He called the Corinthians to "receive not the grace of the Lord in vain" because "now is the acceptable time of salvation" (2 Corinthians 6:1-2).

Peter also called some his audience to believe on Jesus Christ telling them to "come to him as a living stone." Then he said, "To you who believe he is precious; but to those [of you] who are disobedient, the stone which the builders rejected has become a chief cornerstone" (1 Peter 2:1-7).

The author to the Hebrews also said, "If you are without chastening...you are not sons" (Hebrews 12:7-8). This proves that the warnings would apply only to some.

And he clearly SAYS that the Lord will PUNISH those who commit "such sins" as he lists here in this passage. in fact, he was WARNING the believers of the Lord's PUNISHMENT.

This is totally outrageous for the Lord cannot punish those in Christ. God looks upon them and sees them as BLAMELESS in Christ.

Your reasoning is circular. You assume that every person in the churches was a believer and then apply the warnings to every person. But Paul himself admitted that he and Apollos could have built upon a wrong foundation producing false believers (wood, hay stubble). He exhorted some in the church of Corinth "to receive not the grace of our Lord in vain" because "now is the acceptable time of salvation." You have been effectively conditioned by your teachers to ignore certain portions of the word of God.

Show us that you are capable of reading the scriptures without bringing your presuppositions into them.

 

[Jack Terrence]

delete duplicate

 

[EmSw]

That's where they come from. And why should I reject the Lord's very words Himself: "“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done." Rev 22:12 That's sure clear to me.

Oh, but I do believe the Bible. Why don't you believe Jesus' words in Rev 22:12?

Sure sounds like Romans 2 to me.

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Eternal life is a reward rendered for those who do good, or as Jesus says, 'what he has done'.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You read the scriptures superficially.

Your opinion has not been backed up with any substantive evidence.

Paul spoke to all the churches upon THEIR own presumption that they all were believers. Paul NEVER presumed that everyone in the churches was a true believer. How would Paul know that every person in the churches was a true believer? He could address them only upon THEIR profession. He told the Corinthians to "examine themselves whether they be in the faith."

Paul directly addresses the various congregations as saved people. But make up your own mind. Or opinion.

btw, 2 Cor 13:5 isn't about some checklist to determine if you are saved, but whether you are living the Christian faith. Or being Christ-like.

He even admitted that he and Apollos could have built upon a wrong foundation producing "wood, hay and stubble" (false believers, 1 Corinthians 3).

I disagree. The silver, gold and gems are contrasted with wood, hay and straw are references to building materials. Since Paul called the audience "God's building", the building materials cannot be the people themselves, but the "materials" that result in the people. Which leads to the kind of works the people, or building, produces; lasting works vs temporary non-lasting works.

Remember; it's the works that will be tested. Not the people. People will last forever, believer AND unbeliever. The passage is about the work.

He called the Corinthians to "receive not the grace of the Lord in vain" because "now is the acceptable time of salvation" (2 Corinthians 6:1-2).

Do you really understand what "in vain" means?

Peter also called some his audience to believe on Jesus Christ telling them to "come to him as a living stone." Then he said, "To you who believe he is precious; but to those [of you] who are disobedient, the stone which the builders rejected has become a chief cornerstone" (1 Peter 2:1-7).

Slick. Just add words when convenient. The "you" are believers he was addressing and the "those" are unbelievers.

The author to the Hebrews also said, "If you are without chastening...you are not sons" (Hebrews 12:7-8). This proves that the warnings would apply only to some.

The entire book of Hebrews, addressed to believing Jews, includes warnings to believers. Don't kid yourself.

This is totally outrageous for the Lord cannot punish those in Christ. God looks upon them and sees them as BLAMELESS in Christ.

How naive! Please read Heb 12:5-11. In v.5 the Lord's discipline is described as a "scourge". That word was understood during that time frame as being skinned alive with a whip, which the Roman soldiers were expert at. The writer was making a point: God's discipline can be extremely severe. So again, don't kid yourself. Then, in v.7, 8 and 11 we find the words "discipline". Yet, he described it as a scouring in v.5.

Your reasoning is circular. You assume that every person in the churches was a believer and then apply the warnings to every person.

You need to demonstrate how that is circular. Of course the warnings are TO the addressees. Why would a writer warn anyone who isn't reading the letter? That isn't circular; that is absurd.

But Paul himself admitted that he and Apollos could have built upon a wrong foundation producing false believers (wood, hay stubble). He exhorted some in the church of Corinth "to receive not the grace of our Lord in vain" because "now is the acceptable time of salvation." You have been effectively conditioned by your teachers to ignore certain portions of the word of God.

That is merely your assumption of what you think Paul was saying. I strongly disagree and have explained what he really meant.

Show us that you are capable of reading the scriptures without bringing your presuppositions into them.

I've already done that. How about yourself?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"That's where they come from. And why should I reject the Lord's very words Himself: "“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done." Rev 22:12 That's sure clear to me.

Oh, but I do believe the Bible. Why don't you believe Jesus' words in Rev 22:12?"

Sure sounds like Romans 2 to me.

Sure sounds like a total dodge to me. I asked why you don't believe Jesus' words in Rev 22:12, and this is your answer???!!

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Eternal life is a reward rendered for those who do good, or as Jesus says, 'what he has done'.

Nonsense. If eternal life is a reward, then it is earned and deserved. Which is the EXACT OPPOSITE of grace.

Your opinions trample on the grace of God.

But, let's look at the whole context for Rom 2:6,7. The key is the words continuance. His whole point is that one MUST continue in doing good. Yet, Jesus told the rich young ruler there is NO ONE GOOD, except God alone. So, we KNOW that Rom 2:6,7 CANNOT be accomplished by ANY human being. NO ONE can continue in doing good.

Then, in 2:13 Paul wrote this: "for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified."

Kinda sounds like a repeat of 2:6,7. However, THEN Paul wrote this: "because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin." in 3:20. This statement REFUTES any notion that anyone can "continue in doing good" or will be justified by being a doer of the Law.

Then, in 3:9 and 3:23 Paul directly states that all are sinners. Therefore, no one can fulfill 2:6,7. Which is WHY Jesus died for everyone.

 

[Thursday]

Thursday, I totally agree with you, but we better make sure it is faith, and not works we are doing.

Works is doing what we think is right to get to Heaven. This is what all the religions of the world do.

Faith is doing what God tells us to do.

Jesus told the Rich Young Ruler what he must do to be saved, go, sell all that you have, and give it to the poor, and you will have treasure in Heaven, but he walked away.

He said he observed all Ten commandments, (this was works) but Jesus told him to do something else, (this was faith) but he refused faith. He refused to do what Jesus told him to do.

Only God can see our hearts, so faith is obeying from the heart, the Word of God, but the Word can't penetrate our hearts, if our hearts are hard.

What did Paul tell us?

Romans 2
6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Gal 6
A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

1 Cor 6
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:5
For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a person is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Paul directly addresses the various congregations as saved people.

Paul addressed them upon THEIR presumption of salvation. Paul didn't know their hearts. He could go only by their profession.

btw, 2 Cor 13:5 isn't about some checklist to determine if you are saved, but whether you are living the Christian faith. Or being Christ-like.

Paul CLEARLY admonished them to examine themselves whether they were in the faith. This suggests the possibility that some of them may not have been in the faith. There MUST be some evidence of salvation.

Paul asks the Corinthians to examine their own lives for evidence of salvation (Reformation Study Bible note, page 184).

I disagree. The silver, gold and gems are contrasted with wood, hay and straw are references to building materials. Since Paul called the audience "God's building", the building materials cannot be the people themselves, but the "materials" that result in the people. Which leads to the kind of works the people, or building, produces; lasting works vs temporary non-lasting works.

Come on! You are not making any sense here. If the building represents God's people corporately, then the gems represent INDIVIDUAL true believers, and the combustible things represent INDIVIDUAL false believers. Paul admitted to the possibility that Apollos and himself could build upon a wrong foundation resulting in false believers.

Remember; Paul is admonishing the Corinthians to not think more highly of Apollos and himself. He says, "Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos?"

Remember; it's the works that will be tested. Not the people. People will last forever, believer AND unbeliever. The passage is about the work.

The works ARE the people, that is, they are the true and false believers in the church. Your point about people lasting forever fails to take into account that Paul was speaking FIGURATIVELY for Pete's sake. Paul said, "These things, brethren, I have FIGURATIVELY transferred to myself and Apollos" (4:6 NKJV).

So, Paul was NOT speaking about people being destroyed. He was speaking about the end of his and Apollo's ministry should they build upon a wrong foundation. But if they built upon the sure foundation they would receive the "reward" of true believers who would carry on their ministry. It had absolutely NOTHING to do with a future judgment.

Slick. Just add words when convenient. The "you" are believers he was addressing and the "those" are unbelievers.

That is exactly what I am saying. Peter was addressing a mixed audience. He said that to those who believe Jesus is "precious." But to those who do not believe he is a stumbling stone. This thoroughly contradicts your theory that a true believer may reject Christ later on. "To you who believe he is precious." So, if Jesus is not precious to you you are NOT a true believer.

Btw, the word "precious" here means that Jesus is worth more than anything. This solidifies my point that Paul's warnings mean nothing at all if the loss of inheritance refers to things. If we cannot lose the greatest thing which is God and Christ, then to "lose" lesser things has no impact whatsoever.

The entire book of Hebrews, addressed to believing Jews, includes warnings to believers. Don't kid yourself.

Your brainwashing is thorough. The "you" is the whole audience. It CLEARLY says, "If you are without chastening...you are NOT sons." This CLEARLY means that some of them Hebrews were NOT sons.

How naive! Please read Heb 12:5-11. In v.5 the Lord's discipline is described as a "scourge". That word was understood during that time frame as being skinned alive with a whip, which the Roman soldiers were expert at. The writer was making a point: God's discipline can be extremely severe. So again, don't kid yourself. Then, in v.7, 8 and 11 we find the words "discipline". Yet, he described it as a scouring in v.5.

It doesn't matter. Discipline is NOT punishment.


In his second epistle Paul even called those who may have believed in vain to be "reconciled" to God because "now is the acceptable time of salvation." He said, "We beseech YOU to be reconciled to God." This CLEARLY shows that Paul did not presume that they all were saved.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Paul addressed them upon THEIR presumption of salvation. Paul didn't know their hearts. He could go only by their profession.

Therefore, EVERYTHING he wrote to them was for believers. If he thought unbelievers were in his audience, he would have told them something DIFFERENT. Why isn't that clear? A message to unbelievers would be different than a message to believers. And vice versa. What message to believers would be applicable to unbelievers? Nothing.

Paul CLEARLY admonished them to examine themselves whether they were in the faith. This suggests the possibility that some of them may not have been in the faith. There MUST be some evidence of salvation.

No. The command to examine oneself whether they are in the faith is a challenge to look at one's life to determine that they are living the Christian life. Not to determine whether they are saved.

Paul asks the Corinthians to examine their own lives for evidence of salvation (Reformation Study Bible note, page 184).

Come on! You are not making any sense here. If the building represents God's people corporately, then the gems represent INDIVIDUAL true believers, and the combustible things represent INDIVIDUAL false believers.

Not at all. The valuable things are what makes a believer produce works of eternal value, and the other things are things that makes a believer produce things that have no eternal value.

Paul admitted to the possibility that Apollos and himself could build upon a wrong foundation resulting in false believers.

OK, you've said this now about 3 times. Please quote the actual verse.

The works ARE the people, that is, they are the true and false believers in the church.

That makes no sense and does NOT fit the context.

Your point about people lasting forever fails to take into account that Paul was speaking FIGURATIVELY for Pete's sake. Paul said, "These things, brethren, I have FIGURATIVELY transferred to myself and Apollos" (4:6 NKJV).

Paul was referring to things of lasting value vs things that have no lasting value.

So, Paul was NOT speaking about people being destroyed. He was speaking about the end of his and Apollo's ministry should they build upon a wrong foundation. But if they built upon the sure foundation they would receive the "reward" of true believers who would carry on their ministry. It had absolutely NOTHING to do with a future judgment.

This "interpretation" is not mainstream Christianity.

That is exactly what I am saying. Peter was addressing a mixed audience. He said that to those who believe Jesus is "precious." But to those who do not believe he is a stumbling stone.

No, he was simply contrasting believers from unbelievers. There is NO suggestion that he was addressing a mixed audience.

In fact, note how Peter opens his first epistle: "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen"

He was writing to the chosen, or elect.

This thoroughly contradicts your theory that a true believer may reject Christ later on. "To you who believe he is precious."

Then the word 'apostate' has NO MEANING then. Good luck trying to defend that strange view.

So, if Jesus is not precious to you you are NOT a true believer.

Jesus Himself noted those who believe but later fall away. Why do you keep disagreeing with Jesus? Is His Word not precious to you?

Your brainwashing is thorough. The "you" is the whole audience. It CLEARLY says, "If you are without chastening...you are NOT sons." This CLEARLY means that some of them Hebrews were NOT sons.

It doesn't matter. Discipline is NOT punishment.

Truth matters. Sorry to hear about your views on the matter.

Discipline includes what the writer described as being skinned alive. That's much more than a tickle.

In his second epistle Paul even called those who may have believed in vain to be "reconciled" to God because "now is the acceptable time of salvation." He said, "We beseech YOU to be reconciled to God." This CLEARLY shows that Paul did not presume that they all were saved.

I guess you're just unaware of the various ways the word "reconciled" can mean. When believers get into sinful lifestyles, like the prodigal son did, they need to be reconciled to God.

When one takes any given word only 1 way, their theology becomes quite stunted.

 

[iron2iron]

What did Paul tell us?

Romans 2
6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Gal 6
A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

1 Cor 6
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:5
For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a person is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

I believe the problem is that so many people that claim to be in Christ aren't really in Christ. If any man be in Christ he is a new creation, old things have passed away behold all things have become new.

 

[Thursday]

I believe the problem is that so many people that claim to be in Christ aren't really in Christ. If any man be in Christ he is a new creation, old things have passed away behold all things have become new.

That has nothing to do with the verses I posted.

Do you deny that we will be judged for our actions?

Do you deny that a man reaps what he sows?

We can't be saved without the grace of God, but his grace reaches out to all men. Jesus stands at the door and knocks.

Will you let him come in and obey his teachings?

 

[iron2iron]

Paul addressed them upon THEIR presumption of salvation. Paul didn't know their hearts. He could go only by their profession.

Paul CLEARLY admonished them to examine themselves whether they were in the faith. This suggests the possibility that some of them may not have been in the faith. There MUST be some evidence of salvation.

Paul asks the Corinthians to examine their own lives for evidence of salvation (Reformation Study Bible note, page 184).

Come on! You are not making any sense here. If the building represents God's people corporately, then the gems represent INDIVIDUAL true believers, and the combustible things represent INDIVIDUAL false believers. Paul admitted to the possibility that Apollos and himself could build upon a wrong foundation resulting in false believers.

Remember; Paul is admonishing the Corinthians to not think more highly of Apollos and himself. He says, "Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos?"

The works ARE the people, that is, they are the true and false believers in the church. Your point about people lasting forever fails to take into account that Paul was speaking FIGURATIVELY for Pete's sake. Paul said, "These things, brethren, I have FIGURATIVELY transferred to myself and Apollos" (4:6 NKJV).

So, Paul was NOT speaking about people being destroyed. He was speaking about the end of his and Apollo's ministry should they build upon a wrong foundation. But if they built upon the sure foundation they would receive the "reward" of true believers who would carry on their ministry. It had absolutely NOTHING to do with a future judgment.

That is exactly what I am saying. Peter was addressing a mixed audience. He said that to those who believe Jesus is "precious." But to those who do not believe he is a stumbling stone. This thoroughly contradicts your theory that a true believer may reject Christ later on. "To you who believe he is precious." So, if Jesus is not precious to you you are NOT a true believer.

Btw, the word "precious" here means that Jesus is worth more than anything. This solidifies my point that Paul's warnings mean nothing at all if the loss of inheritance refers to things. If we cannot lose the greatest thing which is God and Christ, then to "lose" lesser things has no impact whatsoever.

Your brainwashing is thorough. The "you" is the whole audience. It CLEARLY says, "If you are without chastening...you are NOT sons." This CLEARLY means that some of them Hebrews were NOT sons.

It doesn't matter. Discipline is NOT punishment.


In his second epistle Paul even called those who may have believed in vain to be "reconciled" to God because "now is the acceptable time of salvation." He said, "We beseech YOU to be reconciled to God." This CLEARLY shows that Paul did not presume that they all were saved.

Hey Boxer, this is very good. Something else to ponder. If salvation is compared to circumcision through out the entire Bible, circumcision of the heart, how do you get uncircumcised once you've been circumcised?

Once the skin is cut away it dies and can not be reattached, the old has passed away, and all has become new. Just something to add to your thoughts. God bless Brother.

 

[iron2iron]

That has nothing to do with the verses I posted.

Do you deny that we will be judged for our actions?

Do you deny that a man reaps what he sows?

We can't be saved without the grace of God, but his grace reaches out to all men. Jesus stands at the door and knocks.

Will you let him come in and obey his teachings?

Thursday, There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. This word condemnation means the punishment following the sentence, it has to do with eternal judgment. This Greek word is Katakrima if you want to look that up.

The Bible says if you are a son you will be chastised, and if you are not chastised then you are not a son, you are illegitimate.

I'm not saying if you are chastised you are a son, I am saying if you are a son you will be chastised.

Yes, while we are here on this earth we will be judged for our actions, but if we are truly "In Christ", there will be no Katakrima (condemnation).

That's why I said it's all about if you are truly in Christ, and Jesus said few will be. Most will die and go to hell. Matt 7:13

 

[Thursday]

Thursday, There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.

How do you remain in Christ Jesus?

John 15
6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned....Now remain in my love. 10If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

 

[iron2iron]

Where has God abandoned responsibility for creating sinners who would crucify his son?
Are you suggesting He could somehow not have, give up, a control he already exercised in the act of creating?
Seems absurd.
...And suggesting instead of foreknowledge being a result of having a plan, he peeked into the future to see what would happen as an unplanned consequence of his creative act?
Seems impossibly awkward and contrived.God has not refused responsibility for his creatures good or bad, and he is not guilty of acts they commit.
You are responsible for your toddler's behaviour, but not guilty of biting whoever he might bite.
See a difference between guilt and responsibility yet?

Rick it's not about your opinion, I give you verse after verse, but you don't address the verse. I'm not arguing, I just want the truth and the Bible is the only source of Truth, not our opinions.

 

[EmSw]

I said this:
"That's where they come from. And why should I reject the Lord's very words Himself: "“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done." Rev 22:12 That's sure clear to me.

Oh, but I do believe the Bible. Why don't you believe Jesus' words in Rev 22:12?"

I do believe it. Now tell me what the REWARD is? Not two, three, nor four rewards, but one. Tell me what that ONE REWARD is.

Sure sounds like a total dodge to me. I asked why you don't believe Jesus' words in Rev 22:12, and this is your answer???!!

I do believe it.

Nonsense. If eternal life is a reward, then it is earned and deserved. Which is the EXACT OPPOSITE of grace.

I wonder why Paul would say such a thing. The problem may lie with your preconceived idea.

Your opinions trample on the grace of God.

But, let's look at the whole context for Rom 2:6,7. The key is the words continuance. His whole point is that one MUST continue in doing good. Yet, Jesus told the rich young ruler there is NO ONE GOOD, except God alone. So, we KNOW that Rom 2:6,7 CANNOT be accomplished by ANY human being. NO ONE can continue in doing good.

According to Paul, then no one will be rendered eternal life. It's pretty sad that a child of God can't continue in doing good, or doesn't want to. I do not want this kind of influence on my life.

Then, in 2:13 Paul wrote this: "for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified."

Why are you inserting justification, when we are talking about doing good?

Kinda sounds like a repeat of 2:6,7. However, THEN Paul wrote this: "because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin." in 3:20. This statement REFUTES any notion that anyone can "continue in doing good" or will be justified by being a doer of the Law.

Justification is in another thread. Maybe you should go there and explain why Paul contradicts himself.

Then, in 3:9 and 3:23 Paul directly states that all are sinners. Therefore, no one can fulfill 2:6,7. Which is WHY Jesus died for everyone.

If you have no desire to do good, then I don't think I need to be listening to you. This will pull me down to a level I don't desire.

Let me ask, do you believe you can do all things through Jesus, who gives us strength? You sound like a defeated person, who desires to do evil instead of good.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I do believe it. Now tell me what the REWARD is? Not two, three, nor four rewards, but one. Tell me what that ONE REWARD is.

The Bible doesn't speak of "one reward".

I do believe it.

Then act like you do. Your responses belie your belief.

I said this:
"If eternal life is a reward, then it is earned and deserved. Which is the EXACT OPPOSITE of grace."

I wonder why Paul would say such a thing. The problem may lie with your preconceived idea.

You wonder why Paul would say what? Paul preached the grace of God.

Phil 1:7 - For it is only right for me to feel this way about you all, because I have you in my heart, since both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers of grace with me.

Paul used the word 'grace' 76 times in all his epistles.

According to Paul, then no one will be rendered eternal life.

How wrong a conclusion. His point is sthat no one will be given eternal life on the basis of works, deeds, keeping the Law, etc.

Eternal life is a free gift of God (Rom 6:23). And God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

Paul also described justification as a gift of God in Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17. So justification is also irrevocable.

And Paul spent 2 chapters teaching that justification is by faith in Christ, not works of any kind.

Rom 3:28 - For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

It could not be stated any more clear that how Paul said it.

It's pretty sad that a child of God can't continue in doing good, or doesn't want to. I do not want this kind of influence on my life.

How wrong. It's really sad when one who claims to be a Christian thinks that one can earn eternal life by what they do, as in works, deeds, etc.

Why are you inserting justification, when we are talking about doing good?

Justification accompanies salvation. They go together. Can't have one without the other. And justification is not earned nor deserved. It's given as a gift based on faith in Christ.

Justification is in another thread. Maybe you should go there and explain why Paul contradicts himself.

Sorry you think that. He never did. And I proved that your "understanding" of Rom 2:6,7 is a total misunderstanding.

If you have no desire to do good, then I don't think I need to be listening to you. This will pull me down to a level I don't desire.

Why do you make such gross misunderstandings? I never said anything about not having a desire to do good. I agree with Paul, who said that no one is good (Rom 3;9). Why don't you believe Paul?

Let me ask, do you believe you can do all things through Jesus, who gives us strength? You sound like a defeated person, who desires to do evil instead of good.

Your failed conclusions about my views comes from your failed views of what the Bible teaches.

Of course Jesus gives us strength. But Paul also noted that we are in a struggle between our sin nature and our new nature. Rom 6 and 7 and Gal 5. I recommend that you read them and seek guidance in how to understand them.

Do you think any human being can achieve sinless perfection?

 

[Jack Terrence]

I said this:
"If eternal life is a reward, then it is earned and deserved. Which is the EXACT OPPOSITE of grace."

Actually, eternal life is both a gift and a reward. You say that as a reward it is the "exact opposite" of grace. But that is according to the way FGT defines grace.

Paul explicitly said that SOWING to the Spirit REAPS eternal life. That which is reaped is the "reward" son.

Do not be deceive; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow. If you sow to your own flesh, you will reap corruption from the flesh; but if you sow to the Spirit, you will reap eternal life from the Spirit. So let us not grow weary in doing what is right, for we will reap at harvest time, if we do not give up. So then, whenever we have an opportunity, let us work for the good of all, and especially for those of the family of faith (emphasis added).

Peter encouraged persecuted Christians to persevere saying, "this is the true grace of God" (5:12).

Okay, do your dance.

 

[EmSw]

The Bible doesn't speak of "one reward".

I'm beginning to think you read what you want to read into verses. I will give you the actual words of Jesus, and I want you to tell me what He said.

Revelation 22:12
“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done."

Do you see REWARD in that verse? I do not see REWARDS. Apparently you want it to say that.

Now tell me what that ONE REWARD is, if you can.

Then act like you do. Your responses belie your belief.

I said this:
"If eternal life is a reward, then it is earned and deserved. Which is the EXACT OPPOSITE of grace."

Do you think you can live your old life as a sinner and inherit eternal life?

How wrong a conclusion. His point is sthat no one will be given eternal life on the basis of works, deeds, keeping the Law, etc.

He said just the opposite. Eternal life will be rendered to each one according to his deeds, that is, those who continually do good.

It says nothing about eternal life being rendered according to grace or faith.

Romans 2
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

According to Paul you are rendered either eternal life or indignation and wrath, and this according to your deeds. Let the Bible what it wants to say, and do not mix in your preconceived beliefs.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Actually, eternal life is both a gift and a reward.

Please cite Scripture to support your claim.

You say that as a reward it is the "exact opposite" of grace. But that is according to the way FGT defines grace.

Grace cannot be earned. Please prove your view that grace can be earned.

Paul explicitly said that SOWING to the Spirit REAPS eternal life. That which is reaped is the "reward" son.

Sorry, "dad", you're wrong. The idea of sowing involves effort. And reaping involves being rewarded for one's efforts. Just ask any farmer.

So, to reap eternal life means to receive rewards in eternity. Just as Jesus expressed it this way: John 10:10 - “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

Jesus didn't stutter here. He was clearly referring to the gift of eternal life AND the reward that comes in eternity from earned effort.

Do not be deceive; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow. If you sow to your own flesh, you will reap corruption from the flesh; but if you sow to the Spirit, you will reap eternal life from the Spirit. So let us not grow weary in doing what is right, for we will reap at harvest time, if we do not give up. So then, whenever we have an opportunity, let us work for the good of all, and especially for those of the family of faith (emphasis added).

Yep. There it is. The verses are addressed to believers.

Peter encouraged persecuted Christians to persevere saying, "this is the true grace of God" (5:12).

Let's look at the context:

10 After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you.

11 To Him be dominion forever and ever. Amen.

12 Through Silvanus, our faithful brother (for so I regard him), I have written to you briefly, exhorting and testifying that this is the true grace of God. Stand firm in it!

So, we see that the "true grace of God" is about being perfected, confirmed, strengthened, and established by Him.

Not what you said.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'm beginning to think you read what you want to read into verses. I will give you the actual words of Jesus, and I want you to tell me what He said.

Revelation 22:12
“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done."

Do you see REWARD in that verse? I do not see REWARDS. Apparently you want it to say that.

Now tell me what that ONE REWARD is, if you can.

I've already answered your silly question. Jesus didn't specify the reward.

Do you think you can live your old life as a sinner and inherit eternal life?

How come you ignored my question to you? Please answer before I answer any of your questions:

Do you believe that a believer can achieve sinless perfection during their life on earth?

He said just the opposite. Eternal life will be rendered to each one according to his deeds, that is, those who continually do good.

Actually, his point was that one MUST continually DO GOOD in order to receive eternal life. And then he proved that no one can do that. As I already pointed out.

It says nothing about eternal life being rendered according to grace or faith.

I am happy to put an end to such ignorance about how one receives eternal life. And thanks for another opportunity to provide truth.

To receive eternal life, faith in Christ is required:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord
We know from Eph 1:13 how one is found to be "in Christ" - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit of promise

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Once again, the promise by faith is eternal life.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

These verses PROVE that eternal life is by faith in Christ.

Romans 2
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

According to Paul you are rendered either eternal life or indignation and wrath, and this according to your deeds. Let the Bible what it wants to say, and do not mix in your preconceived beliefs.

How many times would you like me to explain this to you?

Paul's whole point in 2:6,7 is that NO ONE can do it. If one could, they would receive eternal life that way, but I just gave 10 verses that teach that eternal life is based on faith.

Why do you continue to resist what the Bible clearly teaches? Very perplexing.