The implications of omniscience

[The Engineer]

Hello everyone.

There was a discussion here, some months ago, about whether an object with an infinite property (a hotel with an infinite number of rooms, for example) could exist. I don't know exactly who participated in it, but I know that one of the persons who claimed that such an object couldn't exist was a Christian apologist.

What I want to show you is that no one who proposes the existence of an omniscient God can simultaneously propose that the existence of an object with an infinite property would be illogical.

Omniscience is (a) the ability to know everything one chooses to know or (b) the ability to actually know absolutely everything. The definition you choose is ultimately unimportant, but I still wanted to mention both of them.

Let's start with definition (b), for the sake of clarity. If you know absolutely everything, this also means that you know yourself. Let's call this ability absolute introspection. With absolute introspection, you know every single one of your thought processes, including the very process of introspection.

The process of introspection doesn't inherently include the results of said introspection, but it includes all the raw data that is being processed. Among this raw data is the introspection that is being processed, which, in turn, includes the raw data of yet another introspection. To cut a long story short, absolute introspection gives you an infinite loop.

I guess most people know what happens when a computer algorithm yields an infinite loop: It crashes the computer. That's because a computer, having a finite capacity, can't handle an infinite amount of data. This happens with every computer, no matter how good it is, which is why programmers go to such lengths to make sure not to get infinite loops.

For your computer (or brain, or God, or whatever) to handle infinite data, it would need to have an infinite capacity. If you deny that an object with an infinite property (capacity, in this case) can exist, you also deny that an omniscient God could exist.

Using definition (a) instead of (b) ultimately makes no difference, because the being in question can't know anything it chooses to know if it can't handle the infinite data it gets when it decides to know its own thought processes

So, what do you guys think? Does this make sense to you?

 

[Received]

I guess God ain't omniscient in the way you have in mind. (Beautifully articulated thread, btw).

And this might be quibbling, but I understand theologians (the good ones anyways) to stick with the morphology of the term: knowledge over all. "All" here presumably means something other than God's self -- which doesn't exclude knowledge of God's self, whatever that is, but doesn't mean omniscience entails the rigorous introspective knowledge spoken of the OP.

This thread also, I think, does a good job of pointing out limitations in language as people use it. You know, none of this "omni-" talk is anywhere in any book of the Bible (or to my knowledge any other holy book). The omnifying of God is a product of human imagination. We get in trouble when we define God as omnipotent or omniscient because the specifications implied in our *use* of the term (not necessarily the morphology of the term) go beyond what we tend to mean when we put the terms together. So, like, we define omniscience as God's ability to see everything -- but that would run into the problem of the OP; when in fact it's better understood as knowledge over all. Likewise with omnipotence.

 

[elopez]

So, what do you guys think? Does this make sense to you?

Yes. Though is your only point that one who claims to believe in an omniscient God must also say He is infinite?

 

[The Engineer]

I guess God ain't omniscient in the way you have in mind. (Beautifully articulated thread, btw).

Thanks.

And this might be quibbling, but I understand theologians (the good ones anyways) to stick with the morphology of the term: knowledge over all. "All" here presumably means something other than God's self -- which doesn't exclude knowledge of God's self, whatever that is, but doesn't mean omniscience entails the rigorous introspective knowledge spoken of the OP.

So God knows everything aside from himself and he has knowledge of himself/self-consciousness/introspection/whatever you want to call it, but not necessarily absolute introspection? Sounds reasonable.

This thread also, I think, does a good job of pointing out limitations in language as people use it. You know, none of this "omni-" talk is anywhere in any book of the Bible (or to my knowledge any other holy book).

I already suspected this. Good to have it confirmed by someone who knows the Bible better than I do.

The omnifying of God is a product of human imagination. We get in trouble when we define God as omnipotent or omniscient because the specifications implied in our *use* of the term (not necessarily the morphology of the term) go beyond what we tend to mean when we put the terms together.

So, like, we define omniscience as God's ability to see everything -- but that would run into the problem of the OP; when in fact it's better understood as knowledge over all. Likewise with omnipotence.

Again, this sounds reasonable. Looks like a valid alternative to 'real' omniscience to me.

Yes. Though is your only point that one who claims to believe in an omniscient God must also say He is infinite?

Actually, yes. I just wanted to know if my reasoning was okay.

 

[Received]

I would even question whether something like absolute introspection is possible for anyone, much less God. Precisely because it involves an actual infinite (i.e., an infinite number of rooms).