The lie of eternal security refuted once and for all.

[ToBeLoved]

I believe the reason why is stated in Romans 9:22-23
[22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
[23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
[24] Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
People bristle at the thought of not having freedom of will in the matter, and confuse faith in general with saving faith. But the scriptures are pretty clear ( Eph1:4 ) that He chose whom to have mercy on, before creation.
Saving faith is what regeneration is for.

I don't think there are to kinds of faith. Sounds like a made up concept. The Bible says faith

 

[faither]

I don't think there are to kinds of faith. Sounds like a made up concept. The Bible says faith

there is Faith( pistis) the noun, and ( pisteuo ) the verb. Absolutely "know one" knows what Pisteuo means.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hi Jason, thanks for the reply. Your the first person to answer the question. Your saying that "believing " is what takes us from unsaved to saved. Is that correct? Saying that I've done nothing, I just cant accept that as an answer. And I wasn't asking for any lost salvation scenarios in this discussion, only what we have to do to be saved.

thanks jay

I know what you mean. I came to the Lord by way of the Sinner's Prayer (i.e. by asking Jesus to forgive of my sins and to save me). It doesn't seem like their can be any other way. But that is what John 1:12 says. It says,

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name"
(John 1:12).​

This above passage says He gave them power to become sons of God to even those who believe on His name.
I mean, think. What about the man in some remote jungle somewhere whereby his language and culture is barbaric? He may not know how to call upon God to be saved, but He may understand the need for a Savior and believe the gospel message and thereby be saved as a result.


....

 

[True Science]

"and that specifically affects salvation how?"

Having true doctrine is a salvation issue.

2Jn 1:9 Everyone transgressing and not abiding in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. The one abiding in the doctrine of Christ, this one has the Father and the Son.

 

[True Science]

Not really. In the context, the Jews, who were works oriented, in that they thought that they would be saved by keeping the law, asked what were the works that God required to be saved.

Jn 6:28 - Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” NASB
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” NIV

Both translations indicate what God requires for salvation. And Jesus' answer is clear: to believe in Him.

So v.29 refers not to God's work but what God requires.

But you just showed how faith is a work. So works are required to be saved.

Just because here it only says believing not mentioning other works does not mean that negates the other works that are connected with faith. Faith and obedience are inseparable.

Joh 14:15 If you love Me, keep My commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will petition the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may remain with you to the age,
Joh 14:17 the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He abides with you and shall be in you.

It says we have to obey the commandments (plural) to receive the Holy Spirit. To believe distinguished from all other works is only one commandment. Only if we have the Holy Spirit can we be saved because without the Spirit we do not belong to God.

Rom 8:9 But you are not in flesh, but in Spirit, since the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, this one is not His.

True faith in Scripture is connected with doing what pleases God, the good works according to his standard of righteousness, Hebrews 11. They are simultaneous.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

What about the parable of the sower ? where does that fit in ? 3 out of the 4 soils produce failure.

The parable of the sower is a great proof text for Calvinism. What exactly is your point?

Did the soil do anything to be saved (as your initial question asked)? It's either good soil or not.

 

[-57]

What about the parable of the sower ? where does that fit in ? 3 out of the 4 soils produce failure.

They were never saved.

Faither, you gotta be careful with the way your theology is heading. It brushes against works based...christianity is random theology... It's not dark gray...but light gray.

John 15:15 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have to disagree with you. I hope you don't mind.

If it's your decision to believe....then you won't ever really believe.

And I disagree with that. If it is God's choice of who believes, then Paul's answer to the jailer was a lie. There is nothing that he could do to be saved. And Paul would have told him that. But he didn't. He told him the truth; believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.

Believing is what man does. And since it is non meritorious, man gets no credit whatsoever, regardless of how Calvinists try to spin it.

If God has already chosen who will believe, there is no rational explanation for evangelism. However, since the Bible commands us to evangelize, shows that man must believe from his heart (Rom 10:10).

But for the sake of the argument, lets say it is your decision....why would one make the decision?

When one is persuaded. As King Agrippa noted.

The answer is God is sovereign and has providence. You don't stumble on that decision on your own.

It's not a matter of stumbling. It's a matter of being persuaded by truth. Not everyone is interested in truth. Just as not everyone is interested in God. But many are interested, but unfortunately have been deceived by satan to follow false gods.

To answer Acts above, I still seek God. I would imagine so do you. I don't seek God for salvation but rather seek God to know Him better.
God found me and saved me. Why? I don't know. God renews your mind, quickens you...give you to Jesus. John 6:37 says: All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Just remember that John 6:44 is explained in the next verse, v.45. It's those who have listened and learned from the Father who will come to Jesus.

 

[FreeGrace2]

yes, there accually is.

I'm ready.

 

[-57]

But you just showed how faith is a work. So works are required to be saved.

Just because here it only says believing not mentioning other works does not mean that negates the other works that are connected with faith. Faith and obedience are inseparable.

Joh 14:15 If you love Me, keep My commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will petition the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may remain with you to the age,
Joh 14:17 the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He abides with you and shall be in you.

It says we have to obey the commandments (plural) to receive the Holy Spirit. To believe distinguished from all other works is only one commandment. Only if we have the Holy Spirit can we be saved because without the Spirit we do not belong to God.

Rom 8:9 But you are not in flesh, but in Spirit, since the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, this one is not His.

True faith in Scripture is connected with doing what pleases God, the good works according to his standard of righteousness, Hebrews 11. They are simultaneous.

True Science I would say becareful with this line of theology....As you posted the bible says:
Joh 14:15 If you love Me, keep My commandments.

Do you keep all of the commandments?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Isn't hope just another part of faith? Paul says that faith, love and hope are eternal. Why does it matter if i choose to hope?

Biblical "hope" is actually a 'confident expectation'. The Greek word isn't at all how we use the word today in English.

Having a confident expectation and wishing for something are 2 very different things.

I hope because i want to be humble before God. I dont proclaim anything accept Jesus is Lord. He will Judge me. I hope in him. I hope in the cross. I don't really see how this is a bad thing.

Is your hope a wish, or a confident expectation?

 

[FreeGrace2]

The parable of the sower is a great proof text for Calvinism.

I'd love to hear an explanation for why one thinks so.

Did the soil do anything to be saved (as your initial question asked)? It's either good soil or not.

The parable isn't about getting saved, but about production. And 2 of the 3 saved soils didn't produce.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I know what you mean. I came to the Lord by way of the Sinner's Prayer (i.e. by asking Jesus to forgive of my sins and to save me). It doesn't seem like their can be any other way.

Wow. Well, this is telling!!

There is no verse in the Bible that tells one to pray any kind of prayer (all prayers are by sinners, naturally), or by asking Jesus for forgiveness or to save you. The Bible many times tells us to place our full trust in Jesus to save us.

Unless one trusts in the work of Christ alone for salvation, one is not saved.

But that is what John 1:12 says. It says,

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name"
(John 1:12).​

Correct. Nothing here about praying, or asking Jesus for forgiveness.

To believe on His name is to place full trust and faith in Him to save you.

But you have made clear your views that one must achieve sinless perfection in order to be saved. So your entire theology is mixed up and unbiblical.​

This above passage says He gave them power to become sons of God to even those who believe on His name.
I mean, think. What about the man in some remote jungle somewhere whereby his language and culture is barbaric? He may not know how to call upon God to be saved, but He may understand the need for a Savior and believe the gospel message and thereby be saved as a result.
....

What, exactly, is the gospel message to be believed?

 

[FreeGrace2]

But you just showed how faith is a work. So works are required to be saved.

No, I didn't. Apparently my post was misunderstood.

Just because here it only says believing not mentioning other works does not mean that negates the other works that are connected with faith. Faith and obedience are inseparable.

The Bible never says that. In fact, obedience should result from faith. But Jesus showed that doesn't always happen. Luke 8:13

Joh 14:15 If you love Me, keep My commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will petition the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may remain with you to the age,
Joh 14:17 the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He abides with you and shall be in you.

These verses are about fellowship, not relationship.

It says we have to obey the commandments (plural) to receive the Holy Spirit.

No it doesn't. Gal 3:2 and 5 tells us HOW one receives the Holy Spirit.
2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

 

[-57]

And I disagree with that. If it is God's choice of who believes, then Paul's answer to the jailer was a lie. There is nothing that he could do to be saved. And Paul would have told him that. But he didn't. He told him the truth; believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.

Believing is what man does. And since it is non meritorious, man gets no credit whatsoever, regardless of how Calvinists try to spin it.

If God has already chosen who will believe, there is no rational explanation for evangelism. However, since the Bible commands us to evangelize, shows that man must believe from his heart (Rom 10:10).


When one is persuaded. As King Agrippa noted.


It's not a matter of stumbling. It's a matter of being persuaded by truth. Not everyone is interested in truth. Just as not everyone is interested in God. But many are interested, but unfortunately have been deceived by satan to follow false gods.


Just remember that John 6:44 is explained in the next verse, v.45. It's those who have listened and learned from the Father who will come to Jesus.

Once again I have to ask....why does one believe or not believe? No one really wants to tackle that question.
What Paul said was the truth...believe. Even John 3:16 says that...

The question is now, what does a person need to have the ability to believe and receive Christ? One thing is they need to hear the word. (bible). That is the rational explanation for evangelism.

The question get bigger....does one man hear the word because he went for a walk that night and heard a guy on the corner talking about Jesus while another sits at home and watches the news? Do we simply luck into christianity? OR.....does God have sovereign providence in out lives? Was it God who sent the man on the walk to hear the word...with the Holy Spirit regenerating the man...giving the man the ability to believe?

 

[Rick Otto]

I don't think there are to kinds of faith. Sounds like a made up concept. The Bible says faith

I agree, but James complicated things by hypothesizing faith without works, which I also don't believe exists except as James' theory for pointing out faith without works is a non-starter.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Once again I have to ask....why does one believe or not believe? No one really wants to tackle that question.

I sure did. It's about persuasion.

What Paul said was the truth...believe. Even John 3:16 says that...

The question is now, what does a person need to have the ability to believe and receive Christ?

I think the question is flawed. God has given everyone the ability to believe. It's called the mind, which has a God-given conscience. Rom 2 addresses the conscience.

One thing is they need to hear the word. (bible). That is the rational explanation for evangelism.

The rational explanation for evangelism is that everyone is born lost and headed for hell. And everyone needs the gospel to be saved.

 

[Rick Otto]

But you just showed how faith is a work. So works are required to be saved.

Just because here it only says believing not mentioning other works does not mean that negates the other works that are connected with faith. Faith and obedience are inseparable.

Joh 14:15 If you love Me, keep My commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will petition the Father, and He will give you another Comforter, that He may remain with you to the age,
Joh 14:17 the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He abides with you and shall be in you.

It says we have to obey the commandments (plural) to receive the Holy Spirit. To believe distinguished from all other works is only one commandment. Only if we have the Holy Spirit can we be saved because without the Spirit we do not belong to God.

Rom 8:9 But you are not in flesh, but in Spirit, since the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone has not the Spirit of Christ, this one is not His.

True faith in Scripture is connected with doing what pleases God, the good works according to his standard of righteousness, Hebrews 11. They are simultaneous.

Yes they are! And no one pleases God without the Holy Spirit & saving faith that grace imparts.
Saving faith IS a work - a work of God.

 

[-57]

Biblical "hope" is actually a 'confident expectation'. The Greek word isn't at all how we use the word today in English.

Having a confident expectation and wishing for something are 2 very different things.


Is your hope a wish, or a confident expectation?

Yes, "hope" is often confused. Thanks for pointing that out.

Today people like to say...I hope Carolina wins the Super Bowl or I hope Denver wins....basically wishing for a certain outcome.

The word hope in the bible expresses a "confident expectation" as you put it.

For instance "waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ," isn't a wish that Jesus returns....but rather a confident expectation of His return.

 

[-57]

I sure did. It's about persuasion.


I think the question is flawed. God has given everyone the ability to believe. It's called the mind, which has a God-given conscience. Rom 2 addresses the conscience.


The rational explanation for evangelism is that everyone is born lost and headed for hell. And everyone needs the gospel to be saved.

NO...you're taking the easy route. Why is one persuaded and another not?
Was there an event in their life that causes one not to be persuaded? What if that event never occurred and now they could be persuaded and accept Christ....Are you saying our salvation is dependent on what happens to us randomly in life?