The lie of eternal security refuted once and for all.

[-57]

To deny that you will ever stop sinning when 1 Corinthians 10:13 says you have a way of escape when you are tempted is to make an excuse to sin in your life when you do not really have to sin. Jesus said to two people to, "Sin no more." Jesus actually meant that. 1 Peter 4:1 says they that suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. Also, there are no two groups in Matthew 7. Jesus is only talking to one group of people. This is evident in the fact that Jesus says they do not do the will of the Father or the will of God. What is God's will for us according to the BIble? Holiness or Sanctification. See 1 Thessalonians 4:3. For without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).


....

....

As I said before....all people sin. Even the saved. Does God like it when we sin? Of course not....we can consider that as a no brainer.

The question is....do YOU still sin?

 

[-57]

My point is, there's a time line in the Salvation journey. And its extensive. The scriptures have to be properly arranged into a time line. Post 519 by 57 states that regeneration and the Faith that saves are both given to us at the same time during regeneration. That means nothing else happened in between, aka the timeline of scriptures. I asked about the parable of the sower because most osas understandings cannot place that scripture in their one moment in time timeline.

I had said in a previous post...some in the sower parable were not saved.

1 Cor 15 msg translation puts it this way:

1 Friends, let me go over the Message with you one final time - this Message that I proclaimed and that you made your own; this Message on which you took your stand
2 and by which your life has been saved. (I'm assuming, now, that your belief was the real thing and not a passing fancy, that you're in this for good and holding fast.)

For some in the sower parable their belief was simply a passing fancy.

 

[-57]

Well, I am more than willing to do that, my friend. I also try not to be prideful in any way. For I am nothing. Christ is everything. I am a clay jar that is to be smashed for his glory. It is the Lord who deserves all the glory and praise.

Anyways, I am not sure how else to read John 1:12. There are two ways to be a son of God. To be a son of God means you have been born again and have become a son of His Kingdom (Meaning you are saved). For a son of God (spiritually speaking of men) means that one is within the family of God spiritually.

But there are only two options given to us in John 1:12 in being a son of God (or a spiritually born again saved person).

(a) Believe on the name of Christ.
(b) Receive Christ.​

The only way I can see receiving Christ is by the Sinner's Prayer unless you have another suggestion.
And the only way I can see in believing on the name of Christ is to do exactly that. I am not sure how one can read that to say something else.
For the alternative to not receiving Christ would be ..... believing on his name. So clearly there is some kind of way of being a son by not receiving Christ but merely believing on his name. For what do you think believing on the name of Christ means so as to be a son of God?


....

If you continue to read the scriptures...when you getto the very next verse you read "who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God".
In your post above you said..."I am not sure how one can read that to say something else.".....Well, yeah, if you stop at verse 12. But include verse 13 and things seem to change....there we read it is the will of God

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I agree with your post. Imo, if we see Christ through logical sunglasses, we will never see enough to have a relationship with Him.

I disagree very strongly. The universe is made of laws that are orderly and logical. We know this based on Basic Observational Science. This only makes sense if the Creator God is orderly and logical, too. Yes, God can break the laws of the Physical Universe, but He intended things to run in a certain kind of way that is predictable for us to measure.

God also created eternal moral laws that are also predictable. These laws are a reflection of His goodness and love (His behavior). God created us in His image so as to be like Him in how He behaves. Why? Because He wants us to have a relationship with Him and to be our friends. That relationship doesn't work if we are acting contrary to His holy nature. I believe logic (which works with the heart or one's emotions) is what makes a successful relationship with God. For if I could not depend on the goodness of God or His promises (that would be orderly and logical), then that would undermine the type of faith He desires me to have in Him for my salvation.


...

 

[FreeGrace2]

NO...you're taking the easy route. Why is one persuaded and another not?

I know the Calvinist view that one can only be persuaded by God. But that removes man's responsibility. Which Calvinism cannot adequately explain.

The Bible is clear that man is responsible and accountable. Yet, if God chooses who will believe, then man really isn't responsible.

Was there an event in their life that causes one not to be persuaded?

Not really. The Bible tells us that some Pharisees believed in Christ while many didn't. And all saw the miracles, which were done as proof of Jesus' deity.

What if that event never occurred and now they could be persuaded and accept Christ....Are you saying our salvation is dependent on what happens to us randomly in life?

Randomness is a perspective only to humans. Never to God. Because He is omniscient.

Our salvation depends totally on God. And those who believe God's promises will be saved.

We must begin at the beginning. God created mankind, and determined the times and locations for everyone so that everyone will seek Him. But that doesn't equate to everyone seeking Him. But no one will ever have the excuse of not being in the right place and time.

Further, God has revealed His divine power and attributes to everyone, so that all of humanity is without excuse. Rom 1:19,20.

From this beginning, everyone has the opportunity to recognize that God exists, created the universe and need to be thankful to Him.

Because of what God has already done, everyone is able to believe that God exists, and believe the promises that He makes to mankind.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I believe the intent was faith produces works. Works demonstrate ones faith. In other words, if you have no works, you probably don't have any faith. Your faith is dead.

That's not what James was saying. The believer who doesn't produce works cannot prove his faith. 2:18 makes that point.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"God has given everyone the ability to believe."

Do you have a line of theology to support that statement? Keep in mind I'm not saying there isn't...I've just never seen it adequately defined using scripture.

Post 565 explains it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Folks should know that this is why I am not replying to you.

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...nce-and-for-all.7920118/page-17#post-69210951
....

In that post, I challenged your view of grace. And all you could come up with was a cat yawning.

 

[FreeGrace2]

But there are only two options given to us in John 1:12 in being a son of God (or a spiritually born again saved person).

(a) Believe on the name of Christ.
(b) Receive Christ.​

The only way I can see receiving Christ is by the Sinner's Prayer unless you have another suggestion.

Where is this so-called "sinner's prayer" mentioned in John 1:12, much less anywhere else in Scripture?

Jn 1:12 is clear on how we receive Christ. By believing on Christ. That means trusting in His work alone for salvation. Unlike your view that you have to achieve sinless perfection to be saved.

That view negates ALL of the work of Christ on our behalf. If attaining sinless perfection was the way to salvation, why did Christ die for our sins?

And the only way I can see in believing on the name of Christ is to do exactly that.

Yes, not the sinner's prayer.

 

[FreeGrace2]

When is the best time for a discussion with you. I'm disabled so almost anytime is works for me. Kids are coming over today, not a good day.
jay

Anytime is good for me.

 

[-57]

I know the Calvinist view that one can only be persuaded by God. But that removes man's responsibility. Which Calvinism cannot adequately explain.

The Bible is clear that man is responsible and accountable. Yet, if God chooses who will believe, then man really isn't responsible.


Not really. The Bible tells us that some Pharisees believed in Christ while many didn't. And all saw the miracles, which were done as proof of Jesus' deity.


Randomness is a perspective only to humans. Never to God. Because He is omniscient.

Our salvation depends totally on God. And those who believe God's promises will be saved.

We must begin at the beginning. God created mankind, and determined the times and locations for everyone so that everyone will seek Him. But that doesn't equate to everyone seeking Him. But no one will ever have the excuse of not being in the right place and time.

Further, God has revealed His divine power and attributes to everyone, so that all of humanity is without excuse. Rom 1:19,20.

From this beginning, everyone has the opportunity to recognize that God exists, created the universe and need to be thankful to Him.

Because of what God has already done, everyone is able to believe that God exists, and believe the promises that He makes to mankind.

I honestly fail to see your argument....or should I say how it addressed my issue.

Why would some believe after seeing a miracle and some not believe? What makes the difference?
Did one see a phoney miracle and now assumes all are phoney....and now is lost forever because of what he saw?

 

[-57]

That's not what James was saying. The believer who doesn't produce works cannot prove his faith. 2:18 makes that point.

I think we kinda said the same thing

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In that post, I challenged your view of grace. And all you could come up with was a cat yawning.

It's not a cat yawning. It is a cat with a superimposed human expression of one being in shock.


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Where is this so-called "sinner's prayer" mentioned in John 1:12, much less anywhere else in Scripture?

Jn 1:12 is clear on how we receive Christ. By believing on Christ. That means trusting in His work alone for salvation. Unlike your view that you have to achieve sinless perfection to be saved.

That view negates ALL of the work of Christ on our behalf. If attaining sinless perfection was the way to salvation, why did Christ die for our sins?


Yes, not the sinner's prayer.

Folks should know that this is why I am not replying to you.

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...nce-and-for-all.7920118/page-17#post-69210951

...

 

[faither]

I had said in a previous post...some in the sower parable were not saved.

1 Cor 15 msg translation puts it this way:

1 Friends, let me go over the Message with you one final time - this Message that I proclaimed and that you made your own; this Message on which you took your stand
2 and by which your life has been saved. (I'm assuming, now, that your belief was the real thing and not a passing fancy, that you're in this for good and holding fast.)

For some in the sower parable their belief was simply a passing fancy.

I liked that you acknowledged a timeline of some sort.

 

[faither]

Hey Faithier, I just gave Marvin a complete definition of faith don't know if you saw it, the only teacher I have is the Holy Spirit, it took me 2 1/2 years to get through to my own pastor that faith was not trust. But when he did finally get it he told me that this one word has changed his life and he would have to go back over the past thirty years and rethink ever sermon he had ever written, understanding faith will change all of scripture to us. God Bless Brother, Iron Ready for revival, it's coming!

Amen! What I have is something I want to spend uninterrupted time to discuss. today my kids are visiting us. So I'll start a thread about Faith on Monday morning, and hope Jason, FG2, iron2iron, and others will participate. Be ready for your foundational understandings to be rocked to the core. No pride just understandings. May this be Gods will.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I honestly fail to see your argument....or should I say how it addressed my issue.

Why would some believe after seeing a miracle and some not believe? What makes the difference?
Did one see a phoney miracle and now assumes all are phoney....and now is lost forever because of what he saw?

As I pointed out, no one has an excuse for not believing that God exists, is the Creator, and should believe what He promises. How is that not relevant to your question? It directly answers your question.

All Calvinists seem to focus on is why why why do some believe and others not. Doesn't matter. The point is that no one has any excuse for not believing.

And the Calvinist view, that God chooses (elects) who will believe, removes man's responsibility from man in response to God's initiation.

If God chooses who will believe, then HOW in the world could or would God hold man accountable for not believing? Doesn't make sense.

The ONLY REASON God does hold man accountable is because man has no excuse for not believing. God has removed any reason for an excuse.

Man's accountability before God demonstrates man's freedom to choose for or against God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I think we kinda said the same thing

That's good, then.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"In that post, I challenged your view of grace. And all you could come up with was a cat yawning."

It's not a cat yawning. It is a cat with a superimposed human expression of one being in shock. ....

OK, so you're shocked to know what grace is and means? That figures.

Those with your views don't undestand grace at all. If God demands attaining sinless perfection to be saved, there's no grace in that.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Folks should know that this is why I am not replying to you.

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...nce-and-for-all.7920118/page-17#post-69210951

...

Why are you so defensive about not replying? I don't care and I suspect that no one else does either. So no need to keep defending your lack of response.