The Latin Mass

[Gnarwhal]

Hey guys,

I'm just curious if anyone of the liberal persuasion in Catholicism also enjoys the Latin Mass. It often seems like there's a correlation between liberalism and a preference for the Novus Ordo (is that correct?), but I'm curious if anyone kind of occupies both camps?

If I ever join the church I would certainly prefer the Latin Mass. Unfortunately I missed out on it's availability of it here in my town by about a year. One of the parishes offered it up until about 18 months ago, and then apparently the Bishop decided it wasn't worth the resources? That's what I was told, anyway.

So just curious, thought I'd ask.

Oh, and here's a cool promo video I saw about the Latin Mass last night.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFiZDaCQT2M

 

[frenchdefense]

I'm old enough to remember the Latin Mass before V2.

It sucked.

You couldn't understand anything, it was disengaging, old women basically just prayed the rosary and ignored what was going on because no one understood it.

People like the Latin Mass, imo, for that same reason baseball fans argue about the designated hitter.

There are just some purist, traditionalists out there who have to be curmudgeons about everything


Ok, lets be real clear here:

This isn't OBOB right ?

I can actually say stuff like this without a bunch of born-again, creationist, end times weirdo mods swooping down on me because a bunch to TLM weirdos convinced them that I was insulting there Catholicism ?

(Not the I'm bitter about OBOB moderation or anything)

 

[Lily76_]

i can speak Ave Maria but that is it but i think that some masses should have it but hardly anyone understand it
unless there was more interest in it i feel there will be decline in those masses
I haven't been to church in such a long time because my anxiety is so bad

 

[Gnarwhal]

Haha, I think you're good.

I wouldn't say I'm a "purist" because... well, I'm not Catholic. But I love history, old things, antiquities, etc etc. So the Latin Mass appeals to me in that sense.

 

[frenchdefense]

Haha, I think you're good.

I wouldn't say I'm a "purist" because... well, I'm not Catholic. But I love history, old things, antiquities, etc etc. So the Latin Mass appeals to me in that sense.

That's why it appeals to most people.

The TLM is more about emotion than theology at this point.

 

[Fish and Bread]

Generally the support for the Traditional Latin Mass comes from the far right of the Catholic Church, which is kind of a shame, because I am a progressive who in Episcopalian circles would be called "high church"- i.e. I like ornate intricate liturgies with incense and bells and various extra traditional rituals and vestments that give a sort of mystical sense of being in another world. I like it for a lot of the same reason I liked mediating with Buddhist monks when I tried that. It's a way of getting away from the ordinary and connecting across time and space with something different.

In some ways, the lack of fully comprehensible language can be a plus when you don't like the doctrine- until the sermon comes along.

But I've only been to something like three 1962 missal Latin masses in my life because the sermons and general beliefs often associated with them are probably the farthest pole away from me.

It's just one of those things.

Probably has something to do with mass in the vernacular (i.e. language of the people) being one of several Vatican II era liberalizing reforms. So some conservatives hate it for that reason, and some progressives feel obliged to consider it the only mass of the Church for the same reason. It's tied up in church politics.

I'd probably if push came to shove do a very high liturgy that looked like the Latin mass, but was in English and used a very progressive liturgical rewrite well beyond the Vatican II reforms, even. Say hello to the gender-neutral God who's being we share and commune with through time who is never called Lord anywhere in my hypothetical mass.

I think Lord implies an outmoded feudal style relationship between God and creation that should be moved away from. God should not need abject worship, it makes him seem like someone who's ego needs constant reinforcement. God should be about communing with people in love and taking them in and lifting them up.

 

[mark46]

Liberal Catholics generally prefer to understand and participate in the mass.

Liberal Catholics might be very high church or very low church in their preferences; they may prefer differences styles of music, or none.

But, for me, the Latin Mass on a regular basis is off-putting.

 

[Tallguy88]

I've never been to a Latin Mass. I'd like to go just to see what it's like.

 

[Fantine]

I went to Latin Masses regularly until I was about 12 or so. My favorite Latin Mass years were spent up in the choir loft watching Sister play the organ and singing songs like "Tantum Ergo." That birds-eye view was pretty cool, and it was good to be busy during Latin Mass because it was very easy to get distracted, especially if you were a kid

The most ridiculous part was that even the Epistles (i.e. readings) were in Latin! Can you believe it? The liturgy of the Word was proclaimed in an archaic language (until the Gospel--our sole respite from Latin).

I took Latin in Catholic high school...I understand a lot of it.

What would bother me most today is the "ad orientem" stance of the priest. After Vatican II there seemed to be much more of an emphasis on the "Eucharistic feast" than the "holy sacrifice of the Mass." When the priest has his back turned on the people, I think we are much more attuned to the whole 'sacrifice' aspect, which to me is very primitive. When the priest faces us, the emphasis is on the last supper. We are a community. We, too, should give of ourselves to others. Modern theologians often say we become the Eucharist, the body of Christ, the gift to the world, when we are sent forth to love and serve one another.

 

[RKO]

I like the Latin Mass. In fact, a few years ago I served a few Latin Masses. I missed out on the pre-V2 stuff and wanted to learn and experience it. Very reverent and beautiful.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Hey guys,

I'm just curious if anyone of the liberal persuasion in Catholicism also enjoys the Latin Mass. It often seems like there's a correlation between liberalism and a preference for the Novus Ordo (is that correct?), but I'm curious if anyone kind of occupies both camps?

If I ever join the church I would certainly prefer the Latin Mass. Unfortunately I missed out on it's availability of it here in my town by about a year. One of the parishes offered it up until about 18 months ago, and then apparently the Bishop decided it wasn't worth the resources? That's what I was told, anyway.

So just curious, thought I'd ask.

Oh, and here's a cool promo video I saw about the Latin Mass last night.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFiZDaCQT2M

The ordinary for of the mass may be said in Latin as well as in the vernacular. It isn't being in Latin that makes saying a mass into the extraordinary form. The extraordinary form is said in Latin and not in the vernacular. Some folk call it The Tridentine Mass.

 

[Gnarwhal]

I randomly came across this Anglo-Catholic church's website, and they have an FAQ of sorts that give some really great explanations that I think could be extrapolated to why folks who regularly go to Latin Mass love it/prefer it.

At the very least, these questions/answers definitely explain why I like things that way.

 

[Fish and Bread]

I've never been to a Latin Mass. I'd like to go just to see what it's like.

I think anyone with an interest in church history would probably get something out of going to a TLM at least once in their lives. It's a beautiful ancient ceremony. Though I think the Tridentine missal was only really codified and near-universalized in the 16th century or something, and the missal that would be used is the 1962 missal, you're seeing a mass in the language of the Roman empire performed very similarly to way masses were said for over 1,000 years. High masses are especially neat if you can find one.

I would just tell people to be prepared for a sermon that might be kind of out there conservative, depending on the parish, the priest, and which Sunday you go. I'd also recommend people dress up to the nines if possible to fit in. And women should be prepared to wear mantillas (I think most of these masses usually have them at the door for women who don't have their own or forget them). It's usually a very traditional crowd.

Ironically, the mantilas are supposed to have something to do with modesty and not distracting guys, but I think some of them look kind of hot on the right woman, so I am not sure they are really working. It mostly just comes from tradition and a strict interpretation of one of the epistles where St. Paul writes that women should cover their heads in Church.

That applies to TLM in communion with Rome or conservative splinter groups. I've never seen an Anglo-Catholic (A previous poster mentioned Anglo-Catholicism, a movement within the Episcopal Church and the Anglican Communion at large) TLM, though I have seen Anglo-Catholic masses done ad orientum (Priest facing away from the people) with significant amounts of the liturgy (But not all of it) in Latin a couple of times.

 

[Open Heart]

When I was 16 and in school, we sung a piece called O Magnum Mysterium. It gave me a sense of such reverence, such mystery, such transcendence. It was such a shame that it was in a secular setting -- I longed to sing such a song in church where it rightly belonged. I was not Catholic at the time.

I have spent much of my life trying to find that same sense of reverence and mystery in church worship. I have found it recreated in things like Holy Week services, and times where I've sung latin pieces in the choir.

Last sunday, by coincidence, I DID attend my first ever Latin Mass. The music was awful, but overall the reverence did not disappoint.

I would like to see a Latin Mass offered at my own parish or at least closer than an hour away. I am not sure if I would attend every week, but I know I would go. I think I would not follow along in the Missil, as that seems to distract me from the aura. I do better watching the priest and just taking it in overall. Maybe I would join the schola.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I like the Latin Mass. In fact, a few years ago I served a few Latin Masses. I missed out on the pre-V2 stuff and wanted to learn and experience it. Very reverent and beautiful.

I've never been to a Latin Mass. I'd like to go just to see what it's like.

TG, you do need to go. I have been a few times and if you are familiar with the ordinaries you will be able to follow with the help of the bilingual Missal. I do OK without the missal as our Lutheran Mass is based on the pre-Trent Mass. One can say that the Extraordinary form and the Lutheran Mass were products of the same reformation.

Some had raised concerns about the lessons; yes they are all Chanted from the Altar in Latin; but in the Masses that I have attended, they are re read in English from the Pulpit just prior to the Homily. The most recent one I attended, a couple of the Cantilces for the Ordinaries sung by the choir were in Latin as composed by Bach, a Lutheran. The first settings of the Lutheran Mass were Latin, and our Choir still does a canticle or two in Latin every year.

 

[Rhamiel]

the continuity is kinda amazing too
over in Germany, people are saying those same prayers, those same words right as you are
over in the Philippines, same prayers, same words
over in Mexico, same prayers, same words
over in Vermont, same prayers, same words
over in Dublin, same prayers, same words
100 years ago
same prayers, same words
250 years ago
same prayers, same words

 

[Gnarwhal]

the continuity is kinda amazing too
over in Germany, people are saying those same prayers, those same words right as you are
over in the Philippines, same prayers, same words
over in Mexico, same prayers, same words
over in Vermont, same prayers, same words
over in Dublin, same prayers, same words
100 years ago
same prayers, same words
250 years ago
same prayers, same words

I think that's one of the most compelling things about it to me. Some tend to see Latin as a dead language that adds nothing to the experience, but to me it's more of a unifying factor.

 

[Rhamiel]

yeah, because Latin is no longer national
like it is post national
church latin is just that, a language for the church

 

[Eretria90]

I think that's one of the most compelling things about it to me. Some tend to see Latin as a dead language that adds nothing to the experience, but to me it's more of a unifying factor.

I have noticed (online at least) that many Catholics only look at the Latin Mass from the approach of language. It is not about the language, but the liturgy and the rich theology that permeate both the traditional Mass and the divine liturgy of St. Chrysostom (as well as the other liturgies in the different Eastern Churches, but I will not divulge into that); something that has sadly not been emphasized enough or "watered down" in the Mass of Paul VI, at least from my experience.

I guess I can sort of see why some people might be turned off by a foreign language due to cultural differences, but we cannot forget the deep connection there is with language and the liturgy. Remember all the many Christians (the Copts, Armenians, Ethiopians, etc.) who have preserved and hung onto their traditional liturgies throughout the centuries despite war, genocide, conflict, etc. That is why the Latin Mass should be important among all Catholics, and should be promoted and preserved.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I have noticed (online at least) that many Catholics only look at the Latin Mass from the approach of language. It is not about the language, but the liturgy and the rich theology that permeate both the traditional Mass and the divine liturgy of St. Chrysostom (as well as the other liturgies in the different Eastern Churches, but I will not divulge into that); something that has sadly not been emphasized enough or "watered down" in the Mass of Paul VI, at least from my experience.

I guess I can sort of see why some people might be turned off by a foreign language due to cultural differences, but we cannot forget the deep connection there is with language and the liturgy. Remember all the many Christians (the Copts, Armenians, Ethiopians, etc.) who have preserved and hung onto their traditional liturgies throughout the centuries despite war, genocide, conflict, etc. That is why the Latin Mass should be important among all Catholics, and should be promoted and preserved.

I've been to one and only one Extraordinary Form mass so far and I noticed that many people were praying the rosary while the mass was being said. I guess it was because they could not hear what was being said in Latin because the priest faced the tabernacle in the wall above the altar and thus had his back to the people. He spoke quietly, as the rubrics recommend, and only occasionally could his words be clearly heard - for example, when he said mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa - of course when the holy scripture was read in English with the deacon facing the people he could be heard and when the gospel was read and also the homily both with the priest facing the people hearing him was easy.

I liked the mass in the Extraordinary Form so this post is not a complaint against it. It is an observation about the practical realities of the Extraordinary Form in a small church with about 150 people attending (the small church was the Pro-Cathedral of the archdiocese of Perth, Western Australia and it seats no more than 200 people).

I also think it is worth noting that the orientation of the people and the priest in the same direction (but not necessarily East) was not common until the ninth century AD. A look at ancient churches and even churches built just before Trent illustrates that altars were built away from the wall allowing the priest to face the people (Versus populum), saint Peter's in Rome does not have the high altar against the wall (east wall or any wall for that matter) and the pope faces the people when saying mass in St Peter's. Many of the old cathedrals and parish churches also have altars away from the walls allowing the priest to face the people. It seems that building altars against a wall, often the East wall, arose in the 18th century AD.