The Indwelling-Gift of the Holy Spirit

tonychanyt

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Prosopon/prosopa is used a number of times throughout the New Testament, translated variously as "face", "presence", "appearance", and "person". Depending on the translation.

Hypostasis is also used, for example just off the top of my head, in the first chapter of Hebrews where it says that the Son is the express image of the Father's Hypostasis.

Outside of the Bible these words were taken and used in a specific way when talking about the Trinity, to ensure that we are speaking rightly about God as opposed to speaking wrongly about Him.

By the way, Here's the relevant passage from Hebrews, Hebrews 1:3

ὃς ὢν ἀπαύγασμα τῆς δόξης καὶ χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ φέρων τε τὰ πάντα τῷ ῥήματι τῆς δυνάμεως αὐτοῦ δι᾽ εαυτοῦ καθαρισμὸν ποιησάμενος τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν ημῶν, ἐκάθισεν ἐν δεξιᾷ τῆς μεγαλωσύνης ἐν ὑψηλοῖς

It's this phrase, χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ, charakter tes hypostaseos autou, "express image of His Hypostasis".

-CryptoLutheran
Sure. I am just not interested in arguing about Trinity because the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible. I am not against anyone arguing about it :)
 
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OldAbramBrown

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Let proposition A1 = Each Spirit-Filled Christian has all the Spirit.

None of the above claims A1 as you have claimed.
Can you recap for us whether that would be a good or a bad thing? You're causing me to lose context. Thank you.
 
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OldAbramBrown

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Sure. I am just not interested in arguing about Trinity because the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible. I am not against anyone arguing about it :)
The Holy Trinity models space making for the other other (the orphans and widows).

Bible reading isn't only bare propositions, it is inferring as well. J H Newman urged degrees of that, on every subject.

In ontology, three is the lowest number that stands for (is a special case of) more than itself as well (isn't cliquey).

Our being made in the image of God is providence in the contingent universe.

Person = an orphan or widow, those are in the Bible.
 
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Hermeneutico

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As with most on this forum, you are here to push an agenda. That's ok, most do it. I stopped long ago trying to convince people.

Hi,

I do have an agenda, but it is far from yours. I'm not attempting to convince anyone in this forum to agree with me. I'm hoping people will disagree with me. Why? I am looking to find all legitimate (evidence-based logical, historical, and exegetical arguments) against what I am teaching. Then, through more research, I hope to find legitimate solutions.

All I do now is mostly call out error as I did with you posts.

I'm sorry to disappoint you. Nothing you have presented offers any legitimate arguments for what I've written. It is far from evidence-based. Merely saying I'm afraid I must disagree or posting a link isn't an argument. No theological professor in any Graduate school would consider that methodology legitimate. Sorry.

With your posts, I provide the resource of the entirety of documents you took snippets of and posted. People who read this thread will now have a place to go to read the documents you grossly misinterpreted. I'm good with that.

You did not. All you did was provide a link written by those with similar degrees that I possess.

If you want to provide a legitimate link, you would need to provide a link to all the writings of the church fathers. Here, let me help you:


Blessings
 
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OldAbramBrown

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Let readers read and come to their own conclusion rather than the odd one the author you quoted comes to.

Good grief, I could care less if you had 10 Roman Catholic Priests. Too funny
Tertullian was a stoic and was sometimes useful on background information but not interpretation.

"To be deep in History is to cease to be protestant"...Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman

Sometimes, JHN was speaking to his time, not always well at that. But I like his general work a lot.

I don't go for slogans like catholic, protestant, calvin, etc.
 
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concretecamper

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Tertullian was a stoic and was sometimes useful on background information but not interpretation.

"To be deep in History is to cease to be protestant"...Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman

Sometimes, JHN was speaking to his time, not always well at that. But I like his general work a lot.

I don't go for slogans like catholic, protestant, calvin, etc.
Church Fathers are useful for showing that the ideas that many claim were invented in the middle ages were in fact believed early in the Church. No single Church Father is greater than the Church. One should not based doctrine on what any one Church Father wrote.
 
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OldAbramBrown

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I'll bite... just need the evidence. Thanks
Go to a range of churches (of all sorts of denominations), listen to their U tubes, read their books and articles, and some of the viewpoints in some of the discussion on CF. I'm "less qualified" than you so I hold you in such awe I expect you to be up to it.
 
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Hermeneutico

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Go to a range of churches (of all sorts of denominations), listen to their U tubes, read their books and articles, and some of the viewpoints in some of the discussion on CF. I'm "less qualified" than you so I hold you in such awe I expect you to be up to it.

I've studied this topic for over 40 years. I think the problem may stem from the fact that you may be misunderstanding my position. What do you think I'm trying to communicate?

Yours, in Christ
 
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OldAbramBrown

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... What do you think I'm trying to communicate?
I'm going on your posts.

In my hard won observation, the "gift of the Holy Spirit" (grammatical singular) is the same as the inbreathing / indwelling. "Gifts plural of the Holy Spirit" - which are diverse - are providentially imparted because of Ascension.

Additionally, in context the phrase in Scripture "gift of the Holy Spirit" may refer to both these things as a group ( * ), which never implied they weren't distinct. As to having one and not the other: not having our gifts to strengthen our exercise of virtues can lead to fruitless moralising, while not having inbreathing maddens.

Our entering in follows from our distinct believing and that follows from distinct teaching. What was preached as a Baptism In The Holy Spirit (BIHS) I prefer to call a component of belief which Jesus and the Apostles intended to be part of the Gospel. Some apostles sometimes imparted a bit that had got forgotten by someone previously.

The disciples' supplicating in fear was their normal ministering. Pentecost was a re-infilling and every re-infilling is a sample and not a ceremony or mannerism. That together with the usage I mentioned ( * ) furnished some teachers with an excuse to conflate. A good meal comprises several components. It is a meal, but it is in parts (Prov 21: 10-31, and parables about rations).

Historic protestants inherited a woolly set of concepts from the hierarchy-bound and politicised Roman Catholic church, and indeed were often politicised themselves. I think some historic protestants intuited these were distinct things to complete the Gospel but hadn't been furnished with the concepts or usages.

You are very right that - since well before the clericalist Augustine - initiation had become completely misunderstood. (A small subset of easterners also, have since espoused the western views.)

Teachers of good balance such as Jessie Penn Lewis and Martyn Lloyd Jones would get their writings censored to make it look as it they were promoting lunacy or quenching the Holy Spirit - both things they explicitly and directly opposed. Indolent fashion (away from, these days, Bethel) erred - I do mean erred - on the superficially cautious side, which suits patronising hierarchies.

Preaching by Jesus or Apostles didn't take the few seconds going over quotes takes. They knew how to bring in the meanings of all the things the Gospel includes, all the meanings of the prophets, of Prov 21: 10-31.
 
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OldAbramBrown

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For the first 1000 years of Christianity, ALL CHRISTIANS taught that one does not receive the Gift-Indwelling of the Holy Spirit until after conversion.
This from your post 24. As an apparent proposition it contains a non sequitur as rebutted in my immediately preceding post, and not all those teachers at the time (to whom there would have been exceptions anyway) were conscious of the illogic.

Interestingly there are many concepts of conversion. Coming from a pagan milieu one visibly converted as the culmination of initiation. (Whether or not the distinction in my preceding post was honoured by teachers.)

In an ongoing life and walk, and in what has been burned-over country for hundreds of years like America and England, an important usage of the word conversion is sanctification. The gifts plural, personal to each, strengthen the exercise of our virtues so that our subsequent works aren't in the flesh, contriving.
 
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OldAbramBrown

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... Acts 2:38 ... Acts 10:45 ... 10:47
In my viewpoint all three of these passages alike, indicate the grouped meaning of both inbreathing and imparting, which would be taught jointly; flagged up by me as ( * ) above.

There wouldn't be a reason to omit distinct parts of the gospel, just because one was including them both. That would amount to a false dichotomy combined with conflation - nowadays a common habit in spiritual and secular milieus, alas.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Sure. I am just not interested in arguing about Trinity because the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible. I am not against anyone arguing about it :)

Why should it matter whether the word "Trinity" is in the Bible or not?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Hermeneutico

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Sure. I am just not interested in arguing about Trinity because the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible. I am not against anyone arguing about it :)

If using words only found in the Scripture as your model, why do you use the word "Bible"? Do you eliminate all theological terms from your vocabulary?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Good question.

That's how my brain is wired. By nature, I am an efficient minimalist: Occam's Razor :)

As I say what I'm about to say, I want to be clear that as a Lutheran I subscribe to the Lutheran position of Sola Scriptura, that Scripture alone is the Unruled Rule of Christian faith. In other words, Scripture is the highest authority in matters of faith and practice in the Church and the Christian life. And that nothing can be accepted that violates or opposes Scripture, which is the faithful, and received word of God in the Church.

It's important to remember that the Bible itself doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's not as though suddenly, out of the blue, there was this leather-bound book with a self-authenticating authority. The Bible is a collection of texts which were written over a span of centuries by numerous authors, in different locations and under different circumstances. Comprised of two halves, an Old Testament, containing the Torah, the Prophets, and Writings, and of the books that make up these three parts of the Old Testament there was no universal agreement among Jews until the post-Temple Rabbinic period of Judaism. In Christianity, the Old Testament Canon developed in a distinct way from the way it developed in Judaism. As it pertains to the second half of the Bible, the New Testament, it can be broadly split into two categories of writings: Homolegomena, the writings which were near-universally accepted from very early on, and the Antilegomena, or "contested writings" which were debated and discussed for a long time in Christianity.

The evolution of the Bible as a Canon of Sacred Scripture; that is, a unified standard of texts regarded as holy; took place over many centuries. And in a sense, that discussion and debate has continued until today, as there are still disagreements over certain books, which the Protestant churches have generally called "The Apocrypha" since the time of Martin Luther, but which the Western Church has generally designated Deuterocanonical (the distinction between Protocanonical and Deuterocanonical doesn't exist in the Eastern Churches).

The way the Canon of the Bible evolved and developed was chiefly liturgical. Which is to say, it happened in the context of Christian worship. Like our Jewish cousins before us, Christian worship is historically liturgical, following a form, order, and pattern. Part of that order of worship includes reading Sacred Scripture, and often preaching (in the form of a homily or sermon) that ties those readings into a message to help benefit, encourage, and guide the Faithful. To that end, the question throughout Christian history was, "Which books are to be read?" That is, which books should be read because they are, as Paul says in 2 Timothy 3:16, "useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,"

Which books are to be accepted as the Christ-bearing, divinely inspired works which should be read in the churches, that the Faithful are built up, trained in righteousness, where they are taught in the right way of Christ and His Church, rebuked of their sin, corrected in matters of faith and morals, etc.

As noted, that process of asking "which books are to be read?" was a long one, and is still an issue which divides Christians today--as Catholics say one thing, Orthodox another, and Protestants (generally) still another.

So this Bible, which we have received through the generations of Christians who came before us, is a volumous body of work which while supreme in its authority (I speak here as a Lutheran who adheres to Sola Scriptura), does not exist itself alone, as though in a vacuum; but which has been read, believed, confessed, and received within the specific and particular circumstances and context of an actively-lived Christian faith and community practicing and believing that faith together. The Bible is, therefore, a Church document, a distinctively Christian work with a distinctively Christian purpose: To guide us in the right way of faith in Jesus Christ, by bearing for us Jesus Christ, His life, His death, His resurrection, what He has taught, what He has given. In the form of both commandment, what God tells us to do and how to live; and in the form of promises, what God says He has done, is doing, and will do for us.

That is why "Bible-onlyism" really doesn't work. And why one can't take this minimalistic approach that you are taking. It treats the Bible as something foreign to Christianity, rather than situated right in the middle of Christianity.

There is a living and dynamic relationship between the believing people of God, the Church, and the received record and word of the Holy Scriptures, the Bible.

There's no good reason to take a "minimalistic approach". Consider the numerous heretical groups which claim to do something similar, claiming they only use and believe the Bible. Like the Jehovah's Witnesses, or the Christadelphians, and so forth. They are dismissing the history, the living context of Christianity in history, and trying to take part of that living witness, the Bible, and then build a brand new religion. But what they are doing will always be missing pieces, because the Bible on its own can't make Christianity. Christianity is made by Christ, and the living community of His people, in which the Scriptures are received, believed, and confessed as the holy and received word of God.

This is why Sola Scriptura is not Bible-onlyism. The way in which Scripture is alone in Sola Scriptura is in the way that Scripture alone is infallible, Scripture alone is unfailing, Scripture alone never errors nor fails to bear Christ to us. If the Scriptures are being taught properly, if they are understood rightly, if they are confessed faithfully, then the Church rests securely in this precious word, because it is the very word of God. But if the Bible is used wrongly, if the Bible is abused, or if the Faithful are deprived of its life-giving word, then the Church suffers, or even worse, we concoct a myriad of heresies which lead people away from Christ.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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tonychanyt

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Hermeneutico

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Yes, which is what happened on Pentecost.



This promise being attached to the Sacrament of Baptism.



Yes, we see that at the household of Cornelius an event very similar to what happened at Pentecost. Peter understood this as a sign from God that what established at Pentecost--the going forth of the Gospel ("You shall be My witnesses...")--was intended to include the Gentiles. Up until then the focus had been on Jews and Samaritans, but God made it clear to Peter that this was meant for Gentiles also. God gives Peter a vision, someone then asks Peter to go preach at this Gentile household, and when he does he witnesses the same kind of thing happen there that happened with them on Pentecost.

Now here's something to pay attention to. Did you notice that event though the laying on of hands for the reception of the Spirit for the Samaritans is mentioned between these two events, there's no pouring out of the Spirit like there was on Pentecost or Cornelius' house.

Baptism with the Holy Spirit is attached to what happened on Pentecost, the pouring out of the Spirit. And then Peter links that also with what happened at Cornelius' household.

Elsewhere we see that people are baptized and have hands laid on them. But the laying on of hands is NOT called "baptism with the Holy Spirit".

That's why I said pay attention to what is NOT called "baptism with the Holy Spirit". This phrase is connected only to an outpouring of the Spirit, what happened at Pentecost. And what happened at Cornelius' household is brought into this by the connection it has with Pentecost.

But the laying on of hands among the Samaritans? Not baptism with the Holy Spirit.
The laying on of hands with the disciples at Ephesus in Acts 19? Not baptism with the Holy Spirit.

That's important.



Scripture only applies this language to a very specific event. It is not good exegesis to read into Scripture what we want to be there, when it's not what the Scripture is actually saying.

At no point is the laying on of hands (Chrismation) called "baptism with the Holy Spirit". That's simply not in the the text.



The three thousand who were added on that day are never described as being baptized with the Holy Spirit. They were converted and brought into the Church through the Sacrament of Holy Baptism.

There was only one outpouring of the Spirit on Pentecost, and it had nothing to do with the three thousand. I'm not sure where you are getting that, because Peter doesn't refer to those three thousand converts in his explanation of what happened in Joppa in Acts 11.



How did you reach that conclusion?



Oh I see. It is a stretch to say that these men must have been from the three thousand. That's a reach on your part. First, as you will recall, on Pentecost there were 120 gathered in the upper room. Also, remember, the three thousand were Jewish pilgrims to Jerusalem.

I will offer three alternative hypotheses:

1) Peter's words do not require that the men need to have experienced what happened on Pentecost; because what happened on Pentecost is not required to have received the Holy Spirit; as all who have faith in Christ have the Holy Spirit.

2) The "we" is a reference to Peter and the others who were present at Pentecost.

3) The men from Joppa were among the 120 gathered in the upper room.

I'd go with option 1 personally.



See above. I consider what you are doing to be a massive reach.



Means nothing more than the Christians who were in Jerusalem. Remembering again, the three thousand converts on Pentecost were pilgrims. It's entirely possible that some stayed, but many likely went back to their places of origin. And, further, many more converted in the period between Pentecost and Peter's vision. Again, I consider what you're doing to be a stretching, it's a reach--one I simply don't see as credible.



The "Us" being the Apostles and the others gathered in the upper room.

This has nothing to do with what is popular or not; but rather with what is exegetically sound. Your position is not exegetically sound, it is riddled with eisegesis and speculation.

-CryptoLUtheran

Great. Thanks.

I will respond to the above post in detail as soon as I have some extra time.

Blessings.
 
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