Great Story that avoids the three simple "Yes" or "No" questions posed. But we understand this a typical Islamic tacit to divert ones attention from the truth.
Wait for your reply.
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Islam The Injil is the New Testament.
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Great Story that avoids the three simple "Yes" or "No" questions posed. But we understand this a typical Islamic tacit to divert ones attention from the truth.
Wait for your reply.
Step 1:
I bear witness that Isa (radi Allahu ‘anhu) was a prophet of Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla).
Step 2:
Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) does not tell us that the disciples of Isa converted to Islam (they could not have done, since that Religion did not exist at the time). This is what The Exalted tells us: ‘When Jesus realised they (still) did not believe, he said: ‘Who will help me in Allāh’s cause?’ The disciples said: “, ‘We will be Allāh’s helpers; we believe in Allāh - witness our devotion to Him.’ (Al‘Imran: 52).
And again: ‘……and how I (Allāh - Subḥānahu ūta'āla) inspired the disciples to believe in Me and My messengers – they said, “We believe and bear witness that we devote ourselves (to Allāh)”’ (Al-Ma’ida: 111).
This refers to those who devoted themselves to HaShem as Jews. Isa (radi Allahu ‘anhu) was, of course, one of these.
Step 3:
Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla) says this: ‘…..Jesus, I will take you back and raise you up to Me: I will purify you of the disbelievers. To the Day of Resurrection I will make those who follow you superior to those who disbelieved. Then you will all return to Me and I will judge between you regarding your differences.’ (Al‘Imran: 55).
I repeat, Isa (radi Allahu ‘anhu) was a prophet of Allāh (Subḥānahu ūta'āla). Those who truly follow him are those who, among other things, confess that he was, and is, no more that a man. The Messiah, for sure; but merely a man. In no way divine. This is what he believed. This is what the Muslims believe.
Move on just as soon as you wish. By the way, it is not the best use of your time to demand YES/NO answers from me. Your questions will get the answers they deserve.
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Jadis40
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Except Jesus was more than a man. While Jesus was on this earth He was 100% god and 100% human. So yes, Jesus is divine, regardless of what the Muslims say when their faith didn't even come into existence 600 years later.
John 1:1-14 spells it out:
The Word Became Flesh
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, lthat all might believe through him.8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own, and his own people did not
receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name,
he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood
nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen
his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
So there you have it - The Word was with God and was God. The Word became flesh. The Word can only refer to Jesus. Jesus is the Word who became flesh, therefore Jesus is divine. There's no getting around the clear meaning of scripture.
Jesus himself said that he was the light of the world in John 8:12.
John 1:1-14 spells it out:
The Word Became Flesh
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, lthat all might believe through him.8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. 11 He came to his own, and his own people did not
receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name,
he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood
nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen
his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
So there you have it - The Word was with God and was God. The Word became flesh. The Word can only refer to Jesus. Jesus is the Word who became flesh, therefore Jesus is divine. There's no getting around the clear meaning of scripture.
Jesus himself said that he was the light of the world in John 8:12.
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That's the Trinitarian argument (one I shared, and defended, for over sixty years). This section of the Forum is set aside to debate non-Christian religions. And this thread is dedicated to one aspect of Islam. Please don't expect any Muslim to accept that Isa (radi Allahu ‘anhu) was, in any way, divine. On this matter we must agree to differ.
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Thanks for your reply and from this it is clear you yourself do not agree with the Quran. Thus mitigating the very base of your faith. Since the Quran states that it is clear and in detail (6:114) we can take what it says at face value and does not require the Quranic gymnastic you employ. I explain as follows:-
Step 1
Surah 19:30 [Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allah . He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet.
Surah 19:30 We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what We enjoined upon Abraham and Moses and Jesus - to establish the religion and not be divided therein.
This is clear that Jesus was a prophet, established a religion and was given the scripture.
Your claim that Jesus was only a prophet is only half the Islamic truth and thus you are failing in representing your faith accurately.
Step 2
You say “Allāh does not tell us that the disciples of Isa converted to Islam (they could not have done, since that Religion did not exist at the time).”
Well this is again in direct contradiction to what the Quran says and refer you again to Surah 3:52
But when Jesus felt [persistence in] disbelief from them, he said, "Who are my supporters for [the cause of] Allah?" The disciples said," We are supporters for Allah. We have believed in Allah and testify that we are Muslims [submitting to Him].
If this is your view you are making up tour own religion and is not a true representation of the teaching of the Quran. Thus you are either not a Muslim or your Quran is False.
Secondly if Islam was not established through the prophets before Mohammad as you claim then the Quran is again in accurate as it time again refer to prophets from Adam through to Jesus as prophets of Islam who established the Islamic faith. (See step 1 above). Thus we can deduct from your statement that there is no biblical bases for Islam and all reference to the bible i.e. creation Abraham, Moses ect must be removed from the Quran as false teaching. If we do this Islam bases for its faith is reference to pagan belief only and thus is not a religion from the one true God.
Step 3
The simple question asked was if you agreed with surah 3:55 that Allah promises that these believers will be superior to disbelievers and will be here till the resurrection.
You have failed to answer this. Which I point out that you would not base on the fact that you cannot as it proves Islam to be a false religion based on the brilliant mind of Mohammad and his desire for power.
Conclusion.
Since your view is in direct conflict to the Quranic teachings and revelations, as you claim to be a Muslim I must therefore concluded that Muslims in general do not follow there holy book on the bases that they know it is false.
Finally I would have liked to have completed the 8 steps with you however since you have shown that you do not believe in the Quran in Step 1 & 2 it is pointless as we are thus in agreement it is a false book.
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Yes, "regardless of what Muslims say their faith didn't even come into existence 600 years later"
What do Jews say who Jesus was one of them ?
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Islam is about "No god but Allah" and follow the Law of prophet of that time.
Islam means submission to Allah, and peace.
Islam is the religion of all prophets.
Islam is not just started in the 6th century CE, it's since Adam and Hawaa.
It's clear in Quran that all prophets were Muslims.
Islam means submission to Allah, and peace.
Islam is the religion of all prophets.
Islam is not just started in the 6th century CE, it's since Adam and Hawaa.
It's clear in Quran that all prophets were Muslims.
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Well that is not what is stated in post 62 & 66.
Again we see Muslims change there view depending on which argument they wish to make.
Therefore they themselves are unsure as to what the correct teaching is in the Quran and have to rely on the false deductions of writings that come 200 to 300 years later commonly know as the Hadith
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As-Salāmu ‘alaykum, brother.
You are perfectly correct. Islam is indeed the religion of all the prophets, since Adam and Hawaa. I portrayed the ‘man in the street’ view of Islam as a ‘new’ religion. That was an error. Thank you for your timely reminder.
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Islam was established through the prophets before Muhammad (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam). See my apology to Brother Limo.
Nemo mortalium omnibus horis sapit!
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Walikom Alsalm
Thank you for your humble response. Unfortunately people misuse such adoption of their point of view for the seek of discussion.
Regards
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Not sure why you are apologising to Limo your misrepresentation is against the Quran and Allah. Not to mention your reply to my question you stated.
Thus we are in agreement, Islam has no foundation in the bible or its prophets it is a fabrication made by Mohammad.
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Interesting rebuttal to the fact quoted which you have been unable to answer in any logical fashion. or offer proof to state other wise.
Forexample your Hadith tell us how mohammad died
Sahih al-Bukhari 4428, Suna Abu Dawud 4498 & 4449, At Tabari page 124 conforms the following:-
Muhammad said “I feel my aorta is been cut from the poison”, “This is the time when it has cut of my aorta”, “at this very moment I fell my aorta been severed”,
Funny thing is surah 69:44-46 tells us how a false prophet would die.
And if Muhammad had made up about Us some [false] sayings, We would have seized him by the right hand; Then We would have cut (sever) from him the aorta.
We confirm this meaning from one of the greatest Muslim commentaries Tafsir Jalalayn:
then We would have assuredly severed his life-artery the aorta of the heart a vein that connects with it and which if severed results in that person’s death.
Of all the ways a person could die, Allah chose to cut Mohammad s aorta proving that he was a false prophet. what an embarrassment to Islam.
SINCE THE QURAN IS CLEAR AND FULL OF DETAIL, THE HADITH QUOTED AS AUTHENTIC AS THEY CAN GET, MUSLIMS ARE LEFT WITH THE KNOWLEDGE THAT EITHER THE SURAH 69 IF A FABRICATION IN WHICH CASE DESTROYS THE ISLAMIC FAITH BASED ON THE FACT THE QURAN IS SUPPOSEDLY WITHOUT ERROR OR IT IS TRUE IN WHICH CASE IT DESTROYS THE ISLAMIC FAITH AS MOHAMMAD BEEN A FALSE PROPHET.
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Unfortunately, sometimes I've to write such challenges as a response to some words.
As you've influenced let us discuss it logically
In fact, you know Trinity is a complicated philosophy. It's too difficult to express your thoughts about it. This is why there is no unified view among Churches.
When it comes to "Islamic" sects, Bahai's are not Muslims, they don't even call themselves as Muslims. Same for Ahmadiies, Drooz, Alaweys (Nosairies),,, these ar non-Muslim at all as their view to Allah and Prophet(s) is totally different from Sunnis one.
When it comes to Sunnis and Shiies, you'll not find main differences in thoughts about Allah and Prophet Mohamed with moderate Shiis like Imamies and Etha-Ashries. In a matter of fact, it was a political conflict but it turns to religious conflict later. The main difference/conflict is in valuing and love of Prophet Mohamed companions.
Some Shiis have gone so far from Islamic believe in Allah and Prophet Mohamed. They're not considered Moslims like Ismaillies, BAtinees, Fathimees
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Albion
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Actually, there is a unified view among the churches on that subject. Yes, there are a few smallish church bodies that are considered cults by the rest of Christianity, but Islam has such groups too. The great majority of Christian churches are of one mind about the Trinity, however.
Then let's not call Unitarians and similar movements "Christian" at the same time.
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Islam has a well known definition, If you know, there are 5 pillar of Islam, 6 items to believe (Iman / Belief), accept all Quran and true Hadeeths.
Missing all or even one of these, It's no longer Islam.
On the other hand, there is no clear definition for Christianity.
Actually , the Trinity detailed definition is the main reason of dividing of Christianity into big Churches like Catholics, Orthodox, Coptic,,,, (forget about Unitarian, Mormon, JW,, )
Take into consideration, Trinity belief settled down as the belief of main stream only in 281 CE after Constantinople council. Between Nicaea 325 CE and Constantinople council the main stream and the state Christianity was the Unitarian belief according to Arius.
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