1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a friendly forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The Known Facts

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by JohnR7, May 13, 2006.

  1. JohnR7

    JohnR7 New Member

    Messages:
    25,314
    Likes Received:
    134
    Faith:
    Pentecostal
    There seems to be a misunderstanding with the evolutionists as to what the known facts are here on this forum. First of all, it is a known fact that God created the universe that we live in. If you do not believe God created the universe, then perhaps you would like to discuss that on the apologist board. There is no reason to duplicate their efforts here on this board. Second of all, it is a known fact that the Bible is inspired by God and 100% relyable and dependable.

    The question then becomes one of interpretation. How do we understand the Bible in todays world with what is currently known from Science. Some of the traditional views of the Bible do not hold up with what is currently known in science. This leaves us with one of two choices. Either revaluate our understanding of the Bible and come up with a new interpretation, or reject science and the truth we find in science.

    This forum then has been set up to open up a dialoge between science and the Bible. It is no secret that this is a christian forum and the hope of the christians through this dialoge is to convert people to christianity. Even though they can tend to scatter at times more then they gather.
     
  2. z3ro

    z3ro Veteran

    Messages:
    1,569
    Likes Received:
    45
    Faith:
    Atheist
    While I restrain myself from commenting on the rest of your post, the above point is no where near true. Atheists on this board certainly don't accept that as a known fact. But, more importantly, your own christians don't accept that as a universal fact. That's why there are so many denominations. You must first show that it is a "known fact," as I'm sure many christians will disagree.
     
  3. Elduran

    Elduran Disruptive influence

    Messages:
    1,612
    Likes Received:
    28
    Faith:
    Atheist
    If they're still involved in efforts to show others this point, then it's hardly an accepted fact. Rather it's an item of faith.

    Faith AND interpretation. After all, there are christians who consider the bible to be largely allegorical, and they often maintain that the bible as the written word of men who at least claimed to speak for god is in fact less reliable than the creation itself, i.e. the earth and the facts we can derive from it.
     
  4. BeamMeUpScotty

    BeamMeUpScotty Senior Veteran

    Messages:
    2,438
    Likes Received:
    74
    Faith:
    Atheist
    I'm thinking of a word that begins with "t" and ends with "ll". Pick 2 more letters to finish this word please.
     
  5. Valkhorn

    Valkhorn the Antifloccinaucinihilipili ficationist

    Messages:
    3,046
    Likes Received:
    98
    Faith:
    Atheist
    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

    Yet, this evidence is void and absent in your post.

    For the first 'fact', since we cannot detect or measure a god or gods, this is a claim that is unverifyable - and therefore cannot be considered a fact - only an opinion.

    For the second, you would have to first prove anything was inspired by a deity that you cannot measure or test, which makes said claim fall flat to opinion only. The second claim - that the bible is 100% reliable, would mean that you've tested every verse, every form of canon (including the apocryphal books) and all translations.

    I doubt you are prepared to really back up your claim with the centuries of work required to do that.
     
  6. JohnR7

    JohnR7 New Member

    Messages:
    25,314
    Likes Received:
    134
    Faith:
    Pentecostal
    They maybe on this forum, but if they want to debate the Bible they would be better served over in General Apologetics
     
  7. z3ro

    z3ro Veteran

    Messages:
    1,569
    Likes Received:
    45
    Faith:
    Atheist
    Ah, but that's just it, they're not debating the bible. They are debating what has been observed on earth, and those observations do not point to a god. Oh, and feel free to adress the rest of my post.
     
  8. JohnR7

    JohnR7 New Member

    Messages:
    25,314
    Likes Received:
    134
    Faith:
    Pentecostal
    If evolution can be a fact and a theory, then christianity can be a fact and faith. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
     
  9. JohnR7

    JohnR7 New Member

    Messages:
    25,314
    Likes Received:
    134
    Faith:
    Pentecostal
    Who is they? The reason why we have discussion here is because they try to debate the Bible without having any science to back up what they are saying. I still maintain there is no conflict between science and the Bible, only between various interpretations of the Bible and various branches of science.
     
  10. dlamberth

    dlamberth Senior Contributor

    Messages:
    14,647
    Likes Received:
    244
    Gender:
    Male
    Faith:
    Other-Religion
    There's no musunderstanding.
    No, it isn't a known fact.
    No, it isn't a known fact. In the case of evolution and geology, the Bible does not even match up with what we observe in real life.

    .
     
  11. JohnR7

    JohnR7 New Member

    Messages:
    25,314
    Likes Received:
    134
    Faith:
    Pentecostal
    There is extraordinary evidence for the Bible. But the Bible is still fact and just like science has areas that are beyond debate,. For example, we do not get into philosophy. We do not try to determine if we exist or not. That would be counterproductive to the discussion. Just like making statements like: Do you still beat your dog, cat, kids, and so forth is a diversionary tactic and it is not productive to the discussion about science and evolution. There are things in the Bible that we just assume to be true. For example we assume that God created the universe we live in. To say there is no God is atheism, not evolution. To question if there is a God is apologitics, not evolution.
     
  12. z3ro

    z3ro Veteran

    Messages:
    1,569
    Likes Received:
    45
    Faith:
    Atheist
    The reason we are having a discussion is because some people refuse to see what is put in front of them, and those people wish to destroy the education of an entire nation's youth.
     
  13. z3ro

    z3ro Veteran

    Messages:
    1,569
    Likes Received:
    45
    Faith:
    Atheist
    Um, evolution is a fact and theory because that's the way science works. If christianity is a fact, then faith is not needed. The two are mutually exclusive.
     
  14. z3ro

    z3ro Veteran

    Messages:
    1,569
    Likes Received:
    45
    Faith:
    Atheist
    Evolution makes no statement, positive or negative, about god. In that way, the question of god is divorced from evolution. To say the theory of evolution accepts god as fact is falsehood.

    And feel free to address my point about different christians with different ideas about the "100%" bible.
     
  15. dlamberth

    dlamberth Senior Contributor

    Messages:
    14,647
    Likes Received:
    244
    Gender:
    Male
    Faith:
    Other-Religion
    In the OP, you make claim that it is a fact that God created the universe, now you say it's an assumption. Those are two different levels of knowing. I believe that you making "assumptions" is much closer to the truth of things here.

    .l
     
  16. JohnR7

    JohnR7 New Member

    Messages:
    25,314
    Likes Received:
    134
    Faith:
    Pentecostal
    I assume your talking about how evolutionists "refuse to see what is put in front of them". I do not think that evolutionists actually want to destory our youth though. They leave MTV to do that.
     
  17. Elduran

    Elduran Disruptive influence

    Messages:
    1,612
    Likes Received:
    28
    Faith:
    Atheist
    You can observe evolution occurring in short-lived creatures, watch traits be selected for and propagating, and we can now directly observe speciation events. That makes these facts.

    Can we put god under a microscope and see him? Can we perform tests to show that god interferes with life in any way? No and no. God is not a fact.
     
  18. z3ro

    z3ro Veteran

    Messages:
    1,569
    Likes Received:
    45
    Faith:
    Atheist
    Of course john, of course[sigh].
     
  19. JohnR7

    JohnR7 New Member

    Messages:
    25,314
    Likes Received:
    134
    Faith:
    Pentecostal
    It does not matter if you call it a fact or an assumption, the truth still is that "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth". Genesis 1:1 We just accept that God created the heaven and the earth. The discussion begins when you ask HOW did God create the heaven and the earth. Or you could try to define just what the heaven and the earth is. There is lots of room for discussion here. But we accept that God did create the heaven and earth. If you want to debate if the Bible is true or not is something they do over on the other board.
     
  20. JohnR7

    JohnR7 New Member

    Messages:
    25,314
    Likes Received:
    134
    Faith:
    Pentecostal
    Science can neither prove or disprove God. They can offer no evidence one way or the other. Religion asks: "WHY?" Science asks: "HOW?"