The Last Trumpet: Short and to the point

[Jamdoc]

I've heard a lot of post trib point out "the last trump" from 1 Corinthians 15 and then claim it's Revelation 11's 7th trumpet
but.... in multiple places in the bible it's God who blows the trumpet at His return, not an angel.

 

[RandyPNW]

Christ has always been viewed as Coming to initiate God's Kingdom, and not to deliver the saints out of 7 years of Antichristian Tribulation. The Dispensational view, invented by JN Darby, was produced late in Christian history (approx. 1830), and does not jibe with the teaching of 2 Thes 2, in which Paul declared Christ's Coming for the Church would take place *after* Antichrist's appearance and only *at* the destruction of Antichrist. That is, the deliverance of the saints takes place *with* the destruction of Antichrist.

When angels blow trumpets it can be said that God is blowing the trump *through* them. Most of NT eschatology, including teaching about the coming of the Son of Man and the rise of Antichrist, originates from Dan 7. It is there that the Coming of the Son of Man is portrayed as coming *after* the reign of Antichrist, to defeat him and to establish God's Kingdom.

 

[Marilyn C]

Who is speaking to whom. The trumpet is a symbol of God speaking. (Rev. 1: 10)

At the rapture it is God speaking to the Body of Christ - `Come up here.`

In the trib, the 7 trumpets, are the voice of God in judgment to the nations.

 

[Jamdoc]

Christ has always been viewed as Coming to initiate God's Kingdom, and not to deliver the saints out of 7 years of Antichristian Tribulation. The Dispensational view, invented by JN Darby, was produced late in Christian history (approx. 1830), and does not jibe with the teaching of 2 Thes 2, in which Paul declared Christ's Coming for the Church would take place *after* Antichrist's appearance and only *at* the destruction of Antichrist. That is, the deliverance of the saints takes place *with* the destruction of Antichrist.

When angels blow trumpets it can be said that God is blowing the trump *through* them. Most of NT eschatology, including teaching about the coming of the Son of Man and the rise of Antichrist, originates from Dan 7. It is there that the Coming of the Son of Man is portrayed as coming *after* the reign of Antichrist, to defeat him and to establish God's Kingdom.

I'm not arguing in favor of a pretribulation rapture. I'm saying the last trumpet referred to by Paul is not the 7th trumpet blown by an angel in Revelation 11.

Zechariah 9

14 And the Lord shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord God shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
15 The Lord of hosts shall defend them; and they shall devour, and subdue with sling stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, and as the corners of the altar.
16 And the Lord their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.

This is the passage that both Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 echo
Jesus comes down, blows the trumpet, the saints are lifted above the ground as a banner/ensign in the sky, and then Jesus goes south to deal judgement to Edom.
Tribulation by Antichrist precedes the Lord's return, the Lord's wrath follows it.

 

[RandyPNW]

I'm not arguing in favor of a pretribulation rapture. I'm saying the last trumpet referred to by Paul is not the 7th trumpet blown by an angel in Revelation 11.

Zechariah 9



This is the passage that both Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 echo
Jesus comes down, blows the trumpet, the saints are lifted above the ground as a banner/ensign in the sky, and then Jesus goes south to deal judgement to Edom.
Tribulation by Antichrist precedes the Lord's return, the Lord's wrath follows it.

OK, sorry I misjudged you. I'll have to take a 2nd look at the Zeph 9 passage--I was aware of it, but have long shied away from this hard-to-read book!

 

[sandman]

Mat 24:29-31 Cannot be referring to that of 1Th 4:16.... as the events of the administration of grace which encompasses the mystery of the one body and also includes the gathering together (rapture).... were a secret hid in God, and not revealed until Paul received it by revelation.
Matthew is strictly dealing with the Great Tribulation.

1Co 15:50 - 58
v50) Is addressing the >brethren< which equates to those “in Christ” the born again believers…. as that is who Paul by revelation is addressing in 1 Corinthians. You can follow the pronouns (you, we, us, ye) through v58)

additionally ...v51) states ….I show you a secret (mystery)….. Is there any secret about the Great Tribulation (the period of the Day of the Lord)…. Nope ………….that has been prophesied centuries before….it was not a secret by any stretch. This section is strictly dealing with those in Christ for the gathering together in the air.


Same principles of reading apply to 1Th 4:13 - 18. (you, we, ye) all refer to those “in Christ” born again believers. ….The >them< in verses 13-18 references the dead “in Christ” ......................No one else at this time .... except those in Christ.... both dead and alive.

 

[Oseas]

I've heard a lot of post trib point out "the last trump" from 1 Corinthians 15 and then claim it's Revelation 11's 7th trumpet
but.... in multiple places in the bible it's God who blows the trumpet at His return, not an angel.

What matters and prevails is the Word of GOD, the Word is from everlasting to everlasting, the Word is GOD, self-executing/executable, understand?

1The.4:16 combined with Isaiah 26:19-21
- 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel(Michael), and with the trump of God: and the DEAD in Christ shall rise first:
Isaiah 26:19-21
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.


Daniel 12:1-3 combined with 1 The.4:16
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Revelation 11:15-18
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

...

18 And the nations were(WILL BE) angry, and thy wrath(GOD'S WRATH) is come, and the time of the dead(Daniel 12:2), that they should be Judged, and that thou should give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and should destroy them which destroy the earth.

Get ready

Revelation 12:10-12
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

 

[tranquil]

I'm not arguing in favor of a pretribulation rapture. I'm saying the last trumpet referred to by Paul is not the 7th trumpet blown by an angel in Revelation 11.

Zechariah 9



This is the passage that both Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 echo
Jesus comes down, blows the trumpet, the saints are lifted above the ground as a banner/ensign in the sky, and then Jesus goes south to deal judgement to Edom.
Tribulation by Antichrist precedes the Lord's return, the Lord's wrath follows it.

Agreed there is no pre-trib 'rapture'. No rapture of any kind at any time. The 'angels' of Matt 24:29-31 are the 'aggelos' (just means 'messengers') = the 2 witnesses that are gathering people to the coming kingdom of heaven at the 7th Trumpet. (John the Baptist was an 'aggelos' (G32) ('angel') in Matt 11:10 who 'called people to repent for the kingdom of heaven is coming' (Matt 3:2). that is what the 2 witnesses are doing.

the last trumpet is indeed the 7th Trumpet and is 1 Thess 4:16-17.

Where exactly Zech 9 is placed?

Zech 9:13 is talking about Zion vs sons of 'Greece'.

'Greece' is the Dan 7 3rd beast (leopard with 4 heads that is given world dominion). the locusts of Joel specifically are referring to these 'Greek' armies: Joel 3:6. These are the same 'locusts' as in Rev 9's 5th Trumpet (the 'people of the prince to come').

the 'great tribulation' comes, then the false christ arrives (imitating Jesus coming to 'cut the tribulation short'.

Matt 24:15-25 = GT cut short, then the false christ comes.

 

[Jamdoc]

OK, sorry I misjudged you. I'll have to take a 2nd look at the Zeph 9 passage--I was aware of it, but have long shied away from this hard-to-read book!

Oh it can be a tough read because it seems to jump around a lot but it is just, such a rich book.

 

[Jamdoc]

Mat 24:29-31 Cannot be referring to that of 1Th 4:16.... as the events of the administration of grace which encompasses the mystery of the one body and also includes the gathering together (rapture).... were a secret hid in God, and not revealed until Paul received it by revelation.
Matthew is strictly dealing with the Great Tribulation.

1Co 15:50 - 58
v50) Is addressing the >brethren< which equates to those “in Christ” the born again believers…. as that is who Paul by revelation is addressing in 1 Corinthians. You can follow the pronouns (you, we, us, ye) through v58)

additionally ...v51) states ….I show you a secret (mystery)….. Is there any secret about the Great Tribulation (the period of the Day of the Lord)…. Nope ………….that has been prophesied centuries before….it was not a secret by any stretch. This section is strictly dealing with those in Christ for the gathering together in the air.


Same principles of reading apply to 1Th 4:13 - 18. (you, we, ye) all refer to those “in Christ” born again believers. ….The >them< in verses 13-18 references the dead “in Christ” ......................No one else at this time .... except those in Christ.... both dead and alive.

Paul's revelation of grace was always hidden in the bible, Paul shined light on it, but it was not brand new.

Zechariah 9:14-16 compare it to 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and Matthew 24:29-31 without having prejudice about a rapture timing position. Just do it. Ignore the whole "pre-trib/post trib/pre-wrath/mid trib" debate and just compare scripture to scripture. Ignore what men teach you, read what God breathed.

THEN make a decision.

 

[Jamdoc]

Agreed there is no pre-trib 'rapture'. No rapture of any kind at any time. The 'angels' of Matt 24:29-31 are the 'aggelos' (just means 'messengers') = the 2 witnesses that are gathering people to the coming kingdom of heaven at the 7th Trumpet. (John the Baptist was an 'aggelos' (G32) ('angel') in Matt 11:10 who 'called people to repent for the kingdom of heaven is coming' (Matt 3:2). that is what the 2 witnesses are doing.

the last trumpet is indeed the 7th Trumpet and is 1 Thess 4:16-17.

Where exactly Zech 9 is placed?

Zech 9:13 is talking about Zion vs sons of 'Greece'.

'Greece' is the Dan 7 3rd beast (leopard with 4 heads that is given world dominion). the locusts of Joel specifically are referring to these 'Greek' armies: Joel 3:6. These are the same 'locusts' as in Rev 9's 5th Trumpet (the 'people of the prince to come').

the 'great tribulation' comes, then the false christ arrives (imitating Jesus coming to 'cut the tribulation short'.

Matt 24:15-25 = GT cut short, then the false christ comes.

Can't be the 7th trumpet, the Son of God is not an Angel, He is the Lord God who blows the trumpet.

 

[tranquil]

Can't be the 7th trumpet, the Son of God is not an Angel, He is the Lord God who blows the trumpet.

I already explained it, but for argument's sake, if what you said was true, where is it in Revelation?

Since Revelation does not say that the Lord blows a trumpet anywhere (by the way you interpret it), one cannot place Zech 9:14 anywhere in Revelation, so what is there to argue one way or the other?

 

[sandman]

Paul's revelation of grace was always hidden in the bible, Paul shined light on it, but it was not brand new.

Zechariah 9:14-16 compare it to 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and Matthew 24:29-31 without having prejudice about a rapture timing position. Just do it. Ignore the whole "pre-trib/post trib/pre-wrath/mid trib" debate and just compare scripture to scripture. Ignore what men teach you, read what God breathed.

THEN make a decision.

Things similar are not identical …..there are a few differences between Mat 24:29-31 and 1Th 4:16. Aside from the fact that the context of Matt 24 is the Great Tribulation.

The mystery (secret) > is that of the one body…the one new man… which is encompassed in the administration of grace. And that was hidden in God (1Co 2:6-8) and revealed to Paul. Without the one body …you don’t have a rapture …so the rapture was also hidden …as the rapture pertain only to those of us in Christ….alive and asleep.

So… it is axiomatic that there can be nothing in the OT or gospels concerning the rapture.

 

[Oseas]

What I was referring to was, Why *2 wings?* There is a specific emphasis on the number 2--not just that birds have 2 wings, but that 2 wings play a role in this deliverance of the Woman in the Wilderness. Angels sometimes are portrayed as having more than 2 wings. But this deliverance only has 2 wings. Why? Perhaps you don't think it is significant?

In my view it's very very significative. Psalm 91:4 says: He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under His wings shalt thou trust: His Truth shall be thy Shield and Buckler.
Psalm 61:4-5:
4 I will abide in thy tabernacle for ever: I will trust in the covert of thy wings. Selah.
5 For thou, O GOD, hast heard my vows: thou hast given me the heritage of those that fear thy name.

Exodus 19:3-6
3 And Moses went up unto GOD, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;

4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests(Revelation 5:10), and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

The Word is from everlasting to everlasting, the Word is GOD, self-executing/executable. In my vision, the two WINGS are the Old Testament and The New Testament - Revelation 12:14:
14 And to the woman were (will be) given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time(by the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD), and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Isaiah prophesied: Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows? Isaiah 60:8

Revelation 11:3-4
3 - I will give Power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days;
4 - These are the two olive trees(source of oil for the two candlesticks)
and the two candlesticks (two Churches:Jewish Church-Hebrews 12:23, and Gentile Church;John 10:16) ;
standing before the God of the earth. (the Holy Spirit: John 15:26, and 16:12-15. Take a look.)

GOD bless

Agreed there is no pre-trib 'rapture'. No rapture of any kind at any time. The 'angels' of Matt 24:29-31 are the 'aggelos' (just means 'messengers') = the 2 witnesses that are gathering people to the coming kingdom of heaven at the 7th Trumpet. (John the Baptist was an 'aggelos' (G32) ('angel') in Matt 11:10 who 'called people to repent for the kingdom of heaven is coming' (Matt 3:2). that is what the 2 witnesses are doing.

Right. As you said, "No rapture of any kind at any time". What really will and must occur is a convocation for a terrible and last War against that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, now red Dragon, which deceiveth the whole world(Re.12:9).

The victory is of GOD's people, and they will overcome the red Dragon and his messengers by the blood of the Lamb, and by the Word of their testimony; and they loved not (will not love) their lives unto the death-Re.12:11.
Then a loud voice will sound saying: "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the Kingdom of our GOD(Re.11:15 combined with Luke 20:35-36. Take a look.), and the Power of His Christ(Matthew 28:18. Take a look): for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our GOD day and night.

the last trumpet is indeed the 7th Trumpet and is 1 Thess 4:16-17.

Right. "We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel (Michael) and with the Trump of GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first(resurrection)-1The.4:15-16 combined with Daniel 12:1-3

12:1- And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time(Matthew 24:15&21-25.Take a look.): and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake(resurrection-1The.4:16), some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.:

Daniel 12:10 -
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

GOD bless

 

[Jamdoc]

I already explained it, but for argument's sake, if what you said was true, where is it in Revelation?

Since Revelation does not say that the Lord blows a trumpet anywhere (by the way you interpret it), one cannot place Zech 9:14 anywhere in Revelation, so what is there to argue one way or the other?

You'd have to go based on the other signs Jesus gives (darkening of the sun and moon, the common picture of the "Day of the Lord"), which would be the 6th seal, which is, "coincidentally" followed by a bunch of people in heaven, then silence in heaven and the wrath of God on Earth.

 

[Jamdoc]

Things similar are not identical …..there are a few differences between Mat 24:29-31 and 1Th 4:16. Aside from the fact that the context of Matt 24 is the Great Tribulation.

The mystery (secret) > is that of the one body…the one new man… which is encompassed in the administration of grace. And that was hidden in God (1Co 2:6-8) and revealed to Paul. Without the one body …you don’t have a rapture …so the rapture was also hidden …as the rapture pertain only to those of us in Christ….alive and asleep.

So… it is axiomatic that there can be nothing in the OT or gospels concerning the rapture.

The rapture was hidden but it was not a new invention by Paul. the Passage from Zechariah 9 I keep quoting has God's people saved and lifted above the land like jewels in a crown or an ensign (a banner), put on display. That is the catching up to the air.

The concept was there but until Paul explained it, I doubt anyone would have seen it in Zechariah. But now that I see it in Zechariah I cannot unsee it.
Similarly Isaiah 26:17-21, there's birth pangs, then the resurrection, and then the Indignation (wrath) of God that Isaiah, the now resurrected prophet, tells his people to hide in their chambers from.
There's 2 ways to look at this. Either God is resurrecting His people in harm's way and it's up to them to find a hiding place on Earth to keep safe from the Indignation, or Jesus has prepared a place of safety that the resurrected are taken to. I believe in the latter.

But it is coming after tribulation, that much is clear.

But I can't unsee that the resurrection takes place before the Indignation of God, but after labor pains. The resurrection, is part of the rapture. So no, this doctrine was not new from Paul, it was in Old Testament, but hidden, obscured, and Paul gave light to it.

 

[sandman]

The rapture was hidden but it was not a new invention by Paul. the Passage from Zechariah 9 I keep quoting has God's people saved and lifted above the land like jewels in a crown or an ensign (a banner), put on display. That is the catching up to the air.

The concept was there but until Paul explained it, I doubt anyone would have seen it in Zechariah. But now that I see it in Zechariah I cannot unsee it.
Similarly Isaiah 26:17-21, there's birth pangs, then the resurrection, and then the Indignation (wrath) of God that Isaiah, the now resurrected prophet, tells his people to hide in their chambers from.
There's 2 ways to look at this. Either God is resurrecting His people in harm's way and it's up to them to find a hiding place on Earth to keep safe from the Indignation, or Jesus has prepared a place of safety that the resurrected are taken to. I believe in the latter.

But it is coming after tribulation, that much is clear.

But I can't unsee that the resurrection takes place before the Indignation of God, but after labor pains. The resurrection, is part of the rapture. So no, this doctrine was not new from Paul, it was in Old Testament, but hidden, obscured, and Paul gave light to it.

Zec 9:14-16 is referencing Jews not the Church of God

You are convinced of your new revelation despite the fact that it is contrary to the truth…. Therefore I will not waste my time ….because we are miles apart on several things …. And since you have convinced yourself that Gods word regarding the mystery is irrelevant ….I am sure you can find some way to skate around these.

Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the administration of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things.

The word unsearchable in v9 is untraceable… cannot be traced out, cannot be comprehended.


Prophets of Old and even the angels desired to look into the gap between the grave and the glory …to no avail ……………….. because It was Hid in God. (1Pe 1:10-12)

 

[Jamdoc]

Zec 9:14-16 is referencing Jews not the Church of God

You are convinced of your new revelation despite the fact that it is contrary to the truth…. Therefore I will not waste my time ….because we are miles apart on several things …. And since you have convinced yourself that Gods word regarding the mystery is irrelevant ….I am sure you can find some way to skate around these.

Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the administration of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things.

The word unsearchable in v9 is untraceable… cannot be traced out, cannot be comprehended.


Prophets of Old and even the angels desired to look into the gap between the grave and the glory …to no avail ……………….. because It was Hid in God. (1Pe 1:10-12)

Acts 17

10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

The Bereans found what Paul was talking about with his doctrine in the old testament, Paul pointed it out to them, they searched the scriptures, and concurred, and believed.
the riches of Christ are unsearchable, but the doctrines of Paul ARE searchable and found within the gospels and the old testament.

 

[Fisherking]

I've heard a lot of post trib point out "the last trump" from 1 Corinthians 15 and then claim it's Revelation 11's 7th trumpet
but.... in multiple places in the bible it's God who blows the trumpet at His return, not an angel.

This is true, now if anyone would listen (they wont, their agendas are too important) they could see that the LAST TRUMP is referring to the Feast of Trumps which ends the Harvest season. (Think Church Age Harvest) So, Jesus has to fulfill all 7 Feasts, Israel were commanded to celebrate these feasts and they were called holy convocations (Dress Rehearsals), and they had no clue what they were pointing unto, but looking back, we can understand them, and see how all 7 pointed toward Jesus the Messiah fulfilling them.

Only Jesus can Fulfill the 7 Feasts.

Spring Feasts

1.) Feast of Passover (Jesus' blood is our passover, he fulfilled this, of course)
2.) Feast of Unleavened Bread (Jesus knew no sin, this he was unleavened, so he fulfills this feast)
3.) Feast of First-fruits (Jesus was the first-fruits of the grave, Jesus fulfills this also)

Summer Harvest (this feast was all alone on the calendar/the Church Age is a calling of Gentiles)

4.) Feast of Weeks/Pentecost/the Church Age Harvest of souls ( Jesus has been fulfilling this feast for nigh 2000 years now as out High Priest in heaven. We are his body, he is the head of the Church body, we are harvesting souls for Jesus/God, but only Jesus can change the dynamics, when the Father ends the Harvest and send Jesus back for his Bride. Notice, when Jesus left he said in my Fathers house are many mansions, if I go, I will come again and receive you unto myself. Well, a Bridegroom in Jewish tradition always stayed in a wedding chamber the father built for 7 days, that is what Jesus was referring unto. QUESTION, why would Jesus prepare us a room in his Fathers house, only to return to earth for his 1000 year reign? It makes absolutely no sense at all. Here is what really happens, lets look forward a bit to the 5th Feast, it is the Feast of Trumps, well why did Jesus say no man, not even he or the Angels knew the exact day nor hour of his return? He was pointing to the fact that the Feasts were all on God time, they started on the New Moon, so they could not tell if a New Moon would come in on day A or day B, the moons come in phases from a full moon to a New Moon which is pitch black. So, that saying does not mean we are clueless, because Israel were not clueless, they sent two men up into the hills to spy out exactly when the New Moon came in, once it got down to small slivers, they all knew it was very, very near. Likewise, we can know the Season and Year of the Pre Trib Rapture by using "clues", we just can't the exact Day nor Hour !!

So, who does Rev. 4:1 say sounds as a Trump? John says Jesus sounds as a trump. Paul mentions the LAST TRUMP, and he is referring unto Jesus who ends the Church Age Harvest, and thus Fulfills the 5th feast also, the Feast of Trumps (see below) So, when the New Moon was spotted Israel started blowing the trumps in 9 sets of 11 (99 times) then on the Last Trump, that officially ended the Harvest so Jesus must also fulfill this Feast, he will blow the Trump that ends the Church Age Harvest of the Mainly Gentiles, this is the Pre Trib Rapture. Now Israel are back on the clock/God time, see below.)

Fall Feasts yet to be fulfilled by Jesus

5.) Feast of Trumps (I Explained this above also in order to tie in the ending of the harvesting of souls during the Church Age with the Last Trump or Jesus calling us home)

6.) Feast of Atonement ( Who does Dan. 9:24-27 say has to Repent or Atone before the 70th week can come to an end? Well, of course it is Israel, that is who the 70 weeks (490 years) of penance is all about. So, after the Church Age Harvest ends vis the Feast of Trumps, we get the Feast of Atonement, meaning Israel will repent after the Time of the Gentiles [SERVICE UNTO God] has come full (See Romans chapters 9-11), then and only then does the Blindness fall off of Israel's eyes as a Nation. Individual Jews were of course never blinded. So, can we see this going down in the scriptures? Yes, see Zechariah 13:8-9, we see that 1/3 of the Jews will repent and come through the trials/fire, but that 2/3 will refuse to repent and will perish or die. Then ONE VERSE LATER, in Zech. 14:1 we see that the DOTL (God's Wrath) arrives, and in vs. 2 Israel is conquered then we get a 1260 day JUMP because in vs. 3 Jesus defeats Israel's enemies. So, every Feast, is being fulfilled by Jesus, whose blood is it that Atones for Israel? Jesus' blood of course Amen. )

7.) Feast of Tabernacles ( To tabernacles means to "DWELL WITH God" so Jesus fulfills this by setting up the 1000 year Kingdom Age where he rules with the Jewish peoples(who are ALL Israel, from all 12 tribes) from Israel and Jerusalem. Thus Jesus will fulfill as 7 Feasts. )

I just explained why its called the Last Trump. TBH, most people on these sites have no clue about Prophesy. It has been my calling along with Preaching for nigh 40 years. Study the word and ask God, He always answers those with a true heart, if you buy into the stuff on the message boards these people who really do not understand prophesy are just going to confuse you. When I see ANYONE who does not understand the Pre Trib Rapture, I will not heed ANYTHI G they have to say about Prophesy. God will not be mocked. God Bless

 

[RandyPNW]

The Word is from everlasting to everlasting, the Word is GOD, self-executing/executable. In my vision, the two WINGS are the Old Testament and The New Testament - Revelation 12:14:
14 And to the woman were (will be) given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time(by the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD), and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Isaiah prophesied: Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows? Isaiah 60:8

Revelation 11:3-4
3 - I will give Power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days;
4 - These are the two olive trees(source of oil for the two candlesticks)
and the two candlesticks (two Churches:Jewish Church-Hebrews 12:23, and Gentile Church;John 10:16) ;
standing before the God of the earth. (the Holy Spirit: John 15:26, and 16:12-15. Take a look.)

So the best I can gather from what you're saying is that the "2 Wings" of Rev 12.14 refers to God's deliverance and to the "2 Witnesses?" Other than the fact there are "2" in each case I don't see the connection between "wings" and "witnesses?" But thanks for your thoughts on this. I have a hard time making any connection with "wings" myself!

Right. As you said, "No rapture of any kind at any time". What really will and must occur is a convocation for a terrible and last War against that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, now red Dragon, which deceiveth the whole world(Re.12:9).

Yes, the Reign of Antichrist may be viewed as a kind of final war between God's saints and the Dragon. To avoid this time via a supposed Pretrib Rapture is to fail to have the courage to testify at a most important time in history.

I believe the Revelation was written to *encourage* the Church in times of tribulation, as opposed to calling for them to seek escape from times of trouble. At times we may be encouraged to escape a problem, but overall, the entire book was an exhortation to faithfulness in a time in which we must testify to Christ against Antichrists!

However, there have been Antichrists all down through history, during which time the saints have had to testify against them, as opposed to escaping to somewhere else. God has called for His people to be bold and brave, rather than cowardly and weak.

We must rely on God's strength to obey Him in any and all situations, whether it is convenient or not. We are not to become self-made martyrs, making ourselves a target for punishment that belongs to someone else. But when we are called upon to testify against evil, we must be willing to do so.

Right. "We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel (Michael) and with the Trump of GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first(resurrection)-1The.4:15-16 combined with Daniel 12:1-3

Yes, Jesus comes back to raise his people from the dead. The old decomposed, annihilated bodies will be replaced with new glorious bodies. This is when Jesus returns. Thanks for your thoughts!